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Wild-Bill

macrumors 68030
Jan 10, 2007
2,539
617
bleep
Intel GPUs = FAIL. (it's science....)

Intel integrated GPU's:


  • Have sucked
  • STILL suck
  • Will ALWAYS suck.
It's a shame Apple couldn't figure out a way to get around having to use the sucktaculor Intel "HD" 3000 series GPU in the upcoming MBA.

I will most definitely be waiting for reviews before I decide whether or not to upgrade.
 

mutsaers-vr.nl

macrumors 6502
Jan 10, 2008
347
4
The Netherlands
Maybe Apple made a "get arround solution" you don't know. Just lets wait till Juli the 13th and we will know more :)

Intel integrated GPU's:


  • Have sucked
  • STILL suck
  • Will ALWAYS suck.
It's a shame Apple couldn't figure out a way to get around having to use the sucktaculor Intel "HD" 3000 series GPU in the upcoming MBA.

I will most definitely be waiting for reviews before I decide whether or not to upgrade.
 

Figs

macrumors newbie
Mar 1, 2011
6
0
As people have said before, GPU hindrance is a bigger "obstacle" than the CPU nowadays.

Consider you that the current MBA combo of C2D and 320m has a score of 60/40 (60 for CPU and 40 for GPU). Now, lets say that the score of 60 in the CPU is capable of doing everything we can, and the 40 in the GPU is enough for our needs.
Now what sandy bridge does is offset the balance.
The 60 in the CPU score becomes a 80 and the 40 in the GPU score becomes a 20. Although both scores only got affected by 20 points, the difference between a 40 GPU and 20 GPU is the difference between playable and unplayable.

On the other hand, a score in the CPU of 60 and 80 are only marginal increases due to the fact that we can already do such tasks at a lower score.

Now considering that people might need more powerful CPUs, it is understandable that they might want an upgrade.
But mind you the lack of CPU power can be made up by the time.
Handbrake on a Sandy Bridge might take 20 minutes to encode a video, while on the core2duo it might take 60 minutes.
The difference is 40 minutes, a matter of time, but in the GPU case, the difference between the 320M and the 3000HD cannot be made by time.

Just because you let your 3000HD get used to the game settings does not mean it will run better over a certain period of time. Engineers always try to find the point where is perfect to sacrifice enough, but still gaining enough. That means, they will find a price point where it can suffice the needs of the general population. Whether you fit in the general population is another question.

My biggest concern is the fact that GPU cannot use time as a make up for the lack of power, while the CPU can. For those who say that the 3000HD does not suck, it might not for your needs, but I believe that the GPU trade off for CPU power will be a downgrade to most amount of users. People play more games than they encode. People play more games than they use w/e task that requires a SB processor.

Also, as I have mentioned before, why are we so hypocritical about GPU users? People keep saying that one should not use the MBA as a gaming machine, which is capable of, but instead they want a faster, stronger, better processor. Couldn't I ask the same thing? Why would you need such a good CPU?

Apple, by upgrading to the sandy bridge processors knows that is downgrading to a certain extent, but in order to keep the stock holders happy and keep the revenue up, they must take a step. whether is a step forward or backward, the general population will see a stronger CPU as a step forward, thus buying more MBAs. I hope that the macrumors community knows better than that.

Furthermore, we do know that at some point we must use the Sandy Bridge processors since the C2Ds are running out. Do we like it? Definitely not. But we must know that intel is playing dirty business tricks, and is trying to catch up to the Nvidia 320m which is a few years old driver. We should complain about Intel creating bottlenecks for the advancement of technology and not argue whether Intel 3000HD sucks or not. It does suck, but dont get me wrong, we should blame Intel than each other.

I hope I made a clear point. Thank you.

Thank you. Very well explained. Some people just don't seem to get it, there are really overzealous fans out there who will fight tooth and nail to defend Apple (or Intel I guess you can say as well) without listening to reason. Companies make mistakes, they put out disappointing products/upgrades from time to time, you don't have the obligation to defend them for everything they do. It's no wonder the term "Apple fanboy" is thrown around in such a condescending manner. Most people notice and apprehend bad decisions when they're made, but there are unfortunately others who would camp outside the Apple store to be first in line for a brand new Macbook Pro with Pentium III processor, 256MB of RAM, and 54 minute battery life if Steve tells them it's thin and shiny.
 

shurcooL

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2011
950
142
I just wanna point this out, but if you wanna do some gaming, why not pick up a wireless Xbox controller (or a Logitech equivalent) and fire up OnLive? I know that's what I'm gonna be doing. MBA is just made for it. :D

Of course, I would prefer if the new MBA got SB and something better than Intel 3000, but as long as it's performing at least close to the level of 9400/320M, I'll be okay. I'm more interested in 3D performance in OS X rather than Windows anyway.
 

Duke15

macrumors 6502
May 18, 2011
332
0
Canada
As people have said before, GPU hindrance is a bigger "obstacle" than the CPU nowadays.

Consider you that the current MBA combo of C2D and 320m has a score of 60/40 (60 for CPU and 40 for GPU). Now, lets say that the score of 60 in the CPU is capable of doing everything we can, and the 40 in the GPU is enough for our needs.
Now what sandy bridge does is offset the balance.
The 60 in the CPU score becomes a 80 and the 40 in the GPU score becomes a 20. Although both scores only got affected by 20 points, the difference between a 40 GPU and 20 GPU is the difference between playable and unplayable.

On the other hand, a score in the CPU of 60 and 80 are only marginal increases due to the fact that we can already do such tasks at a lower score.

Now considering that people might need more powerful CPUs, it is understandable that they might want an upgrade.
But mind you the lack of CPU power can be made up by the time.
Handbrake on a Sandy Bridge might take 20 minutes to encode a video, while on the core2duo it might take 60 minutes.
The difference is 40 minutes, a matter of time, but in the GPU case, the difference between the 320M and the 3000HD cannot be made by time.

Just because you let your 3000HD get used to the game settings does not mean it will run better over a certain period of time. Engineers always try to find the point where is perfect to sacrifice enough, but still gaining enough. That means, they will find a price point where it can suffice the needs of the general population. Whether you fit in the general population is another question.

My biggest concern is the fact that GPU cannot use time as a make up for the lack of power, while the CPU can. For those who say that the 3000HD does not suck, it might not for your needs, but I believe that the GPU trade off for CPU power will be a downgrade to most amount of users. People play more games than they encode. People play more games than they use w/e task that requires a SB processor.

Also, as I have mentioned before, why are we so hypocritical about GPU users? People keep saying that one should not use the MBA as a gaming machine, which is capable of, but instead they want a faster, stronger, better processor. Couldn't I ask the same thing? Why would you need such a good CPU?

Apple, by upgrading to the sandy bridge processors knows that is downgrading to a certain extent, but in order to keep the stock holders happy and keep the revenue up, they must take a step. whether is a step forward or backward, the general population will see a stronger CPU as a step forward, thus buying more MBAs. I hope that the macrumors community knows better than that.

Furthermore, we do know that at some point we must use the Sandy Bridge processors since the C2Ds are running out. Do we like it? Definitely not. But we must know that intel is playing dirty business tricks, and is trying to catch up to the Nvidia 320m which is a few years old driver. We should complain about Intel creating bottlenecks for the advancement of technology and not argue whether Intel 3000HD sucks or not. It does suck, but dont get me wrong, we should blame Intel than each other.

I hope I made a clear point. Thank you.

Agreed, I think we'd all love to see upgraded CPUs along with upgraded GPU's, no one wants to go backwards or maintain the same performance. We're always looking for better performance, even if the machine we have suits our needs. Like you said, it seems like apples hand is being forced in this situatuitionn which sucks. Maybe the HD3000 wont suck, for all we know it could be a bit better, or on par with the 320m. We can look at other machine using similar chips but as we dont know which chip they will be using, or how it will perform with OSX, until the product actually comes out and the reviews are up we should just be happy that there is a refresh comming, if it sucks than ppl can stick with the 2010 model if not than we can get the 2011 model.
 

samroberto

macrumors member
Apr 22, 2008
39
0
coming from 9400m

Hey all,

I've had no first hand experience with the Intel 3000, but have been following most of these new MBA threads closely.

Coming from a 2009 15" MBP, 2.53 C2D, 4gb, Nvidia 9400m.. When I game, which is occasional, I play WoW and AOE III. I can play AOE III on highest settings on a 19" external with little to no problems.

If I could do that with the new MBA ? I'd be a happy camper. I'm not up to date on the latest computer gaming, because when I do game it's more likely xBox 360 anyways... In fact I could probably buy an MBA 13" ultimate right now and be happy switching to it as my sole machine (from 2009 MBP) except perhaps screen size (I'm still deciding about that..).

But with all these rumours on the horizon, I've got the latest greatest bug. :D So I'm awaiting next week before I potentially snag an MBA.

So what do you guys think?? Intel HD 3000 >> Nvidia 9400m ??
 

tbobmccoy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2007
969
219
Austin, TX
Hey all,

I've had no first hand experience with the Intel 3000, but have been following most of these new MBA threads closely.

Coming from a 2009 15" MBP, 2.53 C2D, 4gb, Nvidia 9400m.. When I game, which is occasional, I play WoW and AOE III. I can play AOE III on highest settings on a 19" external with little to no problems.

If I could do that with the new MBA ? I'd be a happy camper. I'm not up to date on the latest computer gaming, because when I do game it's more likely xBox 360 anyways... In fact I could probably buy an MBA 13" ultimate right now and be happy switching to it as my sole machine (from 2009 MBP) except perhaps screen size (I'm still deciding about that..).

But with all these rumours on the horizon, I've got the latest greatest bug. :D So I'm awaiting next week before I potentially snag an MBA.

So what do you guys think?? Intel HD 3000 >> Nvidia 9400m ??

From all reports, yes. It should be between the 9400m and newer 320m. Your use should be fine on the new MBAs.
 

mediasorcerer

macrumors regular
Oct 30, 2010
157
1
Defend hd3000 all you want,fact is,regardless of cpu,its a retrograde step.

That is unacceptable,end of story.I couldnt care less what the excuses are from apple or intel,the laptop is made for the consumer,not the company who produces it,and if the consumer demands adequate gpu performance ,then it should be given,that was the case for the 15mbpro, and apple gave what was requested,better ati gpu,s.so whats the excuse then for the mba? there is none.:mad::apple::mad::eek:
 

soapsudz

macrumors member
May 14, 2011
49
0
The Core 2 Duo processor in the previous MBAs might be a lot slower than the new Sandy Bridge units, but the Nvidia 320m GPU is a real gem :) The core clock runs at a default 450 MHz but it's easily overclocked to 600+ MHz in Windows. I can run the Mass Effect games at 1680x1050 at full detail without any hiccups. Try doing that with the HD3000.

This nails the issue:
My biggest concern is the fact that GPU cannot use time as a make up for the lack of power, while the CPU can. For those who say that the 3000HD does not suck, it might not for your needs, but I believe that the GPU trade off for CPU power will be a downgrade to most amount of users. People play more games than they encode. People play more games than they use w/e task that requires a SB processor.

I can wait a few minutes longer for an iMovie export but it's impossible to play a game at 10 fps - and an overclocked 320m would step all over the HD3000. Those frames per second don't add up, you need them right now ;)

I can only hope Apple uses AMD Fusion APU's in their next refresh or drop in a cheap, low-power discrete GPU for the MBAs and smaller MBPs.
 

reclusive46

macrumors 65816
Apr 14, 2011
1,120
62
Canada
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/9A5248d Safari/6533.18.5)

Apart from gaming, the chip is a lot better than 320m.
 

tbobmccoy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2007
969
219
Austin, TX
Really want a new Air but I don't want one that sucks.

Need a real GPU

Why not stick to your iMac for games? It'll outperform any MacBook Air released for several years anyway. The Air IS NOT built for gaming and now that Nvidia is legally prevented from pairing their IGPs with Core ix processors, the Air won't have a decent gfx card for gaming till Intel starts to invest in their IGP department.
 

sporadicMotion

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2008
1,111
23
Your girlfriends place
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Flame away children but the 320m is not a good GPU either. It's marginally better at doing things it ultimately sucks at as well. Like I said before, not a gamer but why this zealot love for a piece of hardware that's not particulary great an anything (yes, just like the GPU following)

So here's my question.

Why would a gamer buy a MacBook Air when there are plenty of better machines for this? Why? Explain. Logically. I want an Apple logo on the back of my display is not a relevant Answer.
 

XX55XX

macrumors regular
May 17, 2009
147
0
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Flame away children but the 320m is not a good GPU either. It's marginally better at doing things it ultimately sucks at as well. Like I said before, not a gamer but why this zealot love for a piece of hardware that's not particulary great an anything (yes, just like the GPU following)

So here's my question.

Why would a gamer buy a MacBook Air when there are plenty of better machines for this? Why? Explain. Logically. I want an Apple logo on the back of my display is not a relevant Answer.

People have claimed that they want to do "light" gaming. Apparently the 320m is more capable, for some reason.

Granted, I think the opposition to the HD 3000 is largely psychological. People always want "faster" and "better" technology in their notebooks, even though their notebooks' CPUs are idle 90% of the time. Nobody wants inferior silicon in their notebook, even if they might not use it. Plus, people here do pay a hefty premium for their machines...
 

tbobmccoy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2007
969
219
Austin, TX
People have claimed that they want to do "light" gaming. Apparently the 320m is more capable, for some reason.

Granted, I think the opposition to the HD 3000 is largely psychological. People always want "faster" and "better" technology in their notebooks, even though their notebooks' CPUs are idle 90% of the time. Nobody wants inferior silicon in their notebook, even if they might not use it. Plus, people here do pay a hefty premium for their machines...

The premium on the air is for size, not graphical power. That's the entire point and why the hd3000 is a net plus: size. It's also why you'll never see a discrete gfx card in an air: it's too big and battery draining. The HD3000 will be good enough for 90% of users, and the others shouldn't have bought an air in the first place.
 

sporadicMotion

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2008
1,111
23
Your girlfriends place
The premium on the air is for size, not graphical power. That's the entire point and why the hd3000 is a net plus: size. It's also why you'll never see a discrete gfx card in an air: it's too big and battery draining. The HD3000 will be good enough for 90% of users, and the others shouldn't have bought an air in the first place.

Someone gets it :p

I'm really excited about the new CPU's. The Air is what I've wanted for a while based on the design and the fact that I really don't need the optical drive. The problem has been the garbage CPU's available for ultraportables. Handbrake is such a weak example for CPU power because it's a click the button and wait for a process kind of application.

Applications that require grunt on the fly (such as Logic Pro) have been useable but on such a low level that most professionals and serious hobbyists couldn't consider it... this is a more appropriate world situation with a CPU.

Not saying anyone should use an Air as a primary number cruncher but now it can do it well if it's necessary... and that is far more useful in an ultraportable than a lackluster GPU.
 

Oppressed

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2010
1,265
10
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Flame away children but the 320m is not a good GPU either. It's marginally better at doing things it ultimately sucks at as well. Like I said before, not a gamer but why this zealot love for a piece of hardware that's not particulary great an anything (yes, just like the GPU following)

So here's my question.

Why would a gamer buy a MacBook Air when there are plenty of better machines for this? Why? Explain. Logically. I want an Apple logo on the back of my display is not a relevant Answer.

You answer has been given multiple times in this thread alone. Plus people are not expressing "zealot love" for the 320m as much as the disappointment in the downgrading GPU in the next refresh. There are many discrete cards better then the 320m, but HD 3000 is not one of them.

So many extremists on these forums.
 

sporadicMotion

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2008
1,111
23
Your girlfriends place
You answer has been given multiple times in this thread alone. Plus people are not expressing "zealot love" for the 320m as much as the disappointment in the downgrading GPU in the next refresh. There are many discrete cards better then the 320m, but HD 3000 is not one of them.

No it hasn't. People have just whined about the GPU's. Not one good answer as to why they use a MBA for gaming when there are many other options that will actually work.

So many extremists on these forums.

Yeah I know!

They are so into having a MacBook Air that they won't even consider buying something that might do the job they want.
 

Oppressed

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2010
1,265
10
Really? You mean no one has yet mentioned that they like to do casual gaming while having a computer that is also an ultraportable? You mean no one has mentioned that they don't want to play crysis 2 on a MBA, but are fine playing some older games?
 

sporadicMotion

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2008
1,111
23
Your girlfriends place
Really? You mean no one has yet mentioned that they like to do casual gaming while having a computer that is also an ultraportable? You mean no one has mentioned that they don't want to play crysis 2 on a MBA, but are fine playing some older games?

That's just it. Then why buy the MacBook Air? The games being used as examples show that they both suck. Why not buy an ultraportable that's designed to play or actually has the grunt to do it? Only apple fanboyism will stop someone from doing this.

Alienware M11x is designed for this... why not get that?
 

XX55XX

macrumors regular
May 17, 2009
147
0
Really? You mean no one has yet mentioned that they like to do casual gaming while having a computer that is also an ultraportable? You mean no one has mentioned that they don't want to play crysis 2 on a MBA, but are fine playing some older games?

Casual gaming has many connotations.

For example, any old Intel Atom netbook will run games from ten years ago just fine. Does that make Intel Atom netbooks "casual gaming machines," then?

There is a reason why full-sized notebooks exist, you know...
 

Sinnthetic

macrumors member
Jun 12, 2011
38
0
That's just it. Then why buy the MacBook Air? The games being used as examples show that they both suck. Why not buy an ultraportable that's designed to play or actually has the grunt to do it? Only apple fanboyism will stop someone from doing this.

Alienware M11x is designed for this... why not get that?


This, oh god this.

If you wanna game then get the Alienware M11x its the same damn price.

I'm going to be grabbing my new refreshed Air for college this upcoming fall.
 

Oppressed

macrumors 65816
Aug 15, 2010
1,265
10
Casual gaming has many connotations.

For example, any old Intel Atom netbook will run games from ten years ago just fine. Does that make Intel Atom netbooks "casual gaming machines," then?

If your desire is to play games from ten years ago and the Atom netbook satisfies your need then who is to say you are wrong?

If people want to play TF2 or SC2 and the MBA works just fine for these game then who is to say they are wrong?

If people want to play Crysis 2 or Witcher 2, then I'm sure that they will find a machine thats right for them.

Are these people who play games? Yes, then they are all gamers. Do I think the MBA is meant for hardcore gamers? No.

There is a reason why full-sized notebooks exist, you know...

I do not find full sized notebooks comfortable to carry around on personal and business trips. Does that mean I cannot play games on my trips?

In short: Not everything is black and white.

If you wanna game then get the Alienware M11x its the same damn price.

Simply adding a SSD to an M11x off alienware's site makes it $1700.00. I could add a third party SSD to it for cheaper, but then again M11x is not really an ultra portable that people do seek.
 
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