iOS 11.4 locking port

[1252]

Hi,
I'm confused as it is not clear if the USB blocking was enabled or not?

I lock my iPad and iPhone only when traveling, so bot devices were locked last year.
The iPhone is connected to computer only when transferring music and this happens once in 2-3 month.
The iPad was NEVER connected to the computer. What now?

 

[martyjmclean]

Hi,
I'm confused as it is not clear if the USB blocking was enabled or not?

I lock my iPad and iPhone only when traveling, so bot devices were locked last year.
The iPhone is connected to computer only when transferring music and this happens once in 2-3 month.
The iPad was NEVER connected to the computer. What now?

iOS 11.4 enables USB Restricted Mode if your device hasn't been unlocked in seven days.
If you're connecting your device to your computer, iTunes always asks for your device to be unlocked - USB Restricted Mode is obviously disabled.
If you don't have a passcode on your device, any thief or hacker can access your device - making USB Restricted Mode redundant since they don't need a computer or GreyKey box.

 

[1252]

iOS 11.4 enables USB Restricted Mode if your device hasn't been unlocked in seven days.
If you're connecting your device to your computer, iTunes always asks for your device to be unlocked - USB Restricted Mode is obviously disabled.
If you don't have a passcode on your device, any thief or hacker can access your device - making USB Restricted Mode redundant since they don't need a computer or GreyKey box.

OK Marty, now I gett the point. Thank you.

 

[Martyimac]

iOS 11.4 enables USB Restricted Mode if your device hasn't been unlocked in seven days.
If you're connecting your device to your computer, iTunes always asks for your device to be unlocked - USB Restricted Mode is obviously disabled.
If you don't have a passcode on your device, any thief or hacker can access your device - making USB Restricted Mode redundant since they don't need a computer or GreyKey box.

Would you please link the official Apple page where you got this information please?

 

[bookemdano]

iOS 11.4 enables USB Restricted Mode if your device hasn't been unlocked in seven days.
If you're connecting your device to your computer, iTunes always asks for your device to be unlocked - USB Restricted Mode is obviously disabled.
If you don't have a passcode on your device, any thief or hacker can access your device - making USB Restricted Mode redundant since they don't need a computer or GreyKey box.

Please state your source for this info. If you haven't read the earlier posts in this thead, please do so.

 

[Martyimac]

Did a quick scan of the security updates in 11.4 and if the USB lockout was in there I missed it. Anybody else find it?

 

[cynics]

Vast majority of us will never notice this feature. There will always be hacks and cracks for iOS, Apple just made an obvious hole mildly more difficult to exploit. There is still 7 days to crack the device. When services and devices become available for iOS easy hacking Apple needs to do something about it.

If your device isn’t unlocked for 7 days the lightning port won’t transfer data. However it will still charge. You’ll need to unplug it, unlock it and plug it back in. At least that was how it functioned in 11.3 betas.

On a trusted computer the iOS device could have still been backed up while locked. If the trusted system is spoofed then the back up just needs to be cracked at the crackers leisure. However with USB restriction mode there is a finite time the partition can be backed up.

Also unlimited cracks can’t be attempted through DFU restores (if that’s even still a thing) with the USB locked.

Aside from extreme and strange circumstances this should only be a problem for hackers and those attempting questionable behavior to peoples civil liberties. Many of us don’t appreciate the rights our respective countries grant us and features like this force privacy on those unfortunate enough to not be granted such rights by their government.

Since Apple is tight lipped with security features and functions without not unlocking one of my iOS devices for 7 days (unlikely) I dont have a way to say for certain if it was implemented with 11.4.

Again this is only if you don't successful unlock the devices for 7 days, and even then you just need to unlock it before data can be transferred via the lightning port. AND the device will still charge, so if you dont use it and the battery dies, no worries, plug it in and charge it and then unlock it like you always would. I'm trying to think of ways this could mess with a DFU restore but if the device is at that point there might not be data to recover and/or USB restriction being enable (assuming iOS has failed, but I never investigated what is controlling this lock down in iOS).

 

[Thor_1]

When you say unlock, do you mean with passcode or finger print.

I very rarely, almost never, hook up a phone to a computer.

 

[bookemdano]

Vast majority of us will never notice this feature. There will always be hacks and cracks for iOS, Apple just made an obvious hole mildly more difficult to exploit. There is still 7 days to crack the device. When services and devices become available for iOS easy hacking Apple needs to do something about it.

If your device isn’t unlocked for 7 days the lightning port won’t transfer data. However it will still charge. You’ll need to unplug it, unlock it and plug it back in. At least that was how it functioned in 11.3 betas.

On a trusted computer the iOS device could have still been backed up while locked. If the trusted system is spoofed then the back up just needs to be cracked at the crackers leisure. However with USB restriction mode there is a finite time the partition can be backed up.

Also unlimited cracks can’t be attempted through DFU restores (if that’s even still a thing) with the USB locked.

Aside from extreme and strange circumstances this should only be a problem for hackers and those attempting questionable behavior to peoples civil liberties. Many of us don’t appreciate the rights our respective countries grant us and features like this force privacy on those unfortunate enough to not be granted such rights by their government.

Since Apple is tight lipped with security features and functions without not unlocking one of my iOS devices for 7 days (unlikely) I dont have a way to say for certain if it was implemented with 11.4.

Again this is only if you don't successful unlock the devices for 7 days, and even then you just need to unlock it before data can be transferred via the lightning port. AND the device will still charge, so if you dont use it and the battery dies, no worries, plug it in and charge it and then unlock it like you always would. I'm trying to think of ways this could mess with a DFU restore but if the device is at that point there might not be data to recover and/or USB restriction being enable (assuming iOS has failed, but I never investigated what is controlling this lock down in iOS).

Like so many others who have posted similar posts, on what are you basing the info you just stated? On articles that appeared last month in the press?

The current reality is that there is absolutely no evidence of USB Restricted Mode being added to the 11.4 beta or the final release. All the press accounts about this were sourced from an Elcomsoft blog post at the beginning of May which even they have walked back.

So at this point it seems pretty useless to be talking about who is affected by a feature that doesn't even appear to exist. If you have information that proves it does exist in 11.4, by all means please share it. But just note that all the articles you'll find online about this were from 3-4 weeks ago and they all had the same dubious source.

 

[cynics]

Like so many others who have posted similar posts, on what are you basing the info you just stated? On articles that appeared last month in the press?

The current reality is that there is absolutely no evidence of USB Restricted Mode being added to the 11.4 beta or the final release. All the press accounts about this were sourced from an Elcomsoft blog post at the beginning of May which even they have walked back.

So at this point it seems pretty useless to be talking about who is affected by a feature that doesn't even appear to exist. If you have information that proves it does exist in 11.4, by all means please share it. But just note that all the articles you'll find online about this were from 3-4 weeks ago and they all had the same dubious source.

I said....

“At least that was how it functioned in iOS 11.3 betas”

Which can be found in the dev notes of iOS 11.3 betas.



You can likely find more info on the dev pages or at least the notes with a google search. “allowUSBRestrictedmode” might help too.

“Since Apple is tight lipped with security features and functions without not unlocking one of my iOS devices for 7 days (unlikely) I dont have a way to say for certain if it was implemented with 11.4.“

I thought I was fairly clear I was unaware of its current implementation. But again I’m not sure if it’s functional or not nor do I can to try it since all my devices are on the gm now.

 

[bookemdano]

I said....

“At least that was how it functioned in iOS 11.3 betas”

Which can be found in the dev notes of iOS 11.3 betas.

View attachment 764161

You can likely find more info on the dev pages or at least the notes with a google search. “allowUSBRestrictedmode” might help too.

“Since Apple is tight lipped with security features and functions without not unlocking one of my iOS devices for 7 days (unlikely) I dont have a way to say for certain if it was implemented with 11.4.“

I thought I was fairly clear I was unaware of its current implementation. But again I’m not sure if it’s functional or not nor do I can to try it since all my devices are on the gm now.

Thanks, and apologies for my harsh tone earlier. Just getting frustrating that there's still no confirmation (official or otherwise) from people who would otherwise know (including GreyShift who must surely know by now if 11.4 disables their hack or not).

I still feel it's highly unlikely Apple snuck this feature into the 11.4 beta without any word on their dev site about it. Like any other feature, I would think it would need testing from beta testers to make sure it didn't cause unexpected/unintended issues.

What's sort of interesting is in the 11.4.1 thread someone posted there's a new toggle in the passcode/faceid settings called "USB Accessories". Not sure if that figures into "USB Restricted Mode" or not, but my hope is that once USB Restricted Mode is deployed, Apple will provide an opt-out for people like me (I have a hidden cellular iPad in my vehicle connected by USB to the stereo so I can use Apple Music in the car. I do not want to have to dig it out once a week to unlock it so the USB port will stay active).

 

[cynics]

Thanks, and apologies for my harsh tone earlier. Just getting frustrating that there's still no confirmation (official or otherwise) from people who would otherwise know (including GreyShift who must surely know by now if 11.4 disables their hack or not).

I still feel it's highly unlikely Apple snuck this feature into the 11.4 beta without any word on their dev site about it. Like any other feature, I would think it would need testing from beta testers to make sure it didn't cause unexpected/unintended issues.

What's sort of interesting is in the 11.4.1 thread someone posted there's a new toggle in the passcode/faceid settings called "USB Accessories". Not sure if that figures into "USB Restricted Mode" or not, but my hope is that once USB Restricted Mode is deployed, Apple will provide an opt-out for people like me (I have a hidden cellular iPad in my vehicle connected by USB to the stereo so I can use Apple Music in the car. I do not want to have to dig it out once a week to unlock it so the USB port will stay active).

Its no problem. I just figured you skimmed my post lol.

I did some checking though. And you are correct, USB restricted mode in iOS 11.3 betas was removed for the public released of 11.4.

iOS 11.4.1 betas reintroduce it. Not only is it a restriction within the MDM protocol for admins but there is a user accessible toggle like you mentioned. It has also been ramped up too. In 11.3 there was "some" data that would talk to iTunes to identify the device and tell you to unlock it. Now its completely silent, no USB communication at all. Also the 7 days before the USB locks has been reduced to 1 hour.

Edit: For the sake of our sanity I found a very recent blog post from Elcomsoft.

https://blog.elcomsoft.com/2018/06/ios-11-4-1-beta-usb-restricted-mode-has-arrived/

 

[Martyimac]

Its no problem. I just figured you skimmed my post lol.

I did some checking though. And you are correct, USB restricted mode in iOS 11.3 betas was removed for the public released of 11.4.

iOS 11.4.1 betas reintroduce it. Not only is it a restriction within the MDM protocol for admins but there is a user accessible toggle like you mentioned. It has also been ramped up too. In 11.3 there was "some" data that would talk to iTunes to identify the device and tell you to unlock it. Now its completely silent, no USB communication at all. Also the 7 days before the USB locks has been reduced to 1 hour.

Edit: For the sake of our sanity I found a very recent blog post from Elcomsoft.

https://blog.elcomsoft.com/2018/06/ios-11-4-1-beta-usb-restricted-mode-has-arrived/

I'm sure bookemdano will post up but as for me, I appreciate the effort and the info. I still wish we had something from  but since it doesn't seem to be in 11.4, it would make sense for nothing to be said about it.
I seem to remember that an elomsoft.com article started this whole discussion. Are they trustworthy?

 

[cynics]

I'm sure bookemdano will post up but as for me, I appreciate the effort and the info. I still wish we had something from  but since it doesn't seem to be in 11.4, it would make sense for nothing to be said about it.
I seem to remember that an elomsoft.com article started this whole discussion. Are they trustworthy?

I wouldn’t “trust” self appointed white hats. But as far as overall reliable information there is evidence of what they are talking about outside their that blog.

 

[bookemdano]

Hmm, interesting, but Elcomsoft is not a reliable source IMHO. They never actually issued any kind of definitive correction to their previous blog post, the one that was picked up by tons of media outlets citing them as their only source. Even today if you look on Google News for USB Restricted Mode, no one has ever corrected their erroneous articles based on erroneous info. Gizmodo is the only one. Furthermore, Elcomsoft just muddies the waters even more. In this newest blog post they state:

While we had reasons to believe it would be included with iOS 11.4, Apple skipped it in iOS 11.4, replacing it instead with a toned-down version that would require unlocking the iOS device after 24 hours in order for it to communicate with a USB accessory.

How is that "toned-down"? If the 11.3 lockout period was 7 days and the 11.4 lockout period is 24 hours, I fail to see how that is anything other than more restrictive.

Furthermore, are they actually stating that the 24-hour lockout is present in the GM of 11.4? I thought maybe they were referring to 11.4.1 in that paragraph but the very next one states:

The “proper” USB Restricted Mode, the one that would completely shut down all data communications between the iOS device and the computer, was still missing in iOS 11.4. Only to reappear – in a much refined form – in iOS 11.4.1 beta.

So they seem to be saying that the 11.4 release does lock out the USB port after 24 hours, and 11.4.1 makes it even more restrictive by completely shutting down any communication on the USB port after the same time period. And if that is true, there's no toggle to prevent locking the USB port in 11.4, only in 11.4.1. If that's actually true then I will not be updating my car ipad to 11.4. But I still suspect they're confused. Surely someone by now would know if they have to unlock their phone every 24 hours to use their USB car connection or other USB-based accessory.

I really hope Ars Technica or some other reliable source is working on an article to clear all of this up. Elcomsoft already shot their "benefit of the doubt" with their previous blog post debacle (which they never apologized for and even attacked Gizmodo for pointing it out). I no longer trust them as a primary source on anything.

 

[temna]

But according to all the "rumors" , and that includes the most current articles, that is what is going to change. You will HAVE to connect to a computer once every seven days or the lockout will occur. That's what this thread is all about.

Wrong.. They would never require that.. And unlocking the phone will reactivate the USB port like normail.

 

[cynics]

Hmm, interesting, but Elcomsoft is not a reliable source IMHO. They never actually issued any kind of definitive correction to their previous blog post, the one that was picked up by tons of media outlets citing them as their only source. Even today if you look on Google News for USB Restricted Mode, no one has ever corrected their erroneous articles based on erroneous info. Gizmodo is the only one. Furthermore, Elcomsoft just muddies the waters even more. In this newest blog post they state:



How is that "toned-down"? If the 11.3 lockout period was 7 days and the 11.4 lockout period is 24 hours, I fail to see how that is anything other than more restrictive.

Furthermore, are they actually stating that the 24-hour lockout is present in the GM of 11.4? I thought maybe they were referring to 11.4.1 in that paragraph but the very next one states:



So they seem to be saying that the 11.4 release does lock out the USB port after 24 hours, and 11.4.1 makes it even more restrictive by completely shutting down any communication on the USB port after the same time period. And if that is true, there's no toggle to prevent locking the USB port in 11.4, only in 11.4.1. If that's actually true then I will not be updating my car ipad to 11.4. But I still suspect they're confused. Surely someone by now would know if they have to unlock their phone every 24 hours to use their USB car connection or other USB-based accessory.

I really hope Ars Technica or some other reliable source is working on an article to clear all of this up. Elcomsoft already shot their "benefit of the doubt" with their previous blog post debacle (which they never apologized for and even attacked Gizmodo for pointing it out). I no longer trust them as a primary source on anything.

I think the confusion is just because we aren't the typical audience for their "blog". Lol.

iOS 11.4 uses a type of USB restriction. I get this message even on a trusted computer after 24 hours of inactivity and/or a power cycle (anytime the iPad requires me to type my password).

The issue with this is obvious, the computer is talking to my "iPad", it knows its name that I removed for privacy and it knows its locked. You can also enter recovery mode from here. I can look at my USB ports and see the iPad connected as well obviously. This is a "toned down" USB restriction mode...

The "proper" usb restriction essentially shuts the port off for data communication at the device and a computer can only see a power draw from the USB.

 

[chrfr]

The issue with this is obvious, the computer is talking to my "iPad", it knows its name that I removed for privacy and it knows its locked. You can also enter recovery mode from here. I can look at my USB ports and see the iPad connected as well obviously. This is a "toned down" USB restriction mode...

The "proper" usb restriction essentially shuts the port off for data communication at the device and a computer can only see a power draw from the USB.

With the 11.4.1 beta, if you enable the USB restriction, the device doesn't do anything over USB. It doesn't charge, and it doesn't appear in System Information as a USB device at all. I'm not sure what happens when the battery goes dead when the device is in that state.

 

[cynics]

With the 11.4.1 beta, if you enable the USB restriction, the device doesn't do anything over USB. It doesn't charge, and it doesn't appear in System Information as a USB device at all. I'm not sure what happens when the battery goes dead when the device is in that state.

Sounds like the data pair of the USB (D+ and D-) aren't communicating at all. Is this your personal experience with the beta? Have you unplugged and plugged the device back in? What about trying an actual wall charger? Reboot?

iPhone data can be completely blocked without stopping the charging process. Charging profiles should be able to be used too (+500mA).

Mentioned in one of the above articles it was said the device needed to be unplugged and unlocked and plugged back in to communicate. I assumed Apple was blocking the data while using a different USB device class so a PC/Mac wouldn't even see it but charge it like a portable battery or something. Unlocking it would change the device class back to a device that requires specific software (aka iPhone and iTunes) finally plugging it back in would reinitiate the USB. That was just an assumption though.

Beta issues maybe? Does "USB Accessories" even mean the restricted mode we are talking about? Regardless charging is going to be a requirement for proper functionality.

 

[bookemdano]

Disconcerting that Apple implemented new behavior in 11.4 without documenting it anywhere and is leaving everyone to figure out themselves how it works. Does it treat USB car connections any differently than iTunes USB connections? If I update my car's iPad to 11.4 am I required to put my passcode in on that iPad every day in order for it to connect to my car?

Furthermore, in 11.14.1, if I disable the "USB Restriction", does that revert the behavior to 11.13 functionality or 11.14 functionality?

I'm petrified to update my iPad to 11.14 (Apple has stopped signing 11.13.1) because if this restriction is now in place it basically makes my car audio solution completely unusable.

 

[chrfr]

I'm petrified to update my iPad to 11.14 (Apple has stopped signing 11.13.1) because if this restriction is now in place it basically makes my car audio solution completely unusable.

First, you're confusing version numbers. 11.4 is the current version of iOS. There's no actual evidence that this lock is in 11.4 at this time.
How would this functionality make your car audio unusable? When you plug the phone into the car, unlock it once, and it'll work just like it always has. It won't stop working after an hour.
[doublepost=1528719721][/doublepost]

Is this your personal experience with the beta? Have you unplugged and plugged the device back in? What about trying an actual wall charger? Reboot?

I have not done extensive testing, but yes, that was my actual experience.

 

[bookemdano]

First, you're confusing version numbers. 11.4 is the current version of iOS. There's no actual evidence that this lock is in 11.4 at this time.
How would this functionality make your car audio unusable? When you plug the phone into the car, unlock it once, and it'll work just like it always has. It won't stop working after an hour.
[doublepost=1528719721][/doublepost]
I have not done extensive testing, but yes, that was my actual experience.

I am not confusing anything. I am referring to the Elcomsoft blog post linked above. They pretty clearly stated that there was indeed a change in USB behavior in the official release of 11.4 (and then further, even more restrictive changes in the 11.4.1 beta).

What maybe you missed was that I don't plug in and unplug this iPad--it stays plugged in inside my vehicle (mounted and hidden under a seat). It's connected by USB to my vehicle's audio head unit (which uses Apple's iAP (iPod Accessory Profile) to enable the playback of Apple Music, display of track titles, through the car's head unit interface, steering wheel buttons, etc.). Even though the iPad remains constantly plugged in, the car shuts off the entire audio system when the key is switched off (which disconnects the USB connection to the iPad).

My fear is that, with the supposed changes in 11.4 (not to mention 11.4.1) that when I switch the car back on a day or two later, it will attempt to reconnect the USB connection and fail because it's been >24 hours since it had been disconnected. I'd then have to pull it out from its mount and put in the passcode to enable that day's connection.

Surely you can see how untenable that situation would be. Since I can't flash back to 11.3.1 anymore, I am not going to flash 11.4 to test this for myself, which is why I've been trying to get anyone with actual knowledge of how this new restriction works to comment on whether or not it would affect my situation.

 

[cynics]

I am not confusing anything. I am referring to the Elcomsoft blog post linked above. They pretty clearly stated that there was indeed a change in USB behavior in the official release of 11.4 (and then further, even more restrictive changes in the 11.4.1 beta).

What maybe you missed was that I don't plug in and unplug this iPad--it stays plugged in inside my vehicle (mounted and hidden under a seat). It's connected by USB to my vehicle's audio head unit (which uses Apple's iAP (iPod Accessory Profile) to enable the playback of Apple Music, display of track titles, through the car's head unit interface, steering wheel buttons, etc.). Even though the iPad remains constantly plugged in, the car shuts off the entire audio system when the key is switched off (which disconnects the USB connection to the iPad).

My fear is that, with the supposed changes in 11.4 (not to mention 11.4.1) that when I switch the car back on a day or two later, it will attempt to reconnect the USB connection and fail because it's been >24 hours since it had been disconnected. I'd then have to pull it out from its mount and put in the passcode to enable that day's connection.

Surely you can see how untenable that situation would be. Since I can't flash back to 11.3.1 anymore, I am not going to flash 11.4 to test this for myself, which is why I've been trying to get anyone with actual knowledge of how this new restriction works to comment on whether or not it would affect my situation.

You should be able to toggle USB Accessories on in the 'Access while locked' section (in typical Apple fashion by using a oddly worded setting ON = USB restricted mode is off aka access is allowed while locked) and use the iPad as you are currently accustomed too.

If you wanted to experiment with it and your iPad is pain to unplug you can get a inline usb switch...





Or one that better fits your criteria so you power cycle it closer to the source. Combined with USB A elbow you maybe able to make cleaner setup. I would usually use a USB A extension however with a tight elbow and a dremeled slot with an elbow (although modern vehicles are filled with USB ports now a day).

 

[bookemdano]

You should be able to toggle USB Accessories on in the 'Access while locked' section (in typical Apple fashion by using a oddly worded setting ON = USB restricted mode is off aka access is allowed while locked) and use the iPad as you are currently accustomed too.

If you wanted to experiment with it and your iPad is pain to unplug you can get a inline usb switch...

View attachment 766414



Or one that better fits your criteria so you power cycle it closer to the source. Combined with USB A elbow you maybe able to make cleaner setup. I would usually use a USB A extension however with a tight elbow and a dremeled slot with an elbow (although modern vehicles are filled with USB ports now a day).

Thanks for your reply but I'm not quite sure how that helps me. My iPad already disconnects from the car's USB connection automatically each time the car's ignition is switched off each day (so to put it more accurately, the car disconnects the USB connection with the iPad). Then the next day (or often a couple of days later as I don't drive every day), the car reconnects that USB connection when I turn the ignition back on.

With USB restricted mode (which you seemed to indicate in an earlier post has already been partially implemented in 11.4 but without any toggle available in the "Access while locked" settings), when the car resumes the USB connection, the iPad is going to refuse to connect to it if it's been >24 hours since I turned the car off.

In what way does having an inline USB switch help solve that problem? It seems to me the only way to solve the problem at that point is to physically access the iPad's screen to type in my passcode. If the "USB Accessories" toggle does indeed completely disable this new functionality, great. But considering I can't flash back to 11.13.1 anymore I can't test it without the possibility of completely hosing my iPad for its intended purpose.

If I am misunderstanding your post please clarify if possible.

 

[cynics]

Thanks for your reply but I'm not quite sure how that helps me. My iPad already disconnects from the car's USB connection automatically each time the car's ignition is switched off each day (so to put it more accurately, the car disconnects the USB connection with the iPad). Then the next day (or often a couple of days later as I don't drive every day), the car reconnects that USB connection when I turn the ignition back on.

With USB restricted mode (which you seemed to indicate in an earlier post has already been partially implemented in 11.4 but without any toggle available in the "Access while locked" settings), when the car resumes the USB connection, the iPad is going to refuse to connect to it if it's been >24 hours since I turned the car off.

In what way does having an inline USB switch help solve that problem? It seems to me the only way to solve the problem at that point is to physically access the iPad's screen to type in my passcode. If the "USB Accessories" toggle does indeed completely disable this new functionality, great. But considering I can't flash back to 11.13.1 anymore I can't test it without the possibility of completely hosing my iPad for its intended purpose.

If I am misunderstanding your post please clarify if possible.

You are understanding correctly.

The suggestion for the switch was based on what I assumed was difficult accessing its plug which could be required once manually unlocked to reestablish the data connection (a faux unplug and plug back in if you will). Apologies if I misunderstood the problem.

What version of iOS are you on? I think you’ll need to wait till iOS 11.4.1/12 or be patient. If you haven’t already asking in the iOS 12 forum might help, if not pm me when the GM launches and I’ll test it for you.

And I thought I had integration problems. Lol

I need new iPads though but I’ll be thoroughly testing it eventually anyway.