iOS 17 to Support App Sideloading to Comply With European Regulations

[makitango]

They made the device to work they way they did. You own the device, and can do with it as you wish. The conflict here is that you expect Apple to make it work the way you want it to work. Which isn't the correct way to look at this issue. You can do whatever you are able to do with the device you purchased. You can't expect Apple or any company to make what you want to do with it easier when they did not make it that way to begin with. Hence it is their design, their platform, their intentions to make something to sell to the masses. You want it to work the way you want it to. Which is fine. But, you can't make Apple do it. Its wrong.

Wrong. Any employer can put in their contract that they are entitled to punching me after making a mistake at work. It is legal, yes, just not in my country. If Apple wants to do business in my country, they are wrong to do it, simple as that.
They are free to do funny things to the public (or in private) all they want, but only in a country which allows it.

 

[makitango]

Are you alright, mate? What is so bad about an economic zone where the regulators executed the will of the people and companies cannot steamroll as they please on the citizens and the environment?
We are literally not even removing the training wheels from our bikes, but giving us the choice to do so in one single market. We are not enabling developers to do things that they can't already do, inside or outside the App Store.

 

[dk001]

Are you alright, mate? What is so bad about an economic zone where the regulators executed the will of the people and companies cannot steamroll as they please on the citizens and the environment?
We are literally not even removing the training wheels from our bikes, but giving us the choice to do so in one single market. We are not enabling developers to do things that they can't already do, inside or outside the App Store.

@strongy has a history of disagree or angry if you are neutral or approve of this. I have been ignoring it.

 

[I7guy]

Are you alright, mate? What is so bad about an economic zone where the regulators executed the will of the people and companies cannot steamroll as they please on the citizens and the environment?
We are literally not even removing the training wheels from our bikes, but giving us the choice to do so in one single market. We are not enabling developers to do things that they can't already do, inside or outside the App Store.

Since I’m a tax paying and voting citizen my take is government is overstepping here. Of course if one doesn’t like the way apple is outfitting it’s hardware and managing its intellectual property, buy android.

 

[inuragon]

Looking at strongys posts and likes it seems like he thinks emulators are illegal, so not surprised he'd have a bad take on this too.
Shame he isn't posting though, that would be bit more fun.

 

[makitango]

Since I’m a tax paying and voting citizen my take is government is overstepping here. Of course if one doesn’t like the way apple is outfitting it’s hardware and managing its intellectual property, buy android.

Yeah, like this is the way things developed over the age of time. People leaving things behind because they didn‘t like it, instead of changing it.
Are you paying taxes and truly living in the EU, and not affiliated with Apple? I have yet to find a physical person here who is actually against it.

A company cannot hide forever behind the claim of „intellectual property“, the same how the evidence of how the App Store was formed and replaced web apps only through legal investigations.

Looking at strongys posts and likes it seems like he thinks emulators are illegal, so not surprised he'd have a bad take on this too.
Shame he isn't posting though, that would be bit more fun.

He‘ll probably post when it‘s 8 AM Cupertino time, Mo-Fr.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah, like this is the way things developed over the age of time. People leaving things behind because they didn‘t like it, instead of changing it.
Are you paying taxes and truly living in the EU, and not affiliated with Apple? I have yet to find a physical person here who is actually against it.

A company cannot hide forever behind the claim of „intellectual property“, the same how the evidence of how the App Store was formed and replaced web apps only through legal investigations.

The above seems to be "EUesq" in nature - same thing said by others. Maybe an EU country will develop the next breakthough mobile device. I'll wait until that happens.

He‘ll probably post when it‘s 8 AM Cupertino time, Mo-Fr.

 

[djphat2000]

That doesn't change the fact that you using jailbreak is not good argument when it's not something people can reliably do.

As it isn't something Apple wants you to do. They made the device and OS. What justification can you have that would warrant Apple making it easier for you to do whatever you wanted to do with the device they made? Do they not have the right to make it as they deem fit to? So long as it breaks no laws, or causes any harm.

Million out of billion is 0.1 percent, that literally is a small portion of devices.

It's like when rich people complain they pay too much in taxes. They always go with the dollar amount and not the percent. Its officially not a lot of people so long as you're not in that million group.

You presented it as a reasonable choice to me so it is a reasonable choice to you too, if the future iphone with app installing isn't to your liking make your own.

Choose my own in this case. Which again today I have a choice. You have a choice. Tomorrow my choice was removed. You want something that did not exist prior to this law. But, you had a choice to pick something else that not only existed, but did so for some time AND is made in a variety of ways.

None of us went on to complain that Google doesn't have a closed locked down device, so therefor they need to make one for the minority of people that want it.

You refuse to see you have another option, and just want Apple to make a phone you want. And are happy to let the governments force it into existence. Again, for the minority of people out there that will ever use it. Mainly to pirate and install emulators. I personally can't wait for this new world we are getting ourselves into.

This is another reason why sometimes i dont understand what you mean, you randomly start talking about something offtopic.
Consumer rights and worker rights are two different things.

Your right.

Or an IT guy with really poor math skills and tendency to over exaggerate things
At least i know if you ever come to my birthday party i can give you 0.1 percent of the cake since you don't consider that a small portion.

If the size of the cake was such that .1% meant a normal sized slice. And I am pretty picky on cakes too. It better be pretty darn plain. I don't require icing at all. And my skills have afforded me a pretty good life, so I'll take it thank you.

No, but when i order hentai or a vape there is no moral guardian stopping those from getting delivered to me.

Smoke'm if you got'm. But, those warnings on cancer thou...

By a security team that doubles as moral police.

It would be cheaper and easier to not need it. Or to need less of it.

Except apps related to vaping and tons of other apps apple either removed or didn't allow in at all.

Does Disney allow porn on their platform? Every business has a choice to make on what they wish to cater to or do business with. Or seem to be associated with. That is not one which appeals to Apple as company. You can choose to like that or not. But, it should be up to them whether they are or are not associated with such things.

Sideloading is not a backdoor, if you really did not know that i wonder how you work at IT.

When only one door exists for means of entry into the device for apps for the general consumer. What else would you rather call this option?

... you know scratch the birthday party thing, you'd probably confuse my front door for a backdoor or a window.

Depends on how you labeled it I suppose.

Indeed, and it's the one feature i always wished iOS had, pretty pumped. (BTW i tend to forget ipadOS is a thing so whenever i say iOS assume i mean both iOS and ipadOS)

They have feature set differences due to their size and hardware (in the Pro model) differences and intended functions. Hence, a different OS.
I'm happy you're happy.

I'm starting to question if you really don't understand what i am saying or if you are purposefully ignoring it to make a point.
Let me say it again and hopefully you will understand it.
I prefer iOS to android, i like things like the UI and features... HOWEVER i did not buy it because of the lack of sideloading.

Again, you made a choice. You picked the one that better suits you. However, the issue here is you wanted something more than what Apple designed the product to do. Yet you still had a choice. You could at any time pick an Android device that you can darn near customize to the n-th degree to even look like an iOS device while providing you side-loading and 3rd party appstores. You can root the device if you wish.

I want a spaceship that can take me to Mars over the span of a few hours. However, I only have 3 rocket companies for which I can book a trip that will still not take me to Mars any faster than several months. I can't force a government to make it happen. Nor should I be. We all want something more than what either Apple or Google currently offers (how about a new Mac Pro already with AMD and Nvidia GPU options!). And if enough of us want that same feature to make it worth either companies worth wild. I'm fairly certain that money talks and they will be MORE than willing to accommodate when and where ever possible. How many people in the EU are petitioning the governments for these new "features" in the law?

That is your right as a consumer to want something that can be done. You vote for it with your dollars/Euro's. When you continue to purchase Apple products and voice your "wants" to the company (petition whatever). They will listen when enough people want the same thing. AND doing so fits their business model (how they intended for it to work). If it is something that currently does not. It may take longer to happen if ever. And that is fine too. Sometimes we don't align, and we either accept it or move on to something that does.

My choices were two compromises, either android which has sideloading but is otherwise worse, or iOS which lacks sideloading but is otherwise better.
What i always wanted was iOS with sideloading and i could not get it before.

Again, we all want something more that what either company currently provides. That is all well and good. You will never get an opposing argument from me on that. HOWEVER, that is true for almost everything we purchase. Your house, your car, your clothes, your jewelry, your place of work (even if you own it).

If (most likely when but, I'll pose a hypothetical) only 1,000 people are negatively affected by this new feature of side-loading on iOS devices happen. Do you still feel justified by the EU's decision in making that happen? What number would make it unjustifiable? You can pick % or actual number of affected individuals. How many unsatisfied people are enough to make it unjustified? You know, just those of us that are happy with the way it is today. Maybe wish we could have "other" new features, and really didn't want this one added.

 

[inuragon]

Maybe an EU country will develop the next breakthough mobile device. I'll wait until that happens.

It is pretty hard to compete in that market with how strong iOS and android are, can't get app support without users and can't get users without app support.
From what i remember jolla was way better than android at the time, but it was not meant to be.

 

[djphat2000]

So you are using someone's opinion to define "insanity". Okay. I wasn't though I do like Einstein's. If it is really his.

I don't care how this evolves. It won't make my decision to buy/not buy an iPhone. It is however a feature I would find highly desirable on an iPhone and increase the use case, for me, of the device. This is not and has never been an Apple vs Android case even though many, including TC try to make it so. This Government regulatory made this decision and involves more than Apple though Apple is most affected in regards to sideloading.

I'm just stating that I disagree with the EU's decision on this. I do feel it will have negative consequences they are either not seeing or care to see. And is not even necessary due to there being a solid alternative to Apple's devices and iOS platform.

In my humble option, it will add more cost for Apple. And there by more costs for the consumers in the EU. More confusion as to where to get apps (potentially as they are removed from the store onto 3rd party stores), and increase risks for the consumer do to increase attack surface of the device/iOS.

Apps that don't have to be vetted or obtained by any creditable gatekeeper. And apps that skirt any actual purchase (piracy). While greater access to the underlying hardware (by 3rd parties) will expose vulnerabilities that wasn't visible due to not having direct access to it as it stands today. The "unknown unknowns". Which will cause Apple to "Fix", and increase the costs of the device over time. Since they hide that access today. Tomorrow, they will have to allow access to it same as they currently have. More people poking around in there is bound to find holes that are exploitable. I don't see this going well.

 

[djphat2000]

According to the data of people surveyed in the EU, it did democratically execute the will of the people. Or shall we now also adopt US wall adapters because our government should follow the recommendation of Apple?


If you follow interviews with Apple staff it was stated multiple times that the App Store was actually a late addition caused by more finacially-involved pressure, and the prior plan was to go with web apps.

Sure. But not for "us". We like the security architecture of iOS without the App Store telling us which content is allowed and which isn't. If this wasn't locked to the EU, many citizens of authoritarian countries would rejoice as well.

I however do have the right that software in my legal domain follows the rules. If Apple wants the EU margins, they cannot have it all without at least following laws, simple as that. And the law is that the people have voted for that. There have been petitions for that, not against. Just open your eyes and accept the truth.

Nothing changes to the security on your device. Anything that can happen happens because Apple allows it from the get-go with their iOS security settings. Any attempt to gauge insecurities on the public with words like private APIs can be locked down if they don't want such things to be executed.
No app will be able to access your private data unless you explicitly confirm the prompts. The most sensitive kind of data is also not even accessible even if you wanted to give access. But you already know that.

Most developers, engineers and designers who quit from Apple only did so because the company only did what the executives wanted, not the whole company. A lot of folks were frustrated because the roadmap became just a softened carrot-on-a-stick.
Other stores you don't trust? Such as Steam? We all know perfectly well why such a store is not somethign Apple would want.

Good luck hacking the device when all you got is zero-day exploits and someone to magically be navigated to your malware app in a malware app store with good SEO while maintaining signed code by Apple.

They don't need to match the expertise of experts, their tech advisors have to. Do you know them? If not, it's just speculation on your behalf, and painting it as a fact is exactly the problem we face here. You simply want to sell your opinion as a fact, and you're upset it doesn't work. And so is the Apple Social Media payroll squad.

Ok.

 

[inuragon]

As it isn't something Apple wants you to do.

Then don't say "you don't need sideloading because you can jailbreak"

You refuse to see you have another option

I have never refused to see it, but you have claimed that option offers everything i want when it actually doesn't.

When only one door exists for means of entry into the device for apps for the general consumer. What else would you rather call this option?

Another way to install apps.
Backdoor is an existing tech word that already has a meaning, i refuse to believe an IT guy would not know this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdoor_(computing)

Depends on how you labeled it I suppose.

wow
you have said lots of kinda silly things but this might be the "best" yet.
you need labels to tell you a front door is a front door?

now i'm questioning if you actually can survive with sideloading, and how you can work if you need doors to tell you what they are.

I want a spaceship that can take me to Mars over the span of a few hours. However, I only have 3 rocket companies for which I can book a trip that will still not take me to Mars any faster than several months. I can't force a government to make it happen.

You are comparing asking for something the company can't do to something the company can easily do.

Does Disney allow porn on their platform?

I don't care if apple allows porn on their platform, i only care whether i can have it on my device.

and increase the costs of the device over time

Apple increasing costs of devices would be nothing new.

 

[inuragon]

Ok.

Man you sure did reply to the points he made, refuted everything /S

 

[djphat2000]

I like the products, too, but I don't have to like the company. The company has become quite detached from its products, so the link naturally broke.

Opinion. I have heard this from others before. Same with the doom and gloom of the company and its all down hill since SJ died. In my opinion, they make better products today than they ever had. And the company as a whole has grown in ways that to me make sense. They have always been a go it alone do it themselves as much as they can to design something they want to sell to the world.

And I own stocks as well, but I regard them as what they are, stocks. Sure I like that the executives are advancing all our portfolio's worth, but I can have a separate opinion about the products.

I'm sure every executive there and stockholders around the world have differing opinions on all Apple does.
But owning a stock means that Apple better return value to "us". And even if we don't like the design choices or OS look and feel or options with 3rd party integrations etc. So long as that value comes back, we are taken care of in that regard. We invest in them because we believe they know how to do what needs to be done to return value to us. As a consumer, we can complain as much as we like.

 

[djphat2000]

Man you sure did reply to the points he made, refuted everything /S

Yup.

 

[inuragon]

Yup.

I disagree with people saying apple pays users like you, clearly they would hire people who actually are good at arguing their points.

 

[djphat2000]

Then don't say "you don't need sideloading because you can jailbreak"

Ok, you don't need an iPhone then. Is that better?

I have never refused to see it, but you have claimed that option offers everything i want when it actually doesn't.

Clearly this is of value to you to have. Why not have it with a platform that already offers it?

Another way to install apps.
Backdoor is an existing tech word that already has a meaning, i refuse to believe an IT guy would not know this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdoor_(computing)

Ahhh, ok. Another way to install apps. Why didn't I think of calling it that. Thank you.

wow
you have said lots of kinda silly things but this might be the "best" yet.
you need labels to tell you a front door is a front door?

Yes, please specify which entry way into your home or place of residence is the correct one for guests to use. We want cake after all and don't want to cause any fuss trying to obtain it.

now i'm questioning if you actually can survive with sideloading, and how you can work if you need doors to tell you what they are.

Maybe I can't. I guess we will find out.

You are comparing asking for something the company can't do to something the company can easily do.

Ok. But, companies can do many things easily. Should they do all they can do easily? What if they don't want to? What if they don't want to do that easy thing as they are against it?

I don't care if apple allows porn on their platform, i only care whether i can have it on my device.

You can, and I am sure do. That's your business how you go about doing that. Apple do not have to make it easy for you to do so. That isn't their reason for being. They make a product, you like it and or want it. You buy it as is. If not, find another product that does what you want and like.

Apple increasing costs of devices would be nothing new.

Outside of supply issues (costs increasing on parts, labor, materials, shipping). This would factor into being something not planned by Apple to do. And will require proper funding to stay on top of.

 

[djphat2000]

I disagree with people saying apple pays users like you, clearly they would hire people who actually are good at arguing their points.

Apple does pay me. Dividends.

 

[dk001]

…

Outside of supply issues (costs increasing on parts, labor, materials, shipping). This would factor into being something not planned by Apple to do. And will require proper funding to stay on top of.

Say what?

If Apple is going to do this they will have internally a statement of work and have designated the capitol to cover it.
You can bet Apple has micro-reviewed and micro-analyzed this from a work/cost perspective.

It’s just another feature.

 

[inuragon]

Clearly this is of value to you to have. Why not have it with a platform that already offers it?

Already answered so reread my old posts if you forgot.

Ahhh, ok. Another way to install apps. Why didn't I think of calling it that. Thank you.

Because backdoor sounds scarier and you want to make installing apps sound scarier than it is.

Yes, please specify which entry way into your home or place of residence is the correct one for guests to use. We want cake after all and don't want to cause any fuss trying to obtain it.

No need to use plurals, i can assure you are the only one who needs assistance in recognizing a front door. (well unless there's people with special needs coming)

Ok. But, companies can do many things easily. Should they do all they can do easily? What if they don't want to? What if they don't want to do that easy thing as they are against it?

It will be something that gets decided on a case by case basis.
Personally i'm interested to see if EU decides to tell car manufacturers adding monthly fees to basic features like seat warmers to stop that and if we will get people defending that too saying "i deserve the right to buy a car where seat warming has monthly fee, now my choice is taken away from me!"

Apple do not have to make it easy for you to do so.

Man you sure like repeating same arguments.
Like said before there is a difference between making something easy and purposefully making it hard.
Also they do in fact have to make it easy now, so why don't you cry about it some more

 

[djphat2000]

Already answered so reread my old posts if you forgot.

Ok

Because backdoor sounds scarier and you want to make installing apps sound scarier than it is.

Are you scared yet? My house doesn't have any back doors, but I have lived in houses with back doors. We made sure they were locked just like the front door. Maybe that's just us.

No need to use plurals, i can assure you are the only one who needs assistance in recognizing a front door. (well unless there's people with special needs coming)

What's wrong with people with special needs coming over for some cake?

It will be something that gets decided on a case by case basis.

According to the EU, the case by case is let 3rd parties in with a store of their own. Allow side loading, and allow them access to the hardware same as Apple has today. I don't think I am missing anything of the top points. All of which Apple does not want to do. Just saying they lumped the cases together. It doesn't really matter anymore, it is what it is.

Personally i'm interested to see if EU decides to tell car manufacturers adding monthly fees to basic features like seat warmers to stop that and if we will get people defending that too saying "i deserve the right to buy a car where seat warming has monthly fee, now my choice is taken away from me!"

Removing a choice you had (same as this situation) would be wrong. Since you had seats with warmers that you previously did not have to subscribe to in order to have. Just like you previously did not have 3rd party stores, side-loading, etc on Apple devices. So in a strange way we agree!

Man you sure like repeating same arguments.

Its fun. And Apple pays me to do it so. It's a living.

Like said before there is a difference between making something easy and purposefully making it hard.

Yes I agree with you. But, from the beginning it was this way. All internal emails and communications between Apple team members aside. The product as it exists in the real world did not have a store. THEN, it did have a store. At first you could create WebApps (and still can!). Then they added a Store. Not 3rd party stores, not side-loading. This was the options you had from jump. You never had the options you're going to have in the EU. So your Freedoms and or choices was never changed. Today, however it is being changed.

It would be one thing if Apple wanted to do this of their own free will. To entice more customers or because they could do it in a way that was to their liking or all of the above and more. But that isn't what is happening here.

Also they do in fact have to make it easy now, so why don't you cry about it some more

My time to cry will come (or maybe not). I'll read about it in the EU first though.

 

[djphat2000]

Wrong. Any employer can put in their contract that they are entitled to punching me after making a mistake at work. It is legal, yes, just not in my country. If Apple wants to do business in my country, they are wrong to do it, simple as that.
They are free to do funny things to the public (or in private) all they want, but only in a country which allows it.

Wait how is it wrong? They had a device selling in the EU for how long now? How is it wrong?
I'll ignore the punching in the face part.
They followed the rules as it existed. Where ever they did not follow the rules as they existed, they got sent to court and most likely lost whatever case was put against them. And rightfully so, that is the law. This is a new law changing the product as it is. And I firmly disagree with it.

 

[makitango]

Wait how is it wrong? They had a device selling in the EU for how long now? How is it wrong?

Seriously? We‘ve had slavery for ages as well, maybe you want to use the same logic again? Jesus Christ.

 

[djphat2000]

Seriously? We‘ve had slavery for ages as well, maybe you want to use the same logic again? Jesus Christ.

1) We still have slavery in some places on earth, which is horrible.
2) This isn't the same thing at all.
3) No need to bring religion in to this.

It's the sale of a product that is about 20 years old, not hundreds or 1000's under discussion.
While a lot has and can happen in 20 or so years. I don't think it's to the point we need rules to open up a product that doesn't want to be by the company that makes and sells said product. You have an alternative.

 

[makitango]

1) We still have slavery in some places on earth, which is horrible.

Thank you for helping me get that vital piece of information. I wouldn't know where else to find it outside from MR.

2) This isn't the same thing at all.

Usually you bring up a more stark situation to make some evasive minds understand a concept. Apparently it was not a strong enough. Hint: You said a thing was running for some time and concluding that it can't be wrong, and I wanted to check in with you that we're on the same page that lasting things do not equal good things. There should be no way to not understand this basic concept but apparently it does not compute with some wires.

3) No need to bring religion in to this.

Jesus surely has sinned for some posts here.

It's the sale of a product that is about 20 years old, not hundreds or 1000's under discussion.

Doesn't matter. Facebook is less years old yet they trespassed on a number of things, too. Doesn't make it more right to do things just because you do them briefly, or long.

I don't think it's to the point we need rules to open up a product that doesn't want to be by the company that makes and sells said product.

I don't think it's up to you to decide what a company can do in a country or not, and certainly not one that isn't even yours to begin with.

You have an alternative.

Honestly we don't, and that's the point. If you think you can compare Android to iOS then I wonder what you've been doing here all work long.

Not even talking about the App Store but a company cannot tell you what content to run on their OS, or force you to websites instead of natives apps. It's also auto-competitive, and restrictive.
It would be a different story if the App Store review was a technical one instead of a content-related curation.