iOS 17 to Support App Sideloading to Comply With European Regulations

[BaldiMac]

…and Apple needs it (as well as third-party apps) to sell high-priced iPhone devices.

Yep. Of course, that doesn't change my point in the least.

I wouldn’t say it’s extremely low. Especially with app subscriptions for smaller, relatively narrowly focused apps that charge 36, 48 dollars or more each year. Neither would Spotify or Netflix that have ceased offering In-App purchases on iOS, because they’re too expensive.

So you choose to ignore the point and direct evidence in favor of meanderings about the meaning of "low". As if a few apps that you consider expensive offset the fact that the average price of apps on the store in less than a dollar.

Apple App Store: average app price 2024 | Statista

In January 2024, the average price of an iOS gaming app in the Apple App Store was 0.47 U.S dollars, while on average the price of apps reached approximately 0.79 U.S dollars.

www.statista.com

 

[AppliedMicro]

So you choose to ignore the point and direct evidence in favor of meanderings about the meaning of "low". As if a few apps that you consider expensive offset the fact that the average price of apps on the store in less than a dollar.

The figure is misleading and meaningless, if doesn't not include subscription and/or in-app purchase revenue.

Many financially successful games - or apps in general - are trying to lure you in at a nominal or even free price - and then charge for subscriptions, in-app-purchases, trial unlocks, virtual coins etc.

 

[Kal Madda]

Regardless of whether you call that an opinion, an assessment or claim of a fact:
There's nothing wrong with backing up a statement with reference or evidence.

Except if you're doing it with false figures. And insist and double down on them, even when being confronted with the actual number. Rather than, you know, verify of look them up.

I am writing what I believe are Apple's motives - and so did you about Epic's motives.
Anyone's free to make up their own mind and agree or disagree with us.


Not routinely. You give them - and developers - a heads-up a couple of years in advance:

"Installation of software from non-App-Store source is being deprecated and may be removed in a future update. Developers are strongly encouraged to distribute their app through the Mac App Store, the most convenient and safest way of... blablabla"

I’m done with the “false figures” crap. I already addressed that, move on…

As long as you admit that it’s your OPINION about Apple’s motives, then that’s fine, just don’t pretend it’s facts.

And, that’s assuming Apple could convince all professional software and open-source software currently available for the Mac to move to the App Store, which is a very big assumption. Besides, Macs aren’t nearly as big of a target as iOS, so the threat isn’t proportional.

 

[BaldiMac]

The figure is totally misleading, if doesn't not seem to include subscription - or even in-app purchase revenue.

Many successful games are trying to lure you in at a nominal or even free price - and then charge for subscriptions, in-app-purchases/unlocks, virtual coins etc.

It's not misleading. It's a data point that directly supports the claim that I made. What's misleading is calling a real metric misleading while offering nothing but anecdotes in return.

Just like I provided direct evidence (from Epic!) that lower commissions don't lead to lower pricing. Which is what we were actually talking about and you ignored.

 

[AppliedMicro]

It's not misleading. It's a data point that directly supports the claim that I made. What's misleading is calling a real metric misleading while offering nothing but anecdotes in return.

It may be a real metric - but it is not suitable to support your factual claim, if it doesn't exclude subscription or in-app purchase revenue.

A ton of apps on the app store are "free": My bank, my local transit authority, Uber and other travelling and booking apps, facebook, WhatsApp, streaming apps - they all charge nothing for app downloads.

If you count these all in but exclude other in-app revenue, it's no surprise that the average price is so low. Admittedly somewhat anecdotally, most of the (what is estimated are) the highest-revenue games on the App Store are "free" - but offer in-app purchases:

Top Grossing Games Apps | US | Top App Store Rankings for iOS

See the Top Games iOS Apps in US on the App Store Charts by Free, Paid, and Top Grossing. Sensor Tower provides a detailed visualization of the top ranking apps by category and country, along with app ranking changes and review ratings!

app.sensortower.com

If you're just looking at price before eventual in-app purchases/in-app subscription revenue, by the same logic even Microsoft Office 365 or Adobe Creative Cloud would be "free" - just because they offer free downloads and free trial access. The latter do say very little about the actual price - and consumer costs - for software/apps.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's misleading. A ton of apps on the app store is "free": My bank, my local transit authority, Uber and other travelling and booking apps, facebook, WhatsApp, streaming apps - they all charge nothing for app downloads.

If you count them in but exclude other revenue, it's no surprise that the average price is so low.

Most of the (what is estimated are) the highest-revenue games on the App Store are "free" - but offer in-app purchases:

Top Grossing Games Apps | US | Top App Store Rankings for iOS

See the Top Games iOS Apps in US on the App Store Charts by Free, Paid, and Top Grossing. Sensor Tower provides a detailed visualization of the top ranking apps by category and country, along with app ranking changes and review ratings!

app.sensortower.com

Data that doesn't say what you want it to say isn't misleading. It's clearly labeled and supports the exact point that I made. And you clearly understood the data. It is disingenuous to complain about factual data when you provide nothing but an anecdote in your rebuttal.

But here you go again on a tangent that has nothing to do with the point. Did I say anything about total app revenue? No, I said app pricing is extremely low. Something directly supported by the data I supplied.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Did I say anything about total app revenue? No, I said app pricing is extremely low

If you're talking about apps' pricing regardless if or how long you can actually use them and what benefits they provide, I fully agree.

Did I say anything about total app revenue? No, I said app pricing is extremely low

Again: By the same logic Microsoft Office 365 and Adobe Creative Cloud (including Word, Acrobat, Illustrator and Photoshop) would be free apps.

You will be unable to edit documents in Word or Excel and Photoshop won't work after your free 30-day trial.
But hey, feel free (pun intended) to consider them "free" and thus supporting your claim.

I believe you've made clear that your claim about app pricing is so narrow to disregard subscription and in-app costs and revenue. Whereas I believe that subscription and in-app revenue are a important parts of app pricing.

 

[BaldiMac]

If you're talking about apps' pricing regardless if or how long you can actually use them and what benefits they provide, I fully agree.


Again: By the same logic Microsoft Office 365 and Adobe Creative Cloud (including Word, Acrobat, Illustrator and Photoshop) would be free apps.

You will be unable to edit documents in Word or Excel and Photoshop won't work after your free 30-day trial.
But hey, feel free (pun intended) to consider them "free" and supporting your claim.

👉

You seem incredulous that I consider what I said to be what I said. The price of the app is the price of the app, and not the total revenue generated by the app. Shocking.

But again, you've provided absolutely no rebuttal to my point other than an anecdote. Like you did with other posters, you're just deflecting off onto tangents.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Coming back to your original point..

Except pricing on the App Store is already extremely low

"Pricing" on the app store does not just include initial one-time price
Pricing models can consist of one-time, up-front fees just as well as recurring charges.

👉 If you exclude everything other than up-front charges, I have no intention whatsoever of adopting your narrow definition of "pricing" for further discussion - I find it utterly pointless.

I just do not consider Microsoft Office and Adobe Creative Cloud being "free" apps - as your definition entails.

 

[BaldiMac]

Coming back to your original point..

"Pricing" on the app store includes initial one-time price, just as well as recurring costs and additional "unlocks".

That's certainly the definition that you'd like to use, but not the one I (or the data I supplied) used.

But we can move forward with that definition. Here's revenue per download.

2022 Annual Report: Top Grossing Apps and Categories in App Store

This is an annual report about the top grossing apps and categories in app store. Check it out to get more insight into the changes in the iOS app economy.

www.appflow.ai

Again, extremely low.

 

[Kal Madda]

Stop the hypocrisy about how yours is supposedly just "opinion" and mine claims of facts.

As to my “hypocrisy”, I merely asked you to admit that your opinion of Apple’s motives is only that, opinion (instead of acting like it’s fact). I readily admit that my opinion of Epic’s motives is opinion, so no hypocrisy…

 

[inuragon]

but serious if I make a Hardware and software its my property and my right to set it's rules. software is not politics

Until you sell that hardware or software at which point consumer rights matter too.

 

[inuragon]

I have argued that legislations like this are made specifically to benefit smaller businesses, because the EU doesn’t have any huge tech giants the way the US does (in part because of their political and business environment). It’s not about protecting or empowering consumers.

Let’s hope more people recognise this sooner than later.

That's just your opinion.
Also protecting smaller businesses from massive ones using their power in unfair ways is totally reasonable.

It seems like here every week, someone gets scammed of their life savings because they got tricked into downloading some fake app from Facebook. And it’s all happening on android phones.

People get scammed on iOS devices too all the time, SMS scams work well too, as do remote control scams. (Just check all the negative reviews teamviewer has on app store)

 

[Carrotcruncher]

Seems a little dramatic considering that sideloading has existed on Android since day 1 and yet, somehow, most people with Android phones aren't complaining about suffering from endless malware. 😅

When are Apple going to give us an option to delete data they have on us like Google do? The only way to delete data is to close you icloud account, unacceptable. This must be the next step in the reigning in of big tech.

 

[Kal Madda]

When are Apple going to give us an option to delete data they have on us like Google do? The only way to delete data is to close you icloud account, unacceptable. This must be the next step in the reigning in of big tech.

Apple doesn’t collect any data without permission…

 

[strongy]

When are Apple going to give us an option to delete data they have on us like Google do? The only way to delete data is to close you icloud account, unacceptable. This must be the next step in the reigning in of big tech.

just going to leave this here lol https://privacy.apple.com/

 

[Deihmos]

When will this happen? Tired of the 7 day limit and how complicated it is to install apps outside of the store.

 

[Iwavvns]

When are Apple going to give us an option to delete data they have on us like Google do?

do you seriously believe that Google will willingly delete all of your data upon your request, when that data can still be used to further their own interests? I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.

 

[Victor Mortimer]

do you seriously believe that Google will willingly delete all of your data upon your request, when that data can still be used to further their own interests? I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.

I absolutely believe they delete the data they tell you they're going to delete.

If they were lying, the class action lawsuit would be incredibly expensive for them when (not if) they got caught. It's not worth the risk for them, since most users have no idea how to request the deletion they'll still have data from the vast majority of people.

 

[Iwavvns]

I absolutely believe they delete the data they tell you they're going to delete.

If they were lying, the class action lawsuit would be incredibly expensive for them when (not if) they got caught. It's not worth the risk for them, since most users have no idea how to request the deletion they'll still have data from the vast majority of people.

If.. they get caught. How many times do companies do something thinking they won’t get caught. Didn’t Google just settle a lawsuit for doing something they thought was OK? Besides, the fines these companies get are nothing more than a slap on the wrist.. easily tolerable if they get caught. Gone are the days when the threat of a fine was a sufficient deterrence.

 

[H2SO4]

do you seriously believe that Google will willingly delete all of your data upon your request, when that data can still be used to further their own interests? I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.

This is the kind of answer given when somebody has no case to put forward.
Question, what question? I didn't see one.................

 

[seek3r]

do you seriously believe that Google will willingly delete all of your data upon your request, when that data can still be used to further their own interests? I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.

I do, because unlike the US the EU has the stomach to make even a company like Google feel financial pain for outright lying to customers on this kind of thing, so I trust in the EU’s regulators, not google, on this

 

[H2SO4]

The EU placates the highest bidder, they’re a corrupt socialist system, and I don’t trust them on just about anything…

So if somebody found a single instance where this wasn't true you'd be happy to declare your position as false?

 

[Kal Madda]

So if somebody found a single instance where this wasn't true you'd be happy to declare your position as false?

No, because 1 good action doesn’t mean that they’re suddenly trustworthy and non-corrupt. 1 good action doesn’t negate the several corrupt ones the EU has made, including in recent history. If the EU continues to act in corrupt ways, then I have no reason to assume that that’s changed based on 1 non-corrupt action. If I find one example where a thief does something good, does that make them not a thief? Note, I didn’t say “the EU always does x”, so finding one example of different action wouldn’t make any difference.

PS. Edited for better clarity, I poorly phrased what I was trying to say by trying to condense it rather than expound on it.

 

[VulchR]

The EU placates the highest bidder, they’re a corrupt, socialist system, and I don’t trust them on just about anything…

This is a little extreme. First, I don't think the EU is more corrupt than, say, the US (see https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-corrupt-countries), except for possibly the new countries in the EU that are gradually abandoning old Eastern Bloc ways. Second. I don't think the EU is socialist (perhaps social-minded is more accurate), but even if it were, that does not equate with being untrustworthy.

I think the EU is grossly mistaken in trying to crush Apple's app store, but I think that is because the regulators misunderstand the situation. EU politicians and officials, like all governments, struggle to understand technology.