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Zazoh

macrumors 68000
Jan 4, 2009
1,518
1,122
San Antonio, Texas
My field does not fit into your little box, nor is it one of your two or three exceptions. If you really want to make blanket statements (which I don’t know why people feel so compelled to do) I suggest you at least speak only to your specific field.

But for what it worth, I don’t believe in “legacy” workflows. People are different and have different methods. Judge the work results, who cares how they get it done.
It’s an iPad forum. The discussion is on iPads. Yet you feel compelled to come here to ‘defend’ your legacy workflows? Im not making blanket statements. I’m stating facts. For most of the world an android phone is their computer.

Mac sales for Apple are 8% of all sales. There are millions of people doing without a MacBook just fine.

Im sorry that hurts your feelings.
 

AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
7,401
3,378
Massachusetts
Not surprised, a Chromebook is a Chromebook, not a laptop. I would choose the iPad too.
According to Google, a Chromebook is a new way to laptop. ?
And it is unbearably slow.
Yes, if your network connection is unbearably slow...

It all depends on the speed of the network that you're connected to. You shouldn't always expect it to be slow.
 

Arctic Moose

macrumors 68000
Jun 22, 2017
1,599
2,133
Gothenburg, Sweden
According to Google, a Chromebook is a new way to laptop. ?

Yeah, Google does make a lot of silly claims.

(Of course, Apple's "your next computer is not a computer" is just as bad.)

Yes, if your network connection is unbearably slow...

I guess that comes down to your personal experience and expectations, and your definition of "unbearable".

I consistently get about 130 Mbps and 12 ms latency to external resources from my home network.

For DNS I typically get 5 ms from 1.0.0.1. (When not using cached DNS available on the network locally, of course.)

Even running apps on the server one 10 Gbit switch port over has unacceptable lag:
64 bytes from 10.0.0.20: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.195 ms

In fact, even web apps running locally are irritatingly slow compared to well-designed native apps. (In my highly personal opinion.)

Then again, I always max out processor, graphics and RAM, and turn off transparency and animations to the extent it is possible, simply because I hate non-responsive interfaces. I don't see this as unreasonable.

It all depends on the speed of the network that you're connected to. You shouldn't always expect it to be slow.

If it is slower than the 2300 MB/s I get from my external drives it is slow. (In my highly personal opinion.)
 
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subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
6,258
6,737
It’s an iPad forum. The discussion is on iPads. Yet you feel compelled to come here to ‘defend’ your legacy workflows? Im not making blanket statements. I’m stating facts. For most of the world an android phone is their computer.

Mac sales for Apple are 8% of all sales. There are millions of people doing without a MacBook just fine.

Im sorry that hurts your feelings.
Feelings not hurt, I just speak frankly. Sorry if I appear aggressive, I don’t intend to be.

Yes, it’s a forum. People are free to state their opinions. But I will counter anyone who states their opinion as fact. Anyone who does so on a public forum needs to be ready to defend their statements.

Your first blanket statement/opinion stated as fact was:
”If you need a laptop, you are either doing a legacy workflow, 3D rendering, or video production work.”
Blanket statements are dangerous because though there can be many counterexamples that prove it false, all you really need is one. I am one. As I alluded to, my workflow is on a laptop (among other devices including a desktop, an iPad, and an iPhone), is not one of your exceptions, and cannot be done as effectively on a non-laptop such as an iPad or Chromebook due to their nature (of which I am knowledgeable). Also, again, I don’t believe in the term “legacy” workflow. Anything that implies that one workflow is better than another based on anything other than results is at best useless, and at worst stifles actual results. And though I believe this is true, it is an opinion because it is not proven. Feel free to disagree with your own opinion or prove me wrong with fact.

Your second blanket statement/opinion stated as fact was:
“For most of the world an android phone is their computer.”
If you would have said that most of the world owns an Android phone, that would have been a fact. But, assuming you’re staying on the topic of workflows, you went a big step further and implied that most of the world uses their Android phone as their work computer instead of a Mac or PC. That’s not a fact.

The only fact you stated so far, besides your own anecdotal evidence, was the Mac sales statistic.

But I’m not entirely clear on why you brought up this statistic, nor the Android phone argument. They seem to support a somewhat contradictory idea to what you said before:

The problem is Legacy processes: “denoting or relating to software or hardware that has been superseded but is difficult to replace because of its wide use.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you said that laptops are old inferior workflows but are difficult to replace because they are widely used—but your supposed supporting evidence is that laptops are not widely used? I’m confused on which you’re trying to say.

Regardless, however, all that the lower Mac sales percentage means is that people are buying a lot more iPhones, Airpods, etc than Macs; it does not prove that people are not using laptops for work. Just like the fact that there are a lot more iPhones in landfills than Macs does not prove that people have no use for iPhones.

And regardless to that, I don’t think the point is even to prove what the majority use. What we’re really talking about is what is the better workflow. Again, my position is that the better workflow cannot be generalized (again, opinion).

Again, opinions are fine, but statements of fact cannot be based on anecdotal and merely suggestive evidence.
 

Zazoh

macrumors 68000
Jan 4, 2009
1,518
1,122
San Antonio, Texas
Feelings not hurt, I just speak frankly. Sorry if I appear aggressive, I don’t intend to be.

Again, opinions are fine, but statements of fact cannot be based on anecdotal and merely suggestive evidence.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not a lawyer, never took debate, but find your reeling in of my grandiose ideas fair.

I am fascinated with how far technology has come, and yet, how slow it is moving. In was in college in 1982, I had to schedule time in the lab to connect to the computer. Meanwhile, my dad, was unboxing an IBM personal computer at home.

Advances in mainframe and enterprise technologies have been exponential over the years. At first personal computers as well, but then other devices began to pop up, home assistants, the Internet of Things (IoT), smart phones, tablets, etc. Chunking along in the right lane, in my opinion, is the design for roughly 30 years, the laptop. (Desktop fits as well)

Consumption of content, anywhere any device. There are likely no cases where content needs to be done on anything tied to a desk, or in a ~14x9 device.

Creation of content is a different game. There is a vast difference between the build locally then publish globally content creators, music, video, CAD, compared to the needs of office, knowledge workers connected to the grid.

iPad works for me and the fam. I'm a programer connecting to an enterprise to practice my craft, I'm connected to a virtual representation of a computer. May not work for everyone. But, I suspect it works for more than realize it could work for them.

The future is here, it just isn't evenly distributed.
 
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secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
1,494
1,229
Consumption of content, anywhere any device. There are likely no cases where content needs to be done on anything tied to a desk, or in a ~14x9 device.
My eye doctor would disagree. It is not a good idea for my eyes to watch on a tablet in bed where the content is close to my eyes. It results in having to order yet again correcting glasses. In that sense I am instructed to watch movies on a TV from a specific distance and never with the lights off. I have myopia and astigmatism and according to my doctor, doing activities like consuming content from tablet/phone in bed could only worsen my situation.
Creation of content is a different game. There is a vast difference between the build locally then publish globally content creators, music, video, CAD, compared to the needs of office, knowledge workers connected to the grid.

iPad works for me and the fam. I'm a programer connecting to an enterprise to practice my craft, I'm connected to a virtual representation of a computer. May not work for everyone. But, I suspect it works for more than realize it could work for them.

The future is here, it just isn't evenly distributed.
I am a former Developer, I am now a team lead of Software Developers. I am now mostly in calls and have to work with Excel and Powerpoint files. The small screen of the iPad is not enough for me to work with those files. Support for external displays is pure BS on an iPad. Being able to watch a PPT during call and take notes (which is what I usually do) also requires two screens. For this specific reason the iPad for me does not work. It is just not efficient and it would slow me down.

For me efficiency is very important. I do not want to spend more time than I need for a task.

Now there are other tasks (like reading) where using the iPad with pencil is more efficient and I would gladly use it.

However for me it is always case by case and the factors to make a decision is time and efficiency.
 

AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
7,401
3,378
Massachusetts
How so? That looks like a long list of “isn’t as good at”, “doesn’t support” and “won’t work” to me.
Maybe there are some misconceptions that need to be cleared up.
 

InlawBiker

macrumors 6502
Apr 6, 2007
284
36
I tried an iPad Air 4 for a couple weeks and returned it. Thought I would update this epic thread with my thoughts.

I already have a powerful PC desktop I used for gaming and real work but, hey it's not real portable. I plugged the iPad into the same 4k monitor and bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo for the desk. Then I could then grab and carry it whenever I leave.

The problem I had with the iPad is trying to do real work, I quickly got frustrated and went for the desktop. Working on a spreadsheet, multitasking, pasting from one app to another, it got cumbersome. Using the mouse & keyboard still felt a bit awkward to me, it's much more natural as a touch device. I didn't see much advantage to the external monitor either.

I would be willing to revisit the idea if the iPad external monitor can be fully used as a second monitor. Much more screen real-estate to multitask would be great. That would be a game changer.

So for me the iPad was really good as a lightweight portable device, I'm just not ready to use one as my main machine. Not sure what I'll do now for a mobile device. A low-end basic iPad makes a lot more sense for the simple stuff I found it useful for. Or switching to a M1 Macbook of some kind is a much better fit for me.

I know iPad works great for some people as their only device I'm just not one of them. Hope this viewpoint helps others.
 

Quackington

macrumors 6502a
Aug 12, 2010
546
314
England, UK
I tried an iPad Air 4 for a couple weeks and returned it. Thought I would update this epic thread with my thoughts.

I already have a powerful PC desktop I used for gaming and real work but, hey it's not real portable. I plugged the iPad into the same 4k monitor and bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo for the desk. Then I could then grab and carry it whenever I leave.

The problem I had with the iPad is trying to do real work, I quickly got frustrated and went for the desktop. Working on a spreadsheet, multitasking, pasting from one app to another, it got cumbersome. Using the mouse & keyboard still felt a bit awkward to me, it's much more natural as a touch device. I didn't see much advantage to the external monitor either.

I would be willing to revisit the idea if the iPad external monitor can be fully used as a second monitor. Much more screen real-estate to multitask would be great. That would be a game changer.

So for me the iPad was really good as a lightweight portable device, I'm just not ready to use one as my main machine. Not sure what I'll do now for a mobile device. A low-end basic iPad makes a lot more sense for the simple stuff I found it useful for. Or switching to a M1 Macbook of some kind is a much better fit for me.

I know iPad works great for some people as their only device I'm just not one of them. Hope this viewpoint helps others.
Your final paragraph pretty much describes my situation. I have a Pro but it just doesn’t feel right for word processing, spreadsheets and presentations that I’d need to prepare. Even browsing I prefer to do it either on my phone or my MBP. So for what I do like using the iPad for (watching stuff)...I really don’t need such a powerful one. Will probably sell it soon and hope for a new Mini which is nice and light, or maybe not bother with an iPad at all.
 

Arctic Moose

macrumors 68000
Jun 22, 2017
1,599
2,133
Gothenburg, Sweden
Your final paragraph pretty much describes my situation.

Same here. The iPad is great for one-handed web browsing on the go, Teams meetings at the kitchen table and reading books in bed, but 25 years of muscle memory and well-established effective workflows are just not disrupted that easily. Besides the form factor (primarily small screen) all the infuriating limitations (artificial and otherwise) are the final nail in the iPad productivity coffin, for me.

I've had every generation iPad since its initial release, and I love it for what it is useful to me for, regrettably that just is not all that much.

This time around I didn't even get a pencil or a keyboard for it since I never found myself wanting to use them.
 
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ofarlig

macrumors 6502a
Jun 23, 2015
931
1,148
Sweden
I tried an iPad Air 4 for a couple weeks and returned it. Thought I would update this epic thread with my thoughts.

I already have a powerful PC desktop I used for gaming and real work but, hey it's not real portable. I plugged the iPad into the same 4k monitor and bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo for the desk. Then I could then grab and carry it whenever I leave.

The problem I had with the iPad is trying to do real work, I quickly got frustrated and went for the desktop. Working on a spreadsheet, multitasking, pasting from one app to another, it got cumbersome. Using the mouse & keyboard still felt a bit awkward to me, it's much more natural as a touch device. I didn't see much advantage to the external monitor either.

I would be willing to revisit the idea if the iPad external monitor can be fully used as a second monitor. Much more screen real-estate to multitask would be great. That would be a game changer.

So for me the iPad was really good as a lightweight portable device, I'm just not ready to use one as my main machine. Not sure what I'll do now for a mobile device. A low-end basic iPad makes a lot more sense for the simple stuff I found it useful for. Or switching to a M1 Macbook of some kind is a much better fit for me.

I know iPad works great for some people as their only device I'm just not one of them. Hope this viewpoint helps others.

I would use the iPad with the Magic Keyboar the same way as a laptop and remote into the desktop when needing to do work, and only when away from the desktop. A slim laptop isn't enough for real work either, not even my heavy "desktop replacement" Thinkpad can replace a good specced desktop so it requires remote desktop as well.
 
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jeremiah256

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2008
1,444
1,169
Southern California
I would use the iPad with the Magic Keyboar the same way as a laptop and remote into the desktop when needing to do work, and only when away from the desktop. A slim laptop isn't enough for real work either, not even my heavy "desktop replacement" Thinkpad can replace a good specced desktop so it requires remote desktop as well.
I think this weekend I’m purchasing a top rated Remote Desktop app and doing exactly this to see if this works for me. The iPad Pro is so very close to being perfect for almost everything except a few things.
 

thisismyusername

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2015
476
729
So for me the iPad was really good as a lightweight portable device, I'm just not ready to use one as my main machine. Not sure what I'll do now for a mobile device. A low-end basic iPad makes a lot more sense for the simple stuff I found it useful for. Or switching to a M1 Macbook of some kind is a much better fit for me.

I know iPad works great for some people as their only device I'm just not one of them. Hope this viewpoint helps others.

My exact same experience. Every year I anxiously await WWDC, hoping that this will finally be the year that Apple unlocks the iPad's true potential (or even just properly supports external monitors) and every year I'm let down. Part of me thinks "just give up, an iPad isn't supposed to be a laptop replacement... it's supposed to be a tablet". Then, I ask myself "if so then why did Apple bother adding support for external keyboards/mice and their current crippled external monitor support if they didn't want an iPad to be able to replace a real computer". Apple clearly wants an iPad to be a laptop replacement else they wouldn't have come out with the Magic Keyboard or made so many videos showing people using it as one.

I'm also not even trying to do pro-level things with my iPad. I don't expect to be able to do my day job (software engineering) on an iPad; I know it's not the right tool for the job and that's what my work computer is for. I'm talking about really basic tasks that are very easy on a real computer but can be painful on an iPad even if you try to do them the "iPad way".

I just don't get Apple and the direction they're trying to go with the iPad. They've always criticized 2-in-1s and laptops with touchscreens and yet they add keyboard/mouse support to the iPad and release the Magic Keyboard? I don't get it. I think Apple's trying to turn the iPad into a device that's the future of personal computing but, if so, they're sure doing a bad job selling me on that vision.
 
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Seanm87

macrumors 68020
Oct 10, 2014
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My exact same experience. Every year I anxiously await WWDC, hoping that this will finally be the year that Apple unlocks the iPad's true potential (or even just properly supports external monitors) and every year I'm let down. Part of me thinks "just give up, an iPad isn't supposed to be a laptop replacement... it's supposed to be a tablet". Then, I ask myself "if so then why did Apple bother adding support for external keyboards/mice and their current crippled external monitor support if they didn't want an iPad to be able to replace a real computer". Apple clearly wants an iPad to be a laptop replacement else they wouldn't have come out with the Magic Keyboard or made so many videos showing people using it as one.

I just don't get Apple and the direction they're trying to go with the iPad. They've always criticized 2-in-1s and laptops with touchscreens and yet they add keyboard/mouse support to the iPad and release the Magic Keyboard? I don't get it.

I think they're going down the route of it can replace your laptop for simple things. If you have complex needs then you need a full laptop.

I would agree if you have basic needs it can replace your laptop. If you need loads of floating windows, and complex workflows then a desktop OS is more appropriate.

Its all about the right tool for the job. With a little overlap. (Even an iPhone can do a lot of it)
 

ofarlig

macrumors 6502a
Jun 23, 2015
931
1,148
Sweden
I think this weekend I’m purchasing a top rated Remote Desktop app and doing exactly this to see if this works for me. The iPad Pro is so very close to being perfect for almost everything except a few things.

If you are using windows I would use Microsofts own Remote Desktop app with the built in feature in Windows, works great and the app itself is free.
 
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thisismyusername

macrumors 6502
Nov 1, 2015
476
729
I think they're going down the route of it can replace your laptop for simple things. If you have complex needs then you need a full laptop.

I'm completely fine with that vision and that's all I want out of an iPad but, for me at least, an iPad fails at really basic tasks. There's just so many really basic things that are so much easier on a real computer that could also be that easy on an iPad. I'm not talking about complex needs by a long shot (that's what my work MBP is for). Even editing a basic spreadsheet is easier on a real computer although I'll admit that most of that is due to crippled iPad apps and not necessarily the fault of the iPad or iPadOS (unless you want to do it while sitting at a desk and plugged into a real monitor... then iPadOS is also at fault).

There's just no way I'd ever recommend anyone try to use an iPad as a laptop replacement, even for really basic things, given the current state of things. It's a great tablet but sucks as a computer.
 

Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,965
5,133
Texas
My exact same experience. Every year I anxiously await WWDC, hoping that this will finally be the year that Apple unlocks the iPad's true potential (or even just properly supports external monitors) and every year I'm let down. Part of me thinks "just give up, an iPad isn't supposed to be a laptop replacement... it's supposed to be a tablet". Then, I ask myself "if so then why did Apple bother adding support for external keyboards/mice and their current crippled external monitor support if they didn't want an iPad to be able to replace a real computer".
There’s this stigma or misconception about tablets… where tablets are “only” used for media consumption, browsing web or any entertainment activities. And, we have been stuck in this mind state ever since tablets been introduced. And I always tell people… just because the iPad can’t replace a laptop for YOU, doesn’t mean it can’t replace it for someone else.
There is plenty people out there that is using the iPad to serve as their main computing device and they are doing perfectly fine handling work task. And, I get it… some people prefer a more establish OS to do their work.

I'm also not even trying to do pro-level things with my iPad. I don't expect to be able to do my day job (software engineering) on an iPad; I know it's not the right tool for the job and that's what my work computer is for. I'm talking about really basic tasks that are very easy on a real computer but can be painful on an iPad even if you try to do them the "iPad way".
I don’t think painful is the right word choice, perhaps… it can be annoying to transition work tasks from a traditional computing device to an iPad. But I understand what you mean.

I just don't get Apple and the direction they're trying to go with the iPad. They've always criticized 2-in-1s and laptops with touchscreens and yet they add keyboard/mouse support to the iPad and release the Magic Keyboard? I don't get it. I think Apple's trying to turn the iPad into a device that's the future of personal computing but, if so, they're sure doing a bad job selling me on that vision.
I think you missing the point about why Apple was criticizing Microsoft for 2-in-1s. The problem with Microsoft is that they were trying to position Windows to a touchscreen device, but the UI was targeted toward keyboard/mouse. And, with Apple.. they went with an opposite approach. The iPad is targeted as a touchscreen… but keyboard/mouse is optional.
 
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Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
943
498
There are millions of people doing without a MacBook just fine.
Yep, I see this every day. I was surprised at how much an iPad Pro could actually do. I have access to a Macbook Pro but I find using it more clunky than using my iPad Pro/pencil. I acknowledge that for some programs you really need a full computer, but many people simply don't have these restraints so using an iPad Pro fits very naturally into their workflow.
 
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secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
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Yep, I see this every day. I was surprised at how much an iPad Pro could actually do. I have access to a Macbook Pro but I find using it more clunky than using my iPad Pro/pencil. I acknowledge that for some programs you really need a full computer, but many people simply don't have these restraints so using an iPad Pro fits very naturally into their workflow.
I agree with you guys that there are enough people that do not need laptop or desktop machine. However I also do not think that those people need iPad Pro or would buy an iPad Pro, most of them would do fine with the basic iPad. My mother for example has really basic needs - just browsing the net. Nothing complex. Would she enjoy a tablet? - yes but not an iPad Pro as it is way too expensive. For that many she can buy herself two or three basic Windows laptops or one middle level or even one high level laptop.

This for me is the problem to be honest. At the price the iPad Pros are, I do not see them doing a lot. Like I expect a lot for that money. I can afford it and I enjoy the pencil (bought it for the pencil support) but I will be honest if money are tight and I have to choose only one device - my laptop wins. It costs as much as the iPad Pro but it kind of covers most of the tasks that I need. No it does not have pencil support, but I can also use a notebook and cover that needs totally the analog way.
 

Seanm87

macrumors 68020
Oct 10, 2014
2,210
4,415
I agree with you guys that there are enough people that do not need laptop or desktop machine. However I also do not think that those people need iPad Pro or would buy an iPad Pro, most of them would do fine with the basic iPad. My mother for example has really basic needs - just browsing the net. Nothing complex. Would she enjoy a tablet? - yes but not an iPad Pro as it is way too expensive. For that many she can buy herself two or three basic Windows laptops or one middle level or even one high level laptop.

This for me is the problem to be honest. At the price the iPad Pros are, I do not see them doing a lot. Like I expect a lot for that money. I can afford it and I enjoy the pencil (bought it for the pencil support) but I will be honest if money are tight and I have to choose only one device - my laptop wins. It costs as much as the iPad Pro but it kind of covers most of the tasks that I need. No it does not have pencil support, but I can also use a notebook and cover that needs totally the analog way.

Try not to think of pro as professional anymore. Its just basically the nicest/most featured of something in apples line up. Of course the base iPad can do the same things just like the MacBook Air can do the same as the MacBook Pro, as they run the same OS.

In terms of money well that's a huge variable as for some the cost of a pro might not be much but for others it is out of their budget. Thats why apple has products at different price points. Some people just want a tablet and a really nice one with all the bells and whistles.
 
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Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
943
498
I agree with you guys that there are enough people that do not need laptop or desktop machine. However I also do not think that those people need iPad Pro or would buy an iPad Pro, most of them would do fine with the basic iPad.
Correct, but that just reinforces the point that it all comes down to how someone is going to use a certain device, and why many don't need a laptop.
 
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secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
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Try not to think of pro as professional anymore. Its just basically the nicest/most featured of something in apples line up. Of course the base iPad can do the same things just like the MacBook Air can do the same as the MacBook Pro, as they run the same OS.
Yep. At this point the name Pro is just a marketing ploy. I never saw the pro meaning professional because what does this even mean? I am lead of Developers and QAs, my idea of professional work is having multiple monitors to be able to monitor the system on one of them and check the code on the other. I also have lots of meetings. I spend at least 5-6 hours in meetings and in most cases I have to both watch the video stream and take notes which means multiple screens. So nothing CPU intensive, but not what the iPad offers.

Others however can really do work on an iPad and with pencil.
In terms of money well that's a huge variable as for some the cost of a pro might not be much but for others it is out of their budget. Thats why apple has products at different price points. Some people just want a tablet and a really nice one with all the bells and whistles.
Yeah, definitely it depends on the person. What I am saying is that for me given the price of the iPad Pro, they should offer more than what is currently offered. It is a bit overpriced. And not pro. I also think that Apple does not do themselves any favors by saying that the iPad replaces computers. It only fuels people to explain in 10 different ways how it does not for them :D.
 
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