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Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
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What I am saying is that for me given the price of the iPad Pro, they should offer more than what is currently offered. It is a bit overpriced. And not pro.
So a more powerful processor is not pro? (yes I'm aware they haven't updated the pro yet) What about a 120Hz screen versus 60 Hz.? Or the added functionality of the pencil? What about the 20% brighter screen? Also on the pro the display panel and the glass are laminated into one piece, which makes the screen much thinner and less distorted than the model 8 (distorted might not be the right word). A laminated display makes a much better user experience when using the pencil because it feels like you're writing/drawing right on the content.

The iPad Pro also has Pro-Motion which gives much more fluid scrolling. Plus the pro also has a LiDAR scanner which many professionals use and also those who use AR. The pro also has much better speakers which are important for those in audio and/or video work. I can understand that these added features might not be used by some, but they do make for a much more pro experience and are worthy of the added price.

It all comes down to how someone is going to use a device.
 

secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
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So a more powerful processor is not pro? (yes I'm aware they haven't updated the pro yet) What about a 120Hz screen versus 60 Hz.?
I honestly do not notice the difference between 60 and 120 HZ. Also I sometimes do not understand the talk about the CPU. Yes it is more powerful but it cannot be used that much. There are not a lot of apps that use this power at sustainable way with multitasking. I know the benchmarks results, I am not talking about that. I am talking about sustainable high power use. Real use case scenarios where I would need that power and it is not a lot.
Or the added functionality of the pencil?
iPad Air uses the same generation of the pencil.
What about the 20% brighter screen? Also on the pro the display panel and the glass are laminated into one piece, which makes the screen much thinner and less distorted than the model 8 (distorted might not be the right word). A laminated display makes a much better user experience when using the pencil because it feels like you're writing/drawing right on the content.
That I agree with but iPad Pro is like 1.5 times the price of the basic iPad. I am not saying that is not better than the basic iPad but it is not that much better.
The iPad Pro also has Pro-Motion which gives much more fluid scrolling.
Which unfortunately I do not notice. Maybe it is because I have myopia but I really do not feel the difference.
Plus the pro also has a LiDAR scanner which many professionals use and also those who use AR. The pro also has much better speakers which are important for those in audio and/or video work.
My laptop (priced as the iPad Pro) has better speakers and bigger screen and same quality screen as both are LCD. Video on my laptop is much more enjoyable than on the iPad Pro. True there is LIDAR but so far I have not found that many apps that use LIDAR that are really useful. We are still waiting for those apps to appear.
I can understand that these added features might not be used by some, but they do make for a much more pro experience and are worthy of the added price.

It all comes down to how someone is going to use a device.
I am not saying that Pro should be the same price as the basic one. It should not but it should not also cost more than a laptop in upper price range because I do not see how it offers that much.
 

Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
943
498
There are not a lot of apps that use this power at sustainable way with multitasking.
Ironically that's because most of those apps are pro apps. Apps like Luma Fusion for example run much more smoothly. You are right there's not a lot of them, but the fact that they run at all on a tablet is a testament to the fact that this model is much more "pro.

Video on my laptop is much more enjoyable than on the iPad Pro.
Perhaps for you this is true, but many others would say that the added weight of the laptop and the hinged screen all takes away from the user experience. Many tell me that the iPad is a much more user-friendly experience than using a laptop when watching videos/movies.

True there is LIDAR but so far I have not found that many apps that use LIDAR that are really useful.
I have a realtor-client that uses it when selling houses. She can show a client what certain furniture will look like in a room before they buy the house. Again, a professional feature.

I am not saying that Pro should be the same price as the basic one. It should not but it should not also cost more than a laptop in upper price range because I do not see how it offers that much.
For the customer above that uses it when selling a house, she cannot buy any laptop that offers this feature. That one feature alone will pay for the iPad Pro as soon as she sells her first house...

The average iPad has now advanced greatly, and for many, that model is enough. But for true professional users, the iPad Pro does deserve the "Pro" name. Different tools for different people :)
 
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DaveOZ

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2008
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Lol, this argument still rages. It’s simple really, the iPad can replace a laptop for many people but can’t for the rest. Those who need a laptop or desktop will know.

I use a desktop for CAD work and an iPad for sketching. Neither can do both jobs.
 

secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
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Ironically that's because most of those apps are pro apps. Apps like Luma Fusion for example run much more smoothly. You are right there's not a lot of them, but the fact that they run at all on a tablet is a testament to the fact that this model is much more "pro.
There are apps for sure, I am just not sure that they are that many. Also to be honest Luma does not run super slow on the basic iPad ;). I actually have more issues with RAM on the basic iPad than with the CPU.
Perhaps for you this is true, but many others would say that the added weight of the laptop and the hinged screen all takes away from the user experience. Many tell me that the iPad is a much more user-friendly experience than using a laptop when watching videos/movies.
Yeah, for me it is also well my doctor would not like me watching video on a tablet. Not good for my eyes. The bigger the screen and the further from eyes the better if you ask her. So there is also that. I am in favor of big TV for watching videos and for that the laptop helps better as external display support.
I have a realtor-client that uses it when selling houses. She can show a client what certain furniture will look like in a room before they buy the house. Again, a professional feature.
Yep, that is a pro feature and is cool that she can use the iPad for that.
For the customer above that uses it when selling a house, she cannot buy any laptop that offers this feature. That one feature alone will pay for the iPad Pro as soon as she sells her first house...
Yes, for her indeed. The question is how many apps like that exist that make the iPad Pro for a lot of people?
The average iPad has now advanced greatly, and for many, that model is enough. But for true professional users, the iPad Pro does deserve the "Pro" name. Different tools for different people :)
I disagree with the true professionals notion here. I agree that for some people their profession needs an iPad and is vital for their work. However there are also a lot of other professional like me who need traditional computer - true multitasking, external display supports, lots of RAM and powerful sustainable power to do their work. So for me there are no true or not true professionals. There are different professionals.
 
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Mac... nificent

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
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Yep, that is a pro feature and is cool that she can use the iPad for that.
There will be many more pro apps for this feature coming soon. As with anything new, it takes some time for developers to write the code. However by then, the basic iPad will probably have this feature :D

Here are 100 other possibilities for usage;

 
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secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
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There will be many more pro apps for this feature coming soon. As with anything new, it takes some time for developers to write the code. However by then, the basic iPad will probably have this feature :D

Here are 100 other possibilities for usage;

It is a bit funny that by the time there are a lot of apps for LIDAR, it would not be pro exclusive feature.

Thanks for the page though. It would be an interesting read!
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,317
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Wales, United Kingdom
My iPad Air 4 meets all my requirements for personal use. I don’t do word processing or anything productivity driven when I’m at hone relaxing in the evening. For work I need a lot of processing power and even Apple don’t provide a platform that suits my needs, I have to go the Microsoft route. I can’t see that ever changing as the industry I work in has never really reached out to Apple or vice versa.

I’m glad Apple brought out the Air 4 as it seems to have a lot of the worthwhile features of the Pro but about £200 cheaper. I nearly went with the 8th gen iPad as it’s ridiculously good value, but liked the slightly larger screen of the Air 4 and the overall aesthetics. I could have gone with the 8th gen though as it does everything I need. At this point in time for me, an iPad isn’t good enough to replace a laptop and i doubt that will ever change.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
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I use a desktop for CAD work and an iPad for sketching. Neither can do both jobs.
What CAD software do you use out of interest? My company have moved away from desktops now to allow us more portability when working from home or visiting customers occasionally. I must say I prefer the laptop approach after years of using a desktop and a main bonus of me is not having to stay late anymore lol.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,317
25,467
Wales, United Kingdom
ArchiCAD. I works fine on most laptops. I'm using Twinmotion for rendering and most laptops are just not fast enough for rendering.
Ah cool. I use SolidWorks and for rendering use Keyshot 10. You’re right, my Dell Workstation is about as spec’d as you can get but the fan sounds like an aeroplane taking off when I’m rendering.
 

jeremiah256

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2008
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one more

macrumors 603
Aug 6, 2015
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I am enjoying reading some of these comments, as they allow me to rethink and improve my existing setup and workflows. Like many of you, I use my iPad for 95% of everything and enjoy its versatility for both work and play. However, for the time being and mostly due to iPadOS limitations, I still need to boot up my MacBook every now and again. The adventure goes on...
 

trip1ex

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2008
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they have said in the past they aren't afraid of cannibalizing their products so,

at the end of the day, to me, the ipad has the guts of a fast enough computer for many consumers and there is nothing stopping it from being a good consumer desktop (and laptop) than Apple.


I really just want to drop it in a dock connected to a 24" and use m/k and have 5-6 windows open and have a good enough folder file system/Finder/Windows Explorer.

Because I feel like I don't really need a Mac these days. I'm only keeping one around or keeping a pc around because of the above.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
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I really just want to drop it in a dock connected to a 24" and use m/k and have 5-6 windows open and have a good enough folder file system/Finder/Windows Explorer.
Not sure if Apple would ever make ipadOS handle that many windows. Since it would need an external monitor, it would probably need to work on any external monitor; and until now iOS/ipadOS has been designed for a small set of screen sizes and resolutions, so it seems like it would require a big overhaul of the OS and all the apps to be able to support all monitors. I’m sure it’s possible, but just not sure if the market (people who want to use external monitors with iPads) for that is big enough for Apple and developers to go to that effort.
As far as the file system, not sure exactly what you had in mind, but the sandbox aspect seems to be pretty set in stone and foundational to the identity of ipadOS. I don’t think it will become like the macOS file system in any foreseeable future.

For what it’s worth, I used to often go between using my MacBook docked and mobile, but it became too much of a hassle docking and undocking so frequently, and I eventually just left it docked and got an iPad. With good integration (Continuity and syncing), it’s much easier for me. (Still need my MacBook to be mobile occasionally which is why I didn’t get a desktop Mac.)
 

trip1ex

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2008
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Not sure if Apple would ever make ipadOS handle that many windows. Since it would need an external monitor, it would probably need to work on any external monitor; and until now iOS/ipadOS has been designed for a small set of screen sizes and resolutions, so it seems like it would require a big overhaul of the OS and all the apps to be able to support all monitors. I’m sure it’s possible, but just not sure if the market (people who want to use external monitors with iPads) for that is big enough for Apple and developers to go to that effort.
As far as the file system, not sure exactly what you had in mind, but the sandbox aspect seems to be pretty set in stone and foundational to the identity of ipadOS. I don’t think it will become like the macOS file system in any foreseeable future.

For what it’s worth, I used to often go between using my MacBook docked and mobile, but it became too much of a hassle docking and undocking so frequently, and I eventually just left it docked and got an iPad. With good integration (Continuity and syncing), it’s much easier for me. (Still need my MacBook to be mobile occasionally which is why I didn’t get a desktop Mac.)

yep we know how it is designed roughly speaking. But the iPad already does 2 windows and it already hooks up to monitors. IN both cases though less than ideal. :) And the iPad not too long ago got a very rudimentary file system as well.

It just needs to go from clunky to elegant in these areas. Much like it went from clunky to elegant recently in terms of m/k support.

I don't think it needs to reach the mac in terms of functionalty/features/etc. It should remain pretty simple.
 

trip1ex

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2008
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For what it’s worth, I used to often go between using my MacBook docked and mobile, but it became too much of a hassle docking and undocking so frequently, and I eventually just left it docked and got an iPad. With good integration (Continuity and syncing), it’s much easier for me. (Still need my MacBook to be mobile occasionally which is why I didn’t get a desktop Mac.)

Yeah at the (end) of last year I had a Mini and a cheap iPad. It was fine. But I sold my 2012 Mini because M1 Macs were out and I was either going to go with one of those or get out of the Mac altogether. And well I got an M1 and it's fine but I boxed it back up and am going to return it. I just don't feel like I need it.

I do have a gaming pc tho. So that's my big screen and a reason I can go without a Mac. Before I just used my gaming pc to game. And used the Mac for everything else. It just turned out that over the years, the iPad/iPHone has replaced what I used to do on the Mini. To the point where the Mini really only became a $600+ dock for a 24" monitor & m/k & printer.

I guess that isn't too bad a price for a Dock made by Apple. I mean my M1 Mini was only $589 refurb. ...So if i had no gaming pc ok I probably would keep my Apple Dock.

But I didn't really need it any longer. And maybe a bit out of principle, I just felt like well I'm not going to support buying the $600 dock when the iPad seems to be perfectly capable of becoming a desktop chrome book at the very least.

Part of what put me on that thought train is I tried out m/k on the iPad last year after an update. I was shocked it worked so good. All it really needed was real big screen support for me.
 
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subjonas

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Feb 10, 2014
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yep we know how it is designed roughly speaking. But the iPad already does 2 windows and it already hooks up to monitors. IN both cases though less than ideal. :) And the iPad not too long ago got a very rudimentary file system as well.

It just needs to go from clunky to elegant in these areas. Much like it went from clunky to elegant recently in terms of m/k support.

I don't think it needs to reach the mac in terms of functionalty/features/etc. It should remain pretty simple.
It’s not just a matter of refinement though. It was a pretty big effort for Apple and developers to add multitasking to the iPad (and there are still developers who haven’t yet come on board), and adding mirrored display support was relatively a cinch since it’s just mirrored. But going to full external display support (with extended display and matching resolution) is a different beast. The amount of effort required from Apple and developers to implement apps correctly on all the different monitor sizes and resolutions would be humongous. Again, it’s possible, but I think the demand for full external monitor support is much less than the demand was for multitasking on the iPad screen, but much more effort, so I don’t think it’s likely. I could be wrong though.

Yeah at the of last year I had a Mini and a cheap iPad. It was fine. But I sold my 2012 Mini because M1 Macs were out and I was either going to go with one of those or get out of the Mac altogether. And well I got an M1 and it's fine but I boxed it back up and am going to return it. I just don't feel like I need it.

I do have a gaming pc tho. So that's my big screen and a reason I can go without a Mac. Before I just used my gaming pc to game. And the used the Mac for everything else. It just turned out that over the years the iPad/iPHone has replaced what I used to do on the Mini. To the point where the Mini really only became a $600+ dock for a 24" monitor & m/k & printer.

I guess that isn't too bad a price for a Dock made by Apple. I mean my M1 Mini was only $589 refurb. ...So if i had no gaming pc ok I probably would keep my Apple Dock.

But I didn't really need it any longer. And maybe a bit out of principle, I just felt like well I'm not going to support buying the $600 dock when the iPad seems to be perfectly capable of becoming a desktop chrome book at the very least.

Part of what put me on that thought train is I tried out m/k on the iPad last year after an update. I was shocked it worked so good. All it really needed was real big screen support for me.
Yeah I think you’re pretty set with your iPad and gaming PC, sounds like no need for a Mac.
If you didn’t have the pc, it would be a tough call, depending on how often you need the bigger screen. If you need it often then I’d say definitely a basic Mac mini would ideal. If very occasionally, that’s when a dockable iPad starts to make more sense (if it existed).
But I think overall the main reason people want a dockable iPad is to save money, not necessarily because it would be a better user experience. While it’s a given that Apple isn’t looking for ways to save people money, I do think they believe that Mac and iPad integration is the better user experience, as opposed to docking, hybrids, etc. And from my experience, I tend to agree.
 
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trip1ex

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It’s not just a matter of refinement though. It was a pretty big effort for Apple and developers to add multitasking to the iPad (and there are still developers who haven’t yet come on board), and adding mirrored display support was relatively a cinch since it’s just mirrored. But going to full external display support (with extended display and matching resolution) is a different beast. The amount of effort required from Apple and developers to implement apps correctly on all the different monitor sizes and resolutions would be humongous. Again, it’s possible, but I think the demand for full external monitor support is much less than the demand was for multitasking on the iPad screen, but much more effort, so I don’t think it’s likely. I could be wrong though.



Well they made the iPad an ok laptop experience with the magic keyboard and the new and improved m/k support. And lots of people hook up their laptops to bigger screens. ;)

The effort to support big screens is nothing they haven't done before. And they've shown they will put "effort" into adding new features to make the iPad more Mac-like (such as) multitasking and the iPad OS mouse cursor system etc.

Yeah I think you’re pretty set with your iPad and gaming PC, sounds like no need for a Mac.
If you didn’t have the pc, it would be a tough call, depending on how often you need the bigger screen. If you need it often then I’d say definitely a basic Mac mini would ideal. If very occasionally, that’s when a dockable iPad starts to make more sense (if it existed).
But I think overall the main reason people want a dockable iPad is to save money, not necessarily because it would be a better user experience. While it’s a given that Apple isn’t looking for ways to save people money, I do think they believe that Mac and iPad integration is the better user experience, as opposed to docking, hybrids, etc. And from my experience, I tend to agree.

Yeah saving money is a reason no doubt. I mean why do I have to buy a Mini and an IPad when Apple has touted the iPHone as having a faster cpu than the average Windows laptops for years now. ;) And, for example, obviously most customers get MBAs for $1k or less instead of buying a $2200 MBP despite the MBA not being as nice of an experience overall. IT's the same mentality.

I wouldn't say Apple thinks the Mac and iPad integration is a better experience. I mean, again, they made the Magic Keyboard and added really good mouse cursor support. And they added multi-tasking. So obviously the iPad is a work in progress and is getting more Mac-like features as time goes on. IF Apple doesn't believe Ipad can be the one device for some (then) it has a funny way of showing it.

So, if anything, adding like external support seems more like a matter of time than a not happening kind of thing.
 
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subjonas

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Feb 10, 2014
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Well they made the iPad an ok laptop experience with the magic keyboard and the new and improved m/k support. And lots of people hook up their laptops to bigger screens. ;)

The effort to support big screens is nothing they haven't done before. And they've shown they will put "effort" into adding new features to make the iPad more Mac-like (such as) multitasking and the iPad OS mouse cursor system etc.
Just because Apple added features to iPad that are similar to features on Mac doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to do more though. Just like the Apple Watch has become a little more iPhone-like over the years (barometer, gps, lte, Siri, bigger screen), that doesn’t mean it’s eventually going to do everything an iPhone does, then eventually everything an iPad does, then ultimately everything a Mac does. It might not be a trajectory that keeps going forever. The iPhone, iPad, and Watch are relatively new devices compared to traditional computers so they’re still growing into their own and stealing features here and there, but they’re all ultimately different devices with different focuses. The iPad could adopt more Mac features, or it could not. Again, I think it comes down to what Apple thinks is worth the effort (return on investment), and if it’s in line with their vision for the device.

Yeah saving money is a reason no doubt. I mean why do I have to buy a Mini and an IPad when Apple has touted the iPHone as having a faster cpu than the average Windows laptops for years now. ;) And, for example, obviously most customers get MBAs for $1k or less instead of buying a $2200 MBP despite the MBA not being as nice of an experience overall. IT's the same mentality.
But from Apple’s perspective, offering different levels of MacBooks has a different motivation. That’s about the necessity of reaching big markets. Apple has to offer a less expensive MacBook because if they don’t, they’d lose a ton of market share to less expensive Windows laptops. In contrast, they aren’t really losing any market share by not offering full external monitor support on the iPad right now. Not sure if any android tablets have that function, but either way iPads still dominate the tablet market. Windows hybrids compete mostly with MacBooks than iPads, but either way they aren’t really a threat either.

I wouldn't say Apple thinks the Mac and iPad integration is a better experience. I mean, again, they made the Magic Keyboard and added really good mouse cursor support. And they added multi-tasking. So obviously the iPad is a work in progress and is getting more Mac-like features as time goes on. IF Apple doesn't believe Ipad can be the one device for some (then) it has a funny way of showing it.

So, if anything, adding like external support seems more like a matter of time than a not happening kind of thing.
They’ve explicitly said that the iPad and Mac will not merge on several occasions, and that they believe macs and iPads work well together. Over the years they’ve added sync and Continuity features to make the experience pretty seamless.
Like I mentioned above, yes the iPad is relatively young and getting more functions in general, and some of those functions have been Mac-like, but that doesn’t indicate it will receive all Mac functions nor is it even a guarantee there will be any more Mac-like functions.

Apple does believe the iPad can be the one device for some, as they’ve said so explicitly. So since iPads don’t fully support external monitors, that must mean they expect anyone who needs full external monitor support to have a traditional computer.

So if we are to believe them at their word, then we know there is a line between Mac and iPad which the iPad will not cross. But we can only make educated guesses as to where that line is.

I do agree Apple has sent mixed messages though. Initially, they discredited the idea of a touch screen on a laptop form factor, yet that’s exactly what the iPad with Smart Keyboard was, until cursor support/magic keyboard was released. But again, I think the Smart Keyboard came about because of big demand and low effort (high return on investment), and cursor support had to follow to complete the form factor (but also had high return on investment).
 

trip1ex

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Jan 10, 2008
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Just because Apple added features to iPad that are similar to features on Mac doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to do more though. Just like the Apple Watch has become a little more iPhone-like over the years (barometer, gps, lte, Siri, bigger screen), that doesn’t mean it’s eventually going to do everything an iPhone does, then eventually everything an iPad does, then ultimately everything a Mac does. It might not be a trajectory that keeps going forever. The iPhone, iPad, and Watch are relatively new devices compared to traditional computers so they’re still growing into their own and stealing features here and there, but they’re all ultimately different devices with different focuses. The iPad could adopt more Mac features, or it could not. Again, I think it comes down to what Apple thinks is worth the effort (return on investment), and if it’s in line with their vision for the device.


But from Apple’s perspective, offering different levels of MacBooks has a different motivation. That’s about the necessity of reaching big markets. Apple has to offer a less expensive MacBook because if they don’t, they’d lose a ton of market share to less expensive Windows laptops. In contrast, they aren’t really losing any market share by not offering full external monitor support on the iPad right now. Not sure if any android tablets have that function, but either way iPads still dominate the tablet market. Windows hybrids compete mostly with MacBooks than iPads, but either way they aren’t really a threat either.


They’ve explicitly said that the iPad and Mac will not merge on several occasions, and that they believe macs and iPads work well together. Over the years they’ve added sync and Continuity features to make the experience pretty seamless.
Like I mentioned above, yes the iPad is relatively young and getting more functions in general, and some of those functions have been Mac-like, but that doesn’t indicate it will receive all Mac functions nor is it even a guarantee there will be any more Mac-like functions.

Apple does believe the iPad can be the one device for some, as they’ve said so explicitly. So since iPads don’t fully support external monitors, that must mean they expect anyone who needs full external monitor support to have a traditional computer.

So if we are to believe them at their word, then we know there is a line between Mac and iPad which the iPad will not cross. But we can only make educated guesses as to where that line is.

I do agree Apple has sent mixed messages though. Initially, they discredited the idea of a touch screen on a laptop form factor, yet that’s exactly what the iPad with Smart Keyboard was, until cursor support/magic keyboard was released. But again, I think the Smart Keyboard came about because of big demand and low effort (high return on investment), and cursor support had to follow to complete the form factor (but also had high return on investment).

There is no line. There is only make each product better.

Obviously there is a decent chance that they add external monitor support to the iPad in the future. Whether it happens or not and when it happens if it does who knows. But pretty obvious it is well within the realm of possible future features given the direction they've been heading with the iPad.
 

tops2

macrumors 6502
Dec 30, 2014
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Wow..so last week I got a company issued M1 MacBook Pro (my first Mac computer). For work wise, its pretty much a super charged iPad with all the limitations lifted...and I love it! The battery life is awesome (almost 2 days of work on it and I'm currently sitting at 49% battery). The past year of using Magic Trackpad on the iPad has translated well into the MacBook. I'm able to fly through switching apps fluidly utilizing all gestures (I can't switch as seamless on Windows despite being a Windows user forever). There's some things I'm getting used to coming from the Windows world. The friction I felt using the iPad is gone on the MacBook. Sidecar works well in a pinch.

That said..outside of work..it does feel like the MacBook is way overkill. I can still do most basic things on my iPads. I picked the 16 GB ram and 1TB storage which puts the price much higher than if I had to purchase it for myself. If I had to purchase it for myself, I'd probably look at the MacBook Air with 8 GB (or 16 GB) and 512 GB ssd.
 
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