I am no artist but I find Sketchbook to be a very nice Procreate alternative and it's free. Sophisticated users have things like Photoshop and Clip Studio. I have no idea for animation.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
iPad Pro iPad Pro M4 vs. Microsoft's New Surface Pro 11: Sound Off!
- Thread starter Kahnforever
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I do have an idea about how those 2 in 1 things sell - they sell so well that all of the manufacturers had to enter a partnership in order to have any chance taking on Apple's MacOS + iPad range. There's statistics published quarterly, it's not a secret that things were not going so well.
Windows being garbage has nothing to do with the forum platform you're discussing it on, it's objectively flawed, inefficient, non-secure, non-flexible and unreliable in actual, measurable ways. All you need to do is grab it in your hands, pay attention and understand what's going on here.
Just about every other popular OS is way ahead of it by today's standards.
People use it because they often have no other choice or don't know any better - Microsoft has dug itself deep in several sectors (through very questionable practices, no less) and positioned itself to deliver on quantity, not quality.
And Microsoft knows that very well, they tried refactoring core services and essentially gave up, now they're just slapping on band-aid after band-aid, hoping that people don't notice and that it doesn't fall apart. Now they're trying a 2nd attempt at ARM after failing miserably the first time around, and I'd not be surprised if it's as half-assed of an effort as it was before. Apple at least had the conviction to make a difficult call and commit to it 100%.
The un-docked surface will not come anywhere close to being a tablet comparable to the UX you get on an iPad, it will once again take the first round of people to burn themselves believing it can, only to realize it's heavy, badly optimized and ultimately unusable. To have a good tablet - and you know, use it with your hands only - you need a touch-first OS, which Windows is not. They tried with Windows 8 and failed miserably.
And the pencil - please, I've tried all sorts of these windows machines that seemingly support it and none of them come close to the low latency, responsiveness and functionality you get on an IPP.
Microsoft will try to lure in some quick cash by milking the AI buzzwords and then probably side-line ARM development once again, because they lack conviction and talent to actually bring any innovation.
So, go AI PCs!!
FTFY
Ok, I was harsh - I think Surface Pro is a actually solid laptop for those that want to use the pen. I like it a lot. But it's not competing with the iPad directly, I'd say.
Quotation?
No, Windows is pretty much bad everywhere - people buy PCs for hardware or certain software (especially games), not for Windows. Even Windows fans are mostly fans of the 10, not the 11. It's getting bloated and comes with ads. Sure, some people prefer it to macOS. Some people prefer vanilla to chocolate, too. There's all kinds of people. But Windows 11 is not, generally speaking, considered to be a 'beloved os', even among PC fans.
And I say that as someone who actually likes it, somewhat. Not nearly as much as macOS, ofc. but I do think it's... okay. But to claim that "ton of people prefer Windows"... no, I don't think that's really true. Tons of people are forced to use it. And some are familiar with it so that's why they prefer it to something different. But while a lot of people really like macOS, and I don't think anyone really likes Windows. Accept it? Tolerate it? Not mind it? Sure. But that's it.
you are so biased it's not even worth discussing this any further
I don't love Windows and I do install software to make Windows 11 work like 10 (although 11 has some benefits too), but if I have to chose (I am not forced by anyone) I do prefer Windows to MacOS despite all the Microsoft en********ation. It's not that I hate MacOS (although there are many things that Windows does better in my opinion) or love Windows, but the apps I use daily just don't run on it. End of the story.
Hardware wise I like having pen support, for me it's a big deal. And I like having cellular support.
In Macs I like the ARM chips, but that's coming to Windows devices too now.
I was jesting. Besides, MacOS on an iPad would be as rough an experience as Windows 11 on a tablet.
Apple has a touchscreen prototype and have filed patents for large touchscreen tech. So it's coming, whether you like it or not.
Whether its for iPads, or a touchscreen MacBook or a new class of device, no one knows.
That's just not true, it's just an opinion. Windows is no better or worse than MacOS.
They were discussing this system on MacBreak Weekly and they commented that its OS sucks up your personal data like Facebook does.
Apple has to move quickly and make advancements software-wise. Microsoft is far ahead with their suite of 365 Apps including Teams. Teams is actually very good, and makes iMessage look like a toy. I just created an AI chatbot with Copilot studio and trained it in a matter of minutes.
I just created a project in MS Project which has AI and is mapped right into a Teams chat channel with a good UI.
Apple needs to compete with this. Right now they aren’t. macOS and Apple’s suite of applications, aside from FCP, are way out of date.
There needs to be significant software advancement across the line, including all of this working on the iPad and iPhone. Microsoft has done a good job on their suite of applications as they run everywhere: on desktop, inside Teams, in the Browser, in native iOS and iPadOS Apps, etc.
Apple needs to have all their Apps run in a browser as well and improve the ones that already do. And I have said for a long time Apple should do a search engine with AI and maps and a bunch of things built in, and they should screen every Website that gets listed in its index. So there becomes a high quality, clean web.
Doing all of this, Apple will strengthen its mobile device experience.
I just created a project in MS Project which has AI and is mapped right into a Teams chat channel with a good UI.
Apple needs to compete with this. Right now they aren’t. macOS and Apple’s suite of applications, aside from FCP, are way out of date.
There needs to be significant software advancement across the line, including all of this working on the iPad and iPhone. Microsoft has done a good job on their suite of applications as they run everywhere: on desktop, inside Teams, in the Browser, in native iOS and iPadOS Apps, etc.
Apple needs to have all their Apps run in a browser as well and improve the ones that already do. And I have said for a long time Apple should do a search engine with AI and maps and a bunch of things built in, and they should screen every Website that gets listed in its index. So there becomes a high quality, clean web.
Doing all of this, Apple will strengthen its mobile device experience.
Is creating AI chatbots something that consumers want to be able to do in iMessage? I use Teams every day; there’s no way that my wife or kids would have any interest in it or it’s corporate-focused capabilities.
It seems like Apple may be ramping up their AI efforts in the near future, but I’m not sure how or why Apple needs to compete with Microsoft in productivity AI tools as they are focusing on different market requirements.
These are all things that you want and value, but I am not sold on your idea that these things are what Apple needs to be focused on. They are, at the end of the day, a consumer electronics company and have become one of the most valuable and respected brands in history by focusing on that. They skewed away from the corporate productivity market a long time ago and have successfully targeted individuals as creatives, young/individual professionals with relatively simple office needs (like me, minus the young part), and even just users who like nice-looking, easy to use gadgets.
It’s great and important that Microsoft is developing these tools; I fear that Apple would be diluting their core competencies by trying to complete in a sector that they really aren’t built for.
Teams + New MS Planner/Project + Loop is a killer combination for project management.
According to Macbreak Weekly Apple is working on a advanced AI powered version of Siri. As you can expect from
Apple no details but the word is that is why the M4 brought out now. It was not expected until early next year. I'll bet the Head honchos at Apple looking at the Copilot+ PCs realized it was time to get moving. You can bet they have been working on this for years but didn't see any urgency until now.
Apple no details but the word is that is why the M4 brought out now. It was not expected until early next year. I'll bet the Head honchos at Apple looking at the Copilot+ PCs realized it was time to get moving. You can bet they have been working on this for years but didn't see any urgency until now.
Yes Apple needs to do these things… Apple doesn’t just cater to consumers. They cater to creators / entrepreneurs. Apple has tried to offer business solutions as well but it is very limited. They killed their OS server product, and they don’t have good enough software to back up their efforts. Yet they still try to offer business solutions.
Apple has tried things like business chat in iMessage with direct links from an Apple Maps listing that has gone nowhere. They need a much more robust and cohesive vision.
If Apple can move online and do search, all of these things start to come together in various ways as well.
I have always thought the Surface Pro line was the best alternative for my search for the 1 device. A device that can be mouse/keyboard driven workhorse with desktop apps when I need it to be and a device that I can remove keyboard and veg on the sofa for content consumption.
The downside to Surface has always been that Windows OS is not a great touch first tablet. Given this device is powered by ARM - if it has the ability to run Android apps natively (not thorough emulator) that would overcome that limitations and this could be the one device I buy.
How could Apple get there?
1. Give iPadOS the ability to run desktop class apps with mouse/keyboard
2. Design a MacBook with with detachable keyboard and the ability to run ALL iPadOS apps
The downside to Surface has always been that Windows OS is not a great touch first tablet. Given this device is powered by ARM - if it has the ability to run Android apps natively (not thorough emulator) that would overcome that limitations and this could be the one device I buy.
How could Apple get there?
1. Give iPadOS the ability to run desktop class apps with mouse/keyboard
2. Design a MacBook with with detachable keyboard and the ability to run ALL iPadOS apps
Except, it's not just an option. Factors such as: being more secure by design, being more efficient with h/w resource use, being more stable, having a more consistent and smoother UI, not containing ads, having more useful and consistent keyboard shortcuts, having better trackpad support, more consistent and reliable Bluetooth device management etc.. most of these you could easily objectively quantify.
If you brush all that off as "that's just like, your opinion man", then I'm afraid you're lying to yourself. That's of course not to say Windows doesn't have some objective wins as well.
Are you using these on macOS or Windows? My clients are largely MS shops and I use a Mac. Many use Teams and assign MS365 accounts to our consultants working on their accounts. I recently tried to use the new MS Planner with Teams on Mac to assist with project management for a client and it was infuriating. After an hour of searching and mucking around Teams glitches I finally got something working, but the experience reinforced my belief that Microsoft deliberately sabotages Mac user experiences across their software products to make Windows look better.
Over the past year Teams and Office on Mac have taken a nose dive in reliability and usability for me. The New Teams crashes regularly particularly when sharing, the sharing menu is littered with artifacts like icons for every window that’s open — in addition to the windows themselves; Teams is constantly trying to hijack hardware by prompting to connect to Bluetooth devices and network devices and attempting to offer Microsoft Audio subsystem drivers instead of Mac defaults; and Teams overrides Mac settings for default microphone and camera.
Most insidiously, OneDrive manages to insinuate itself between MS apps and iCloud even when you create documents directly in iCloud. Somehow it worms itself into the file storage chain without you knowing it and inevitably Client A files end up on Client B OneDrive, etc. I’ve even tried disabling OneDrive, but somehow it ends up reactivated.
It seems like the only way to save your sanity is to just roll over and let MS apps have their way with your Mac. I refuse to do that so I fight the fight against MS colonization of my Mac and data every day. I wish Apple would take note of this systematic sabotage of macOS and do something to further lock MS apps down to protect the macOS user experience.
Last edited:
In terms of enterprise Microsoft is way ahead. Apple really dropped the ball on this one.
the entire 365 toolset is very nice to use.
compared with iWork which is only ok for personal use
the entire 365 toolset is very nice to use.
compared with iWork which is only ok for personal use
I use iWork professionally (particularly Keynote and Pages) and prefer it to MS365 / Office. The only reason I use MS is for compatibility with clients. And, are you referring to MS365 on Windows or Mac? Microsoft has deliberately hobbled the toolset on Mac and I constantly have to boot up Parallels and Office/365 for Windows to work around the issues with Office/365 on Mac.
On Windows
I agree that MS products on Mac / iPad are limited. Especially Excel is behind in features I need.
I would love for bootcamp to come back. So I can enjoy the excellent Apple hardware with Windows
Or at the very least - re-enable the Hypervisor on iPad that was blocked starting with iPadOS 16.4 and change the App store rules to allow virtualization apps. This would allow Parallels to develop an iPad version so we could have a Windows ARM VM on iPad.
I know there is a holy war over MacOS on iPad hardware but honestly for a small number of tasks, I just need a desktop OS and Apps (mainly MS Office, real desktop class browser). It doesn't have to MacOS, Windows will work. And before you tell me to go buy a laptop, I already have 2 - I just want to bring a single device sometimes.