iPad Pro iPad Pro M4 vs. Microsoft's New Surface Pro 11: Sound Off!

[Macalway]

It's more than just fan noise. It's a moving part, very small and fragile, constantly subject to outside elements, sucking in air and dust.

For those of us who need to keep things running 24/7, it may not be something we want. Sure, with the Macs you don't notice it, and who knows how it runs all day, nevertheless....

 

[Pezimak]

Microsoft just launched a new line of Surface, with the new Surface Pro 11 with a 13" screen, OLED option with HDR, up to 32 GB RAM and the new Flex keyboard with 14% larger trackpad and more carbon fibre for stiffness, and a slim pen. How do you think it compares to the new iPad Pro M4s?

Some specs:

• Snapdragon X Plus or X Elite
• Up to 32GB LPDDR5x RAM
• Up to 1 TB SSD
• 13-inch PixelSense Flow Display - upgradeable to OLED with 900 nits peak brightness
• Qualcomm's NPU inside these devices (capable of up to 45 trillion operations per second)
• QHD Surface Studio camera with Windows Hello, 10MP rear-facing camera
• 1.97 lbs.

Here's a video:

Here's a reference article:

The new, faster Surface Pro is Microsoft’s all-purpose AI PC

Microsoft’s AI PCs are here in a big way.

www.theverge.com

Both excellent devices, hampered by software.
However it does mean ARM based Windows development will push ahead so fingers crossed Bootcamp returns to the Mac?!?!?!? 🤞🤞🤞😀

Interested to see the OLED screen comparisons. See how much better Apples dual screen idea is over standard OLED.

 

[ZombiePete]

I mean, the average consumer can run YouTube and Netflix on a Surface about as easily as they can on an iPad. Unless you think tablet-based music and video editing tools are any less niche than PowerPoint.

My experience with Windows on a Surface has been that media consumption, mobile gaming, etc. was not nearly as easy or intuitive as it is on something like an iPad or Android device. The “pick up and use” experience in Windows just isn’t there.

Probably isn't, but there are a lot of people (myself included) who want a good crossover device. The Surface is exactly that.

Whether it’s a “good” crossover device is subjective; in my opinion and experience the Surface Pro is neither a good laptop nor a good tablet; it’s simply a lot of one and a little bit of the other, but excels at none of it. Using it on the couch with the keyboard is a bad experience, and using Windows without a mouse/keyboard is a highly-compromised experience.

That’s just my opinion, of course. Like I said, if people are happy with Surface as an all-in-one I hope it continues to get better and fully meets your needs. At the end of the day comparing the Surface and the iPad is silly because they’re built to cater to very different needs. I hope that the ARM chips makes your Surface experience awesome.

 

[cardfan]

As another poster wrote, I would like to see reviews of ARM performance (including emulation) first before committing.

Me too but can’t depend on reviews. I’m the review.

 

[Macalway]

I think this Copilot thing is interesting. It needs this monster 40TOPS thing to run it, and it's really going to max the fan out LOL.

I have some questions. Has anyone used this? I haven't a clue how this is going to go down.

 

[fw85]

I mean, the average consumer can run YouTube and Netflix on a Surface about as easily as they can on an iPad. Unless you think tablet-based music and video editing tools are any less niche than PowerPoint.

The tablet versions of these apps are easier to use and better optimized for a touch first UX.

Windows is garbage at trying to adapt itself to a tablet form factor, always has been. Microsoft tried entering the tablet space and failed miserably, no surprise there. At this point they're just rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

The future will be similar to how Jobs described the post-PC era. Mobile personal computing. Phones and tablets will dominate. Gen Z and Alpha are proving the point already with this paradigm shift. The average consumer does not need to sit behind a PC or a laptop for the vast majority of their needs now - it's not practical anymore.

 

[pugxiwawa]

Spend less and you can get BOTH tablet and laptop, vs spending MORE to be able to run as singular tablet function.

Apple is making a mistake. Tablet is a slow/dying market. No amount of hardware improvement will change the fact iPadOS is terrible.

 

[Isengardtom]

Definitely an interesting device.

For productivity (Office 365 mainly), most likely much better than the MacBook Air and definitely the iPad Pro. For more creative work, especially drawing, the iPad Pro will most likely be better.

But as a tablet, this isn’t it. Way too heavy. (About 1/3 heavier than the new iPad Pro.).

The quality of the emulation will make or break this device though.

 

[Isengardtom]

Spend less and you can get BOTH tablet and laptop, vs spending MORE to be able to run as singular tablet function.

Apple is making a mistake. Tablet is a slow/dying market. No amount of hardware improvement will change the fact iPadOS is terrible.

I don’t think tablets are a dying market. It’s just that they last pretty long and people don’t replace them as often.

 

[ZombiePete]

Spend less and you can get BOTH tablet and laptop, vs spending MORE to be able to run as singular tablet function.

Spend less? In what configuration? A base model iPad is $350; that’s $150 less than the new Surface keyboard. If you want to compare Pro models, the base configuration Surface Pro with OLED is $1500 without any accessories.

You might be making the case that with the iPad you have to buy a MacBook and an iPad to have both a computer and tablet experience, but even a base model M3 MBA and an iPad would cost less than the base model Surface Pro w/OLED.

I also would make the case that the Surface Pro is not as good a laptop as a MBA, and it’s not as good a tablet as an iPad; at some point you’re making a compromise to best fit your needs.

Apple is making a mistake. Tablet is a slow/dying market. No amount of hardware improvement will change the fact iPadOS is terrible.

The tablet market has slowed (dying? come on) because Apple has absolutely dominated it with the iPad, and the iPad experience hasn’t changed enough for a lot of people to choose to upgrade. Arguing that Apple is making a mistake in a market they have essentially owned for years is a bit hyperbolic.

EDIT: Some of my math might not have been based on solid figures; ignore me and buy whatever makes you happy. I hope the Surface Pro is awesome.

 

[Digitalguy]

Spend less? In what configuration? A base model iPad is $350; that’s $150 less than the new Surface keyboard. If you want to compare Pro models, the base configuration Surface Pro with OLED is $1500 without any accessories.

You might be making the case that with the iPad you have to buy a MacBook and an iPad to have both a computer and tablet experience, but even a base model M3 MBA and an iPad would cost less than the base model Surface Pro w/OLED.

I also would make the case that the Surface Pro is not as good a laptop as a MBA, and it’s not as good a tablet as an iPad; at some point you’re making a compromise to best fit your needs.



The tablet market has slowed (dying? come on) because Apple has absolutely dominated it with the iPad, and the iPad experience hasn’t changed enough for a lot of people to choose to upgrade. Arguing that Apple is making a mistake in a market they have essentially owned for years is a bit hyperbolic.

This is a bit of nitpicking specs for the sake of arguments.
1. The new keyboard is not $450, it's $350, $450 is with the pen, and you are not including the pencil with the iPad.
2. Non wireless keyboards were confirmed to be available from the first reviewers, what is not confirmed is if they are the same as old ones or if they have a new wired connector. So $350 is only if you want a wirless keyboard (apples to apples).
3. The MBA does not have a OLED display, nor does the iPad, but you are conveninently taking the $1500 oled model instead of the $999 LCD Surface to make your argument.
4. This is more subjective but "Surface Pro [with the new Snapdragon chips] is not as good a laptop as a MBA" is yet to be seen if you are OS agnostic. If your argument is it's not confortable on the lap, sure, but for some people that's not even an argument as they are going to very rarely use it on their lap (and when necessary it's feasible).
And they would definitely take the convenience of the lower weight and lower price in exchange for using on the lap every now and then.
Mind you, that's not me, I have more devices than most people. But not everyone is like me, and some would love to have a single device that can be both, at least on the go.

 

[ZombiePete]

This is a bit of nitpicking specs for the sake of arguments.
1. The new keyboard is not $450, it's $350, $450 is with the pen, and you are not including the pencil with the iPad.
2. Non wireless keyboards were confirmed to be available from the first reviewers, what is not confirmed is if they are the same as old ones or if they have a new wired connector. So $350 is only if you want a wirless keyboard (apples to apples).
3. The MBA does not have a OLED display, nor does the iPad, but you are conveninently taking the $1500 oled model instead of the $999 LCD Surface to make your argument.
4. This is more subjective but "Surface Pro [with the new Snapdragon chips] is not as good a laptop as a MBA" is yet to be seen if you are OS agnostic. If your argument is it's not confortable on the lap, sure, but for some people that's not even an argument as they are going to very rarely use it on their lap (and when necessary it's feasible).
And they would definitely take the convenience of the lower weight and lower price in exchange for using on the lap every now and then.
Mind you, that's not me, I have more devices than most people. But not everyone is like me, and some would love to have a single device that can be both, at least on the go.

I might have gotten a little lazy with my math; I could’ve sworn I read on Verge that the new keyboard was $500.

Not that it really matters; I feel silly even engaging in these comparisons honestly. Everyone should buy what they want.

 

[klasma]

I have some questions. Has anyone used this? I haven't a clue how this is going to go down.

Release is in four weeks.

 

[DeepSix]

Surface Pro is great used solely as an ultrabook. You just have to buy them on sale. The pricing on the new models actually look reasonable and not ridiculous like the Pro 9 was at debut. The kickstand is awesome. I’ve had Surface Pros in the past where I never removed the keyboard. I am interested in this new one but waiting for reviews first. Then I would just buy one of the current gen type covers for $200 (don’t care or want the pen) and use that since Im not willing to pay $600CAD for the new wireless one.

 

[heretiq]

This would be a great machine for the folks wanting a more "Pro" iPad!

Last I checked, those folks wanted macOS on the iPad Pro. A Surface running windows ain’t that.

 

[cnnyy20p]

In terms of functionalities, it is a true Do-it-all device unlike the iPad Pro. So technically it’s a more practical device for everyone. What’s falling apart is the lower quality in user experience.

 

[fw85]

In terms of functionalities, it is a true Do-it-all device unlike the iPad Pro. So technically it’s a more practical device for everyone. What’s falling apart is the lower quality in user experience.

Nobody wants to use a 'do-it-all' device that does it all poorly though. We are in 2024, not 2010 anymore.
User experience standards for tech are way higher now, as they should be, it's just that Microsoft seemingly didn't get the memo.

 

[Digitalguy]

Nobody wants to use a 'do-it-all' device that does it all poorly though. We are in 2024, not 2010 anymore.
User experience standards for tech are way higher now, as they should be, it's just that Microsoft seemingly didn't get the memo.

Nobody? I certain't don't, but why should I assume other people don't either. I think a lot would like to have one device, at least on the go. You are just assuming everyone is or should be like you.

 

[pesos]

It remains to be seen. They’ve been trying going ARM for many years now. As a desktop user, it doesn’t really concern me so far, but I also don’t know anybody who owns an ARM Windows laptop.

Been using arm on windows for 5 years now, love it (Surface Pro X gen1, now Surface Pro X gen2). Holding out a bit to see if Lenovo does an arm-based version of the Fold 16 or similar, otherwise I may go for the new Surface Pro.

 

[fw85]

Nobody? I certain't don't, but why should I assume other people don't either. I think a lot would like to have one device, at least on the go. You are just assuming everyone is or should be like you.

Oh no, I'm not under any illusion that my opinion is out there to represent or influence the masses, that would just be silly.

However, what statistics collected over a very long time throughout history show, is that the Microsoft Surface divison has struggled to turn a profit since forever and that 2 in 1 devices (also from other manufacturers) don't sell very well at all in general.

And that's because on paper, they do it all - they have detachable screens that can turn them into tablets, they have pencils that can turn them into notepads or drawing boards and they have attachable keyboards that turn them into laptops.
Except in practice, they are garbage at being tablets due to heavy weight, heat buildup and extremely poor software support. They are garbage at being notepads or drawing boards because their pencil support is bad, the latency is horrid and there's once again the lack of software support. And lastly, they are mediocre laptops at best due to compromises that arose from wanting to 'do-it-all'.

The common denominator here is Windows being a garbage software platform for something that wants to 'do-it-all', it is an antiquated pile of junk with a new UI slapped on top that falls apart the second you require flexibility, security or reliability. And for as long as this is the case, it doesn't matter what hardware they put in, it's going to end up doing it all, poorly, and selling.. poorly.

 

[Digitalguy]

Oh no, I'm not under any illusion that my opinion is out there to represent or influence the masses, that would just be silly.

However, what statistics collected over a very long time throughout history show, is that the Microsoft Surface divison has struggled to turn a profit since forever and that 2 in 1 devices (also from other manufacturers) don't sell very well at all in general.

And that's because on paper, they do it all - they have detachable screens that can turn them into tablets, they have pencils that can turn them into notepads or drawing boards and they have attachable keyboards that turn them into laptops.
Except in practice, they are garbage at being tablets due to heavy weight, heat buildup and extremely poor software support. They are garbage at being notepads or drawing boards because their pencil support is bad, the latency is horrid and there's once again the lack of software support. And lastly, they are mediocre laptops at best due to compromises that arose from wanting to 'do-it-all'.

The common denominator here is Windows being a garbage software platform for something that wants to 'do-it-all', it is an antiquated pile of junk with a new UI slapped on top that falls apart the second you require flexibility, security or reliability. And for as long as this is the case, it doesn't matter what hardware they put in, it's going to end up doing it all, poorly, and selling.. poorly.

You are still assuming a lot of things.
You have no clear idea of how much 2in1 sell collectively... And regardless things are changing with the move to ARM.
The heat and weight you mention is something that can precisely be addressed by the move to ARM.
Extremely poor software is something I disagree with. Windows is garbage on Macrumors where everyone prefers a Mac. In the world as a whole, tons of people prefer Windows to MacOS (I for one do).
Pencil support is bad is just false. EMR tablets have excellent pen support, latency is as good as Apple pencil and there is ton of software that can take advatange of it. And MPP has improved a lot and is now a very decent option.
And what a tablet is, is different from person to person. If you want a stylus to take notes or annotate or draw and want to watch youtube etc. and don't care about apps (that's my case), I can see a Windows tablet like the Surface go with a Snapdragon X chip to be a great iPad (the 10.9/11" size) replacement with much better file management and support for software that the iPad does not support.

 

[Digitalguy]

For those wondering, it has been confirmed any Surface pro 8, 9 and 10 keyboard will work with the new Surface pro 11, and viceversa. The price of a new keyboard starts at $140 but Microsoft wanted to promote the new $350 wireless keyboard ($450 bundled with the pen), so didn't advertise the regular wired keyboards in the marketing material.
In my opinion wireless is great but $350 is overpriced and taken from Apple's MK pricing (also overpriced). Hopefully the wireless option will come down in price and in 6 month it will be $200 purchase.

 

[ZombiePete]

For those wondering, it has been confirmed any Surface pro 8, 9 and 10 keyboard will work with the new Surface pro 11, and viceversa. The price of a new keyboard starts at $140 but Microsoft wanted to promote the new $350 wireless keyboard ($450 bundled with the pen), so didn't advertise the regular wired keyboards in the marketing material.
In my opinion wireless is great but $350 is overpriced and taken from Apple's MK pricing (also overpriced). Hopefully the wireless option will come down in price and in 6 month it will be $200 purchase.

That’s a good move by Microsoft; I guess not making any real changes to the external design of the SP helps.

 

[Sezel]

Are there any good drawing/animating apps for windows as procreate/dreams on iPad?

 

[RoadWarrior56]

IMO, the Surface Pro competes more with Mac's than with iPads. The Surface Pro uses a desktop operating system (Windows) that so happens to have a touch interface. My wife has a Surface Pro 7, and NEVER uses it in tablet mode. She uses it like a laptop. And NOBODY buys a Surface without at least a keyboard, and usually a mouse, even though they are sold separately.

I own and use heavily 2 iPads (Mini 5 and Air 5), and have been an iPhone user since 2013. However, I may be a minority on this forum in two respects. I have been an MS-DOS/Windows user since 1986, and I am probably considerably older than most participates in this forum. I don't use a Mac, nor do I have plans to purchase one. I work in a field of Engineering that is deep in a Windows world. I own a 2017 vintage HP Windows notebook PC. It is an aluminum design that looks a lot like a 13" MacBook Pro, and has specs similar to a late Intel Mac. It has an Intel i7, 16 GB of RAM and a 512 MG SSD. I use a Dell desktop computer with 3 screens, as well, at work. I primarily use engineering design software that is only available on Windows and assumes Intel chips, although it may convert to ARM at some point in the future, I presume.

More relevant to this post, I personally use at least 2 pieces of legacy software that go back over 20 years. One of those programs is one that I wrote and updated over a period of years using a release of Microsoft Visual Basic software that was last sold before 2000, and I sold it to other engineers for number of years. I still use it as a key part of my workflow. It still works well for every version of Windows through Windows 10. I assume all of this software would also work on Windows 11, but I have not converted, to date. Don't get me going on a rant about Microsoft's proposed end of life for Windows 10, that is for another forum, as my 2017 laptop is not "eligible" for an upgrade, due to the age of my chip. My i7 is the seventh generation. Windows 11 is designed for an 8th generation or newer.

I am very dubious of converting to Windows ARM computers from Intel. I would have to try "Prism" (Microsoft's version of Rosetta) extensively to verify that these old programs would even work. If I were buying a Mac, I would be very happy with one of the latest Apple Silicon models. My iPad Air has an M1, for that matter. But Windows computers based on Intel go back decades, when Intel Macs only existed for about 15 years. Long-time users like me likely use at least some legacy software that is no longer supported and will never be updated. Will those work on ARM Windows? I have my doubts. The bottom line is - I think Microsoft will have a much more difficult time transitioning away from Intel than Apple ever did, and I will be one of the very last users to do it.