iPhone 7 Plus Dual Camera lacks Optical Image Stabilization in the Telephoto Lens [MERGED]

[HEK]

I dont think you read the article from 9to5mac i posted above, the KGI Analyst Ming-Chi Kuo who has a nearly solid track record of providing precise insider info on apple's plans for future product releases says that apple did not include OIS on the telephoto lens because they plan to include it in the next iPhone release (iPhone 7S? iPhone 8? or whatever they may call it), That's the issue.

The fact that there is an analyst that already has this information is beyond staggering to me, because up until now nobody even knew the Telephoto lens has no OIS and now not only do we know the iPhone 7 Plus doesn't have OIS in the telephoto lens, We know that the next iPhone IS going to have that feature added, its already part of the planned "Upgrade" to the Dual Camera in the future iPhone. They are going to need to improve the camera somehow in the next iPhone and "OIS in the Telephoto lens" sounds like a pretty darn good upgrade.

And since you mentioned the 4.7inch iPhone 7, I'm Sure they could have somehow added the Dual Camera in it this year but they need a selling point for the Plus Model and the Dual Camera is it's killer feature and they clearly held back and gave the smaller iPhone 7 a single lens camera instead,

Thats exactly what they did last year where the Plus Model of the iPhone 6 and 6S was the only Model that had OIS and the smaller iPhone didn't, What was the reason the smaller iPhone 6 didn't have OIS back then? and now this year the smaller iPhone 7 suddenly has OIS but once again, lacks a major feature compared to the Plus Model, The entire Dual Camera Configuration.
The smaller iPhone will not get a dual camera next year either as the analyst reports so they will be keeping the dual camera configuration strictly to the Plus Model.

I preordered a 128GB Jetblack iPhone 7 Plus the other night when preorders went live knowing that the Camera is going to be a killer feature but finidng out that its missing a crucial feature such as OIS in one of it's lenses is certainly a turn off for me at this point, Im sure its going to be a fantastic phone and an excellent camera regardless, I'm just disappointed Apple would pull this sort of a dirty trick on it's customers.

Your imaginings based on some anylist's "insider info" are simply not enough to declare this a dirty trick. And it negates nothing I stated in my previous post. At some point you have to decide what to release in the current manufacturing cycle, while planning the next. Or you will never make anything.

 

[Dave245]

Nobody is saying that it wont be a game changer nor that it going to be an amazing camera, That's not the point of the argument. The point of the argument is that they KNOWINGLY did not give OIS to the second Telephoto lens in the Dual Camera of the iPhone 7 Plus and have that feature lined up to be added to the new generation of iPhone(iPhone 7S or whatever they will be calling it) and that in my opinion is a deceiving move.

How is it deceiving when they never said it would have OIS to the second telephoto lens. The other lens has it anyway. I don't see a problem here.

 

[Benz63amg]

Your imaginings based on some anylist's "insider info" are simply not enough to declare this a dirty trick. And it negates nothing I stated in my previous post. At some point you have to decide what to release in the current manufacturing cycle, while planning the next. Or you will never make anything.

I'll summarize by saying that we can hope the analyst is wrong here but if it ends up being true then it would certainly be disappointing. And i don't dismiss the excellence of Apple's engineering team to use software to compensate the lack of OIS in the telephoto lens to give the Dual Camera incredible photo taking capabilities but that's not what the argument in this thread is about.

 

[HEK]

I'll summarize by saying that we can hope the analyst is wrong here but if it ends up being true then it would certainly be disappointing. And i don't dismiss the excellence of Apple's engineering team to use software to compensate the lack of OIS in the telephoto lens to give the Dual Camera incredible photo taking capabilities but that's not what the argument in this thread is about.

I would not catagorize the discussion people are having here as an "argument". I see it as voicing varying opinions on a technical function that not everyone agrees as to it's significant effect on a telephoto lense. With that said, there are also varying opinions as to the sneakiness or collusion Apple has or has not perpetrated in regards to having OIS on this iPhone vs the next.

I submit there has been insufficient evidence presented to conclude anything one way or another. To suppose some plot or conspiracy certainly has not been substantiated. Unless some other agendas are at hand, I see no reason whatsoever to take a negative slant.

 

[CthrewU]

I'll summarize by saying that we can hope the analyst is wrong here but if it ends up being true then it would certainly be disappointing. And i don't dismiss the excellence of Apple's engineering team to use software to compensate the lack of OIS in the telephoto lens to give the Dual Camera incredible photo taking capabilities but that's not what the argument in this thread is about.

I'll save you the wait for a tear down and let you know now that the telephoto lens on the 7+ does not have OIS.

 

[lancastor]

Even without using the tele lens, the camera should be a little bit better as previous versions.

So no one must use the second camera.

 

[HEK]

Even without using the tele lens, the camera should be a little bit better as previous versions.

So no one must use the second camera.

Yes the wide angle and flash received the most improvements and those are on both 7 and 7 Plus.

 

[powerbook911]

Am I correct that the only times the telephoto lens will be used is for the 2x optical zoom and that new portrait background blur update coming soon?

 

[truthiness]

is the f/1.8 aperture constant? if so, OIS becomes less of an issue.

 

[lancastor]

Am I correct that the only times the telephoto lens will be used is for the 2x optical zoom and that new portrait background blur update coming soon?

Currently yes.

No one knows if a iOS software update can use both cameras at the same time to improve image quality.

 

[M. Gustave]

If you're aware of the history of OIS on DSLR lenses and cameras you'll know that it only got added to telephotos in the relatively recent past.

Canon's first image stabilized lens was the 75-300, released in 1995. Is that what you mean by "relatively recent "?

The conventional wisdom on OIS is that it becomes less effective the longer the focal length. In fact, OIS on long lenses is considered a marketing gimmick by a lot of photographers.

Even if that were true, the iPhone 7's "long lens" is only 56mm (equivalent), which isn't even a telephoto, it's a "normal" field of view.

If anything, putting OIS on a wide angle lens can be considered the 'gimmick'.

...The solution to camera shake in a telephoto lens is a tripod...

Yes, in 2004. In 2016 we use image stabilized lenses, and crank up the ISO to numbers not possible ten years ago.

 

[bchreng]

is the f/1.8 aperture constant? if so, OIS becomes less of an issue.

The wide angle is f/1.8 but the telephoto is f/2.8

 

[powerbook911]

Currently yes.

No one knows if a iOS software update can use both cameras at the same time to improve image quality.

Thanks, yeah I was somewhat surprised that the use of the second camera was so limited. That would be an exciting update if they could someday.

 

[TechnicallyTee]

So we're all photographers now? You guys wouldn't have noticed a thing if nobody said anything. I'm sure the camera will perform just fine and 9 times out of 10 you will be just using the standard camera anyways

 

[Benz63amg]

So we're all photographers now? You guys wouldn't have noticed a thing if nobody said anything. I'm sure the camera will perform just fine and 9 times out of 10 you will be just using the standard camera anyways

Agreed, The camera in the iPhone 7 Plus is going to be incredible there's no doubt about it.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Canon's first image stabilized lens was the 75-300, released in 1995. Is that what you mean by "relatively recent "?

Even if that were true, the iPhone 7's "long lens" is only 56mm (equivalent), which isn't even a telephoto, it's a "normal" field of view.

If anything, putting OIS on a wide angle lens can be considered the 'gimmick'.

Yes, in 2004. In 2016 we use image stabilized lenses, and crank up the ISO to numbers not possible ten years ago.

1) 1995 is relatively recent. How old are you?

2) I understand focal lengths. I also can see with my eyes that the OIS system adds size to the camera. Adding two would take up more space.

3) Leaning on ISO and OIS doesn't replace a tripod, which is still the best way to eliminate camera shake, even on little tiny cameras in phones.
[doublepost=1473620632][/doublepost]

So we're all photographers now? You guys wouldn't have noticed a thing if nobody said anything. I'm sure the camera will perform just fine and 9 times out of 10 you will be just using the standard camera anyways

I actually am a photographer, but yeah. Good point.

 

[M. Gustave]

1) 1995 is relatively recent. How old are you?

How is my age relevant? 21 years ago (1995) is not 'recent' when discussing technology.

2) I understand focal lengths. I also can see with my eyes that the OIS system adds size to the camera. Adding two would take up more space.

You're changing the subject.

3) Leaning on ISO and OIS doesn't replace a tripod, which is still the best way to eliminate camera shake, even on little tiny cameras in phones.

The "best way" for who? For shooting what? At what time of day? I'm supposed to setup a tripod on the sidewalk in midtown Manhattan? Give me a break.

 

[donkeykong88]

I actually am a photographer, but yeah. Good point.

You might be a photographer, but you sure suck at understanding the technology behind photography. In fact, you're so wrong that I registered an account just to tell you this

Contrary to what you posted earlier, optical image stabilization is useful for all focal lengths, but especially useful for telephoto focal lengths as that's where OIS is needed more, both for stabilizing the viewfinder (not an issue in cellphones, but a huge issue in DSLRs, binoculars, telescopes, etc.), as well as reducing the minimum shutter speed necessary for a blur free image. The there's a direct relationship between minimum shutter speed and focal length; the longer the focal length the shorter the shutter, hence the greater need for OIS in telephoto lenses vs wide angle lenses.

In fact, when Canon created IS back in 1995, the first lens they used it in was a 75-300mm telephoto zoom. Afterwards, they integrated it into their telephoto prime and zoom lineup before putting it in normal or wideangle focal lengths. The 70-200mm f/2.8 telephoto zoom is the 'base' lens for Canon's IS system, they usually innovate and develop new generation IS systems in that lens first, before it spreads to the rest of their lens lineup.
[doublepost=1473640960][/doublepost]

If you're aware of the history of OIS on DSLR lenses and cameras you'll know that it only got added to telephotos in the relatively recent past. The conventional wisdom on OIS is that it becomes less effective the longer the focal length. In fact, OIS on long lenses is considered a marketing gimmick by a lot of photographers. "It has OIS! I mean. It won't actually do anything on a lens that long, but it has it!"

I can assure you that OIS in 'long lenses' is most certainly not considered a marketing gimmick by most photographers. I don't know your level of experience, but the OIS in my 400mm f/2.8 most certainly does something (up to 4 stops!), and it's something I, along with almost every other amateur and professional photographer out there, relies on, on a daily basis.
[doublepost=1473641230][/doublepost]

3) Leaning on ISO and OIS doesn't replace a tripod, which is still the best way to eliminate camera shake, even on little tiny cameras in phones.

Ever tried to use a tripod (or monopod) on a boat, helicopter or other moving surface? Yes, tripods are great, but it doesn't solve the problem all the time. Once again which is why OIS (and bumping up the ISO as M. Gustave mentioned) is so valuable.

 

[Macshroomer]

OIS doesn't un-blur photos. It compensates somewhat for the movement of your hands. When shooting through a telephoto lens the movement of your hands is exaggerated in the image. In order to achieve effective optical stabilization in a telephoto lens you need more physical travel in the OIS system. You also get diminishing returns the longer the lens gets because it simply can't overcome hand/camera movement at those focal lengths.

So it makes sense that the telephoto wouldn't have it. It would take up more room and provide marginal performance improvement.

This is utter misinformation.

I have three lenses that have OIS ( VR in Nikon terms ) and they all work phenomenally well. I have in Nikon ( One of 4 major systems I use for my full time job of 30 years, not hobby ) a 24-120mm F4 VR, 70-200mm 2.8 VRII and the new 200-500mm F5.6 VR. With amazing consistency, I am able to *handhold* the 200-500 5.6 VR @ 500mm at 1/80th of a second and can even get away with 1/40th if a brace against a wall or like object.

Read that again.....1/80th of a second handheld at 500mm.

OIS is a phenomenal tool, the only thing that is perhaps better is my Kenyon KS6 Gyro that I use for aerial work, a piece of gear that allows me to shoot my film based Hasselblad 500 ELX for black and white fine art in the Winter from a small plane.

If the 56mm 2.8 lens / camera on the 7+ does not have OIS, I will be fine. And it might not have it because the lens has to be further away from the sensor in order to form an image compared to the wider 28mm 1.8 camera, so it might not have had the room in terms of thickness.

 

[Surf Monkey]

This is utter misinformation.

I have three lenses that have OIS ( VR in Nikon terms ) and they all work phenomenally well. I have in Nikon ( One of 4 major systems I use for my full time job of 30 years, not hobby ) a 24-120mm F4 VR, 70-200mm 2.8 VRII and the new 200-500mm F5.6 VR. With amazing consistency, I am able to *handhold* the 200-500 5.6 VR @ 500mm at 1/80th of a second and can even get away with 1/40th if a brace against a wall or like object.

Read that again.....1/80th of a second handheld at 500mm.

OIS is a phenomenal tool, the only thing that is perhaps better is my Kenyon KS6 Gyro that I use for aerial work, a piece of gear that allows me to shoot my film based Hasselblad 500 ELX for black and white fine art in the Winter from a small plane.

If the 56mm 2.8 lens / camera on the 7+ does not have OIS, I will be fine. And it might not have it because the lens has to be further away from the sensor in order to form an image compared to the wider 28mm 1.8 camera, so it might not have had the room in terms of thickness.

Okay, Mr. Expert. Whatever you say. I'm sure you never use a tripod. Yippee!
[doublepost=1473653276][/doublepost]

You might be a photographer, but you sure suck at understanding the technology behind photography. In fact, you're so wrong that I registered an account just to tell you this

Contrary to what you posted earlier, optical image stabilization is useful for all focal lengths, but especially useful for telephoto focal lengths as that's where OIS is needed more, both for stabilizing the viewfinder (not an issue in cellphones, but a huge issue in DSLRs, binoculars, telescopes, etc.), as well as reducing the minimum shutter speed necessary for a blur free image. The there's a direct relationship between minimum shutter speed and focal length; the longer the focal length the shorter the shutter, hence the greater need for OIS in telephoto lenses vs wide angle lenses.

In fact, when Canon created IS back in 1995, the first lens they used it in was a 75-300mm telephoto zoom. Afterwards, they integrated it into their telephoto prime and zoom lineup before putting it in normal or wideangle focal lengths. The 70-200mm f/2.8 telephoto zoom is the 'base' lens for Canon's IS system, they usually innovate and develop new generation IS systems in that lens first, before it spreads to the rest of their lens lineup.
[doublepost=1473640960][/doublepost]

I can assure you that OIS in 'long lenses' is most certainly not considered a marketing gimmick by most photographers. I don't know your level of experience, but the OIS in my 400mm f/2.8 most certainly does something (up to 4 stops!), and it's something I, along with almost every other amateur and professional photographer out there, relies on, on a daily basis.
[doublepost=1473641230][/doublepost]

Ever tried to use a tripod (or monopod) on a boat, helicopter or other moving surface? Yes, tripods are great, but it doesn't solve the problem all the time. Once again which is why OIS (and bumping up the ISO as M. Gustave mentioned) is so valuable.

Kind of amazing that someone would get so worked up about some pretty neutral and general comments. It's particularly fascinating how opinionated and easily offended photogs are, not to mention the tendency to believe that they and they alone really understand while everyone else is an idiot. This is really nothing new. Go to any photography forum site. Fight, fight, fight.

 

[Macshroomer]

Okay, Mr. Expert. Whatever you say. I'm sure you never use a tripod. Yippee!

LOL, don't be silly, of course I use tripods:

 

[donkeykong88]

Kind of amazing that someone would get so worked up about some pretty neutral and general comments. It's particularly fascinating how opinionated and easily offended photogs are, not to mention the tendency to believe that they and they alone really understand while everyone else is an idiot. This is really nothing new. Go to any photography forum site. Fight, fight, fight.

"Neutral and general comments"? I think you see a slew of people posting because you're wrong and everyone is correcting your untrue statements. As a rule of thumb, I generally don't post on forums, but your "neutral and general comments" were so egregiously untrue, I felt the need to post so consider yourself special

Speaking of any photography site, trying posting what you posted earlier in this thread at DPreview, FM Forums, Sports Shooter, Nikonians, etc., and see how quickly you get laughed out of there
[doublepost=1473654890][/doublepost]

LOL, don't be silly, of course I use tripods:

I don't know how you landscape/nature guys schlep all that gear to ridiculous places, this is why I stick with sports

 

[Macshroomer]

I don't know how you landscape/nature guys schlep all that gear to ridiculous places, this is why I stick with sports

Aah, its not that bad, iPhone 6 is only 143 grams, Chamonix 45N2 is 1,550....;-)

 

[Nozuka]

I hope this camera thing doesn't get out of hand...

"What you only got 2 cameras? My phone has 4!"

"Mine has 6, your phone is so outdated!"

 

[jaymc]

The point of image stabilization is for telephoto use. Wth?
https://www.dpreview.com/news/54587...-only-offers-stabilization-in-wide-anlge-lens