All 3rd party apps. do for the Treo is make it crash, crash, crash. This is the precise reason that Apple is keeping invasive 3rd party development OFF of the iPhone. I'll take the reliability.
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iPhone vs TREO
- Thread starter BigPrince
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Yeah, well they didn't own my three. And not a single software update in the two years I owned them.
I've got a Treo 680. Lets start with battery life. With the OEM 1300mah battery in the Treo, I unplugged both yesterday morning. Since then, my iPhone has 6hrs 0 min of useage with 1 day 16hrs of standby including 2 hrs 5mins of calls and some surfing and checking the weather and some google mapping, a music video or two, about an hour of iPod useage, and some email. It has about 40% battery. Now the Treo, no calls (forwarded to iPhone), no web surfing, did do a bit of email deletion (work phone with Exchange) and calender checking...had to plug it in when I got home tonight as it was shutting down.
Obviously with the 2800mah battery it does substantially better, but it's nearly twice as thick which is 3 times as thick as the iPhone and randomly reboots itself 2 to 4 times per day. Yep, there are thousands more apps for the phone, but if you use them, kiss that battery goodbye. Because of all the apps that come standard, which half are worthless and not deleteable, it takes 9 down taps to get to the music player or three taps of the home key to get to multimedia plus two taps to scroll over to plus a select tap plus a play tap, 7 taps minimum. 3 taps max, 2 minimum on iPhone. I am already a faster typer on the iPhone and it corrects 90% of my mistakes. Error correction on the Treo, I've never stumbled across it. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a Treo hater, before June 19th it was the best phone I'd had, it is very functional and because of Exchange I can't give it up, but it sure as hell ain't an iPhone. When necessary, I can log into my OWA account with the iPhone and keep track of my corporate male and I carry a paper copy of my calender every day anyway. Two minor annoyances that will be short lived. Corporate users will force iPhone down our IT departments throats for support in short order.
Obviously with the 2800mah battery it does substantially better, but it's nearly twice as thick which is 3 times as thick as the iPhone and randomly reboots itself 2 to 4 times per day. Yep, there are thousands more apps for the phone, but if you use them, kiss that battery goodbye. Because of all the apps that come standard, which half are worthless and not deleteable, it takes 9 down taps to get to the music player or three taps of the home key to get to multimedia plus two taps to scroll over to plus a select tap plus a play tap, 7 taps minimum. 3 taps max, 2 minimum on iPhone. I am already a faster typer on the iPhone and it corrects 90% of my mistakes. Error correction on the Treo, I've never stumbled across it. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a Treo hater, before June 19th it was the best phone I'd had, it is very functional and because of Exchange I can't give it up, but it sure as hell ain't an iPhone. When necessary, I can log into my OWA account with the iPhone and keep track of my corporate male and I carry a paper copy of my calender every day anyway. Two minor annoyances that will be short lived. Corporate users will force iPhone down our IT departments throats for support in short order.i call that "excuse", you are asserting reliability and 3rd party apps being absolute "one, or the other". which is laughable.
ps, iSafari already crashed without 3rd party apps.
I had a treo 700w on verizon the phone crashed about 5 times a week and had to pull the battery to get it to reset. I sold it and got a treo 700p which works much better crashes only maybe 3 times a month but the phone service sucks. The iphone has service every where the treo doesn't. I also have a samsung i730 which has phone service better than every other phone I have but crashes 2 to 3 times a day and the battery life is so bad it comes with 2 batteries so you can make it through a hole day. My iphone has yet to crash.
It may not be absolutely binary, but I'll wager you a years salary that the iPhone (in any of it's primary applications) is already more stable than any Treo period, with or without 3rd party apps. Apple has high standards and a brand to protect. They have a legacy of reliability and stability. If they have to lock out rogue developers to keep it that way, it's fine with me. The phone already does 85% of what I need it to and it's only been out for 2 weeks.
I think Apple understands it needs to keep tight reigns on the phone for awhile. 3rd party development needs to be very tightly controlled. Developers need to be carefully qualified. It's obvious they (Apple) saw no near term way to manage that with great risk of damaging the integrity of the new product.
Enjoy your Treo.
lol, no need to make empty promises, you just need to read the post by OrleansMac above, and this
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/327113/
money please.
You shouldn't treat my (and others) opinions as attacks on iPhone, rather, these opinions are clearly beneficial for apple to improve their product in the near future.
Your idea of "apple must make their products close to ensure security/reliability" is waay too last century. Take a look at so many OOS products, they are usually more secure, not less, and they are very stable. Apache, Gecko, Linux, etc, etc.
lol, no need to make empty promises, you just need to read the post by OrleansMac above, and this
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/327113/
money please.
You shouldn't treat my (and others) opinions as attacks on iPhone, rather, these opinions are clearly beneficial for apple to improve their product in the near future.
Your idea of "apple must make their products close to ensure security/reliability" is waay too last century. Take a look at so many OOS products, they are usually more secure, not less, and they are very stable. Apache, Gecko, Linux, etc, etc.
I honestly don't view your opinion as an attack on the phone. I just don't agree with you. Nor do I believe that your opinion of closed loop quality management/software development is correct. You can call it what you want, but in this case, Apple chose to close the loop and I think it was a great call. When you enter a new market with the risk they've taken, you close the loop. The partnership with ATT was more than enough risk (and they would have closed this too if there had been an efficient way to do it).
None of the technologies you mention got stable without years of collaborative effort. It came slowly and painfully at times. I really appreciate Apple's launch of the iPhone. It's beautifully executed and amazingly stable for a new product. This would be seriously at risk if development was opened at this time.
We can agree to disagree. And I think my money is safe.
You know, my Treo may do all sorts of wonderful things that the iPhone doesn't, but here's the key: I'd have no idea how to figure out how to do them.
The interface on this thing is so bad that I have never even considered trying to use the Internet or e-mail. And that's what I got it for.
Try using the screen (especially the outer edges) without a stylus. It's almost impossible to use this thing without a stylus.
That said I'm getting an iPhone because I feel like I can actually use it and make use of its features.
I need Internet, a calendar, contacts, an easy-to-use phone and e-mail. The iPod is just a bonus.
I paid $299.00 for this thing with a $100.00 coupon.
Complete waste - at least for me. At least the battery life is good.
The interface on this thing is so bad that I have never even considered trying to use the Internet or e-mail. And that's what I got it for.
Try using the screen (especially the outer edges) without a stylus. It's almost impossible to use this thing without a stylus.
That said I'm getting an iPhone because I feel like I can actually use it and make use of its features.
I need Internet, a calendar, contacts, an easy-to-use phone and e-mail. The iPod is just a bonus.
I paid $299.00 for this thing with a $100.00 coupon.
Complete waste - at least for me. At least the battery life is good.
It was really fun to spend hours searching for, downloading, warezing, and even buying software for Palm OS to do every little thing and figuring out how I could use it all in my daily life and cram more purpose into my Treo smartphone... and it was fun to install all of the little PalmOS hacks like to change the interface and fonts and system organization, and to download all the games, and try to figure out how to best use the really crappily-integrated media apps like for music and photos and video (vlc!), and to try to remind myself to use all of the 150 palm apps that I had installed for everything from calculating BMI to balancing my checkbook to looking up drink recipes to a mirror to a calorie-counting database to a first aid application.
Except now I can use the internet to do all of that and I don't need a Treo, and I don't have to spend that time fussing with iSync and the HotSync Manager and downloading/decompressing/adding/syncing .PRC files and categorizing them and all that jazz. Plus it's all so much more beautiful, faster, more visual, and of course more up-to-date via Safari and websites.
So I guess I don't miss the Treo/Palmphone lifestyle THAT much, but I could go back if forced.
Except now I can use the internet to do all of that and I don't need a Treo, and I don't have to spend that time fussing with iSync and the HotSync Manager and downloading/decompressing/adding/syncing .PRC files and categorizing them and all that jazz. Plus it's all so much more beautiful, faster, more visual, and of course more up-to-date via Safari and websites.
So I guess I don't miss the Treo/Palmphone lifestyle THAT much, but I could go back if forced.
What model Treo do you have? And what version FW were you running?
I am pretty sure the last updates for the 650 came out at the beginning of last year. I can't speak to the 700, 755, or 680 though.
Let's talk ergonomics...
After all, where iPhone is unmatched is the interface, and the interface if designed correctly goes a LONG way in terms of productivity and user satisfaction.
If I were to use a physical keypad, and come across, say, a webform where one field is a phone number, without an extended keyboard... If I wanted to use a 10-digit keypad I'd have to hit whatever function key it is to switch modes on the fixed keyboard and then still deal with trying to use tiny keys on a 10-digit keypad, none of which are "intelligent" in the sense that if I fatfinger two of them, two numbers will type.
On iPhone, however, if I run into a field for a phone # on a webform, if the format of the field is properly coded by the webmaster, the iPhone's virtual keyboard changes into a 10-digit keypad with larger keys rather than "locking" out the smaller keys.
Furthermore, fatfingering on the iPhone only registers the last key you release... so you have a means of correcting yourself if the autocorrect doesn't pick up the mistake (which is rare except in the case of proper names and phone #'s).
THEN there's contextual ergonomics...
If you're in phone mode dialing a number manually (aside from scrolling through the ridiculously easily navigable contacts menu complete with "sticky" letter tabs that stay on screen til you scroll to the next letter in the alphabet, and speed-tabbing)...
In the dialpad mode the keys work differently... If your fingers slip, it wont register multiple keys. It will only register the first number you press. If you press a number, and then slide your finger over it won't register the last number you release. This suggests they had some focus testing that found that people consciously or unconsciously interact with phone dialpads a bit differently than keyboards. Very clever.
Apple tends to do this very well though... instead of approaching the problem of input with "Hey, everyone else uses a tiny physical keyboard, we need one too..." they go back a step to understand how people interact with things, and then build a better input device that conforms intuitively to the user.
Tiny physical keyboards were not arrived at this way... In fact, they came about as a path of least innovation possible. We had larger keyboards in that format, so someone shrunk it without addressing the flaws. Wow, such a big leap of imagination...
Apple on the other hand configured an input device that borrows behaviors from the real world and then conforms the design factors to suit the behaviors intelligently.
Take for example the scroll momentum from flicking... Without realizing it, your brain is so naturally attuned to figuring out dynamics with real world physics and real world interaction that pretty quickly you will figure out how much force and speed you need to apply to a "flick" to reach a particular place on a list of a given length (given length indicated typically by the size of the scroll bar on the side)... You're getting multiple levels of feedback instead of one, and your brain begins processing them before you're consciously aware of it.
Pure genius in industrial design.
There are numerous other examples of design elements Apple put into the way the UI behaves in the iPhone that make it more like touching and moving objects in the real world, something your brain already knows how to do from youth. Learning to operate a Treo is, by comparison, something that requires effort to dumb down your senses just to conform your mindset to goony ergonomics.
After all, where iPhone is unmatched is the interface, and the interface if designed correctly goes a LONG way in terms of productivity and user satisfaction.
If I were to use a physical keypad, and come across, say, a webform where one field is a phone number, without an extended keyboard... If I wanted to use a 10-digit keypad I'd have to hit whatever function key it is to switch modes on the fixed keyboard and then still deal with trying to use tiny keys on a 10-digit keypad, none of which are "intelligent" in the sense that if I fatfinger two of them, two numbers will type.
On iPhone, however, if I run into a field for a phone # on a webform, if the format of the field is properly coded by the webmaster, the iPhone's virtual keyboard changes into a 10-digit keypad with larger keys rather than "locking" out the smaller keys.
Furthermore, fatfingering on the iPhone only registers the last key you release... so you have a means of correcting yourself if the autocorrect doesn't pick up the mistake (which is rare except in the case of proper names and phone #'s).
THEN there's contextual ergonomics...
If you're in phone mode dialing a number manually (aside from scrolling through the ridiculously easily navigable contacts menu complete with "sticky" letter tabs that stay on screen til you scroll to the next letter in the alphabet, and speed-tabbing)...
In the dialpad mode the keys work differently... If your fingers slip, it wont register multiple keys. It will only register the first number you press. If you press a number, and then slide your finger over it won't register the last number you release. This suggests they had some focus testing that found that people consciously or unconsciously interact with phone dialpads a bit differently than keyboards. Very clever.
Apple tends to do this very well though... instead of approaching the problem of input with "Hey, everyone else uses a tiny physical keyboard, we need one too..." they go back a step to understand how people interact with things, and then build a better input device that conforms intuitively to the user.
Tiny physical keyboards were not arrived at this way... In fact, they came about as a path of least innovation possible. We had larger keyboards in that format, so someone shrunk it without addressing the flaws. Wow, such a big leap of imagination...
Apple on the other hand configured an input device that borrows behaviors from the real world and then conforms the design factors to suit the behaviors intelligently.
Take for example the scroll momentum from flicking... Without realizing it, your brain is so naturally attuned to figuring out dynamics with real world physics and real world interaction that pretty quickly you will figure out how much force and speed you need to apply to a "flick" to reach a particular place on a list of a given length (given length indicated typically by the size of the scroll bar on the side)... You're getting multiple levels of feedback instead of one, and your brain begins processing them before you're consciously aware of it.
Pure genius in industrial design.
There are numerous other examples of design elements Apple put into the way the UI behaves in the iPhone that make it more like touching and moving objects in the real world, something your brain already knows how to do from youth. Learning to operate a Treo is, by comparison, something that requires effort to dumb down your senses just to conform your mindset to goony ergonomics.
Sure, when you ask less from it, I absolutely understand your satisfaction. Its a problem of targeted user base, congratulations, You are covered. right now, at where you live, of course.
I wonder what exactly do you call the crash of iSafari and the root level operation of the pre-installed apps. There is nothing secure or reliable about that?
Chances are they would call that a non issue. Running at root is no big deal. I mean your not running as root right now??
I have a Treo 700wx on verizon and I also bought the iPhone and I like them both. I get the best of both worlds and love it.
Browsing on the iPhone is so much better than browsing on the Treo. Hell I might even disable the data on the Treo and save my self 44.95 a month and nearly wash the cost of the iPhones plan LOL
So does Palm. In fact, Palm succeeded overwhelmingly where Apple failed miserably. They created the Smartphone industry. The iPhone is the second attempt to compete with Palm and it has a long way to go to match the functionality of a Palm, regardless of eye-candy.
What a joke. Hey I've used all the Apple systems and MANY were far from reliable or stable. OSX is much better compared to System 6 & 7 which were a crashfest, but it still doesn't take much to crash it either.
Your term "rogue" is completely stupid, insulting to developers and totally out of phase with the real world. As if Apple employees are the only ones capable of stringing code. If anything, being sheltered, they create less stable code. iTunes is a glaring example of this, as is Safari.
Hmm... Palm is hardly on the level of Apple seriously. I think that only Safari has crashed on my iPhone like 1 time during the past weeks but my Treo has locked up completely 2-3 times during the past 2 years I had it.
Statistically your iPhone is sucking! Your iPhone crashed 1 time in 2 weeks while your Treo did 2-3 times over 2 years? And you dare to make a comparison!
I am not defending Palm by any means, I have my list of problems with them as well. But the iPhone has a ways to go to replace my Palm despite how much I want to punch Ed Cooligan's lights out. I take my PDAs seriously.
Statistically your iPhone is sucking! Your iPhone crashed 1 time in 2 weeks while your Treo did 2-3 times over 2 years? And you dare to make a comparison!
I am not defending Palm by any means, I have my list of problems with them as well. But the iPhone has a ways to go to replace my Palm despite how much I want to punch Ed Cooligan's lights out. I take my PDAs seriously.
There's crashing then there's crashing...quitting safari isn't the same thing as a Treo locking up completely.
Read lots of threads about people having to reset their iPhones at least once if not several times. It's the same amount of annoyance as resetting a Palm.
Yeah, but at least the iPhone freezes typically when you try to do too much with it. I've had it only freeze when I've had 20+ tabs in safari open, a picture being e-mailed, ipod playing, showing someone the photos flipping while i turned the phone, and had wifi on so it kept asking me to join networks.
My treo would restart itself sometimes when I was getting a call and I tried to answer it. (at least 3-4 times a month).
And after I installed a 3rd party application like VeriChat or Documents to Go, it would restart at least once a day. And that's only one application running.
You're comparing apples to oranges.