Is Apple dying without Steve

[KnightWRX]

30$ yearly for OS upgrades, much shorter support terms, security updates for older OSes not released.

No seriously, arguing Macs are cheaper because you bought cheap apps ? There's tons of cheap/free Windows software as well, Microsoft offers longer terms for support and security updates, and it already comes with plenty of free maintenance tools.

Neither is cheaper. A Mac or a PC, configured to about the same specs, cost about the same in the end and over the life of the machine.

 

[nuckinfutz]

30$ yearly for OS upgrades, much shorter support terms, security updates for older OSes not released.

No seriously, arguing Macs are cheaper because you bought cheap apps ? There's tons of cheap/free Windows software as well, Microsoft offers longer terms for support and security updates, and it already comes with plenty of free maintenance tools.

Neither is cheaper. A Mac or a PC, configured to about the same specs, cost about the same in the end and over the life of the machine.

Game
Set
Match

http://www.macvspc.info/pages/03.html

 

[belvdr]

Nope

Software is cheaper on Macs. I just bought 10+ quality apps for about a $1.50 each. Lion is $30 ...there is no Windows 7 upgrade that cheap.

The OS comes with the device. Why is there an upgrade cost for a new device?

Mac cost less in maintenance as well. No anti-virus needed, no crapware installed that ask for money.

How is there any cost involved in these actions?

Macs are definitely cheaper and more reliable over the long run which is why Apple has taken back share and dominates the high ASP market.

I do not see how they are cheaper, especially since you haven't proven there any additional costs for a new Windows 7 machine over its life. Can you elaborate further?

ASP = Application Service Provider? Not sure what you mean there.

Those with limited budgets would do better to invest in a more stable platform even if it cost more up front.

Windows 7 is perfectly stable. In my opinion, the Mac costs more over the life of the device.

Game
Set
Match

http://www.macvspc.info/pages/03.html

You're seriously quoting an article that references NT Server 4 and the now discontinued Xserve?

 

[nuckinfutz]

The OS comes with the device. Why is there an upgrade cost for a new device?

How is there any cost involved in these actions?

I do not see how they are cheaper, especially since you haven't proven there any additional costs for a new Windows 7 machine over its life. Can you elaborate further?

ASP = Application Service Provider? Not sure what you mean there.

Windows 7 is perfectly stable. In my opinion, the Mac costs more over the life of the device.

Your opinion would be wrong. Macs have always had good ROI. Even when the OS was $129 it was cheaper than the comparable Windows upgrade and now that chasm has grown even larger.

ASP = Average Selling Price

 

[belvdr]

Your opinion would be wrong. Macs have always had good ROI. Even when the OS was $129 it was cheaper than the comparable Windows upgrade and now that chasm has grown even larger.

ASP = Average Selling Price

You can say my opinion is wrong, but prove it then. AV has no cost and there are no OS upgrade costs. What's left?

So back in MacOS 8/9, there was good ROI? That's a stretch.

How can there be a high average selling price? An average is just that: an average.

 

[G51989]

Nope

Yep

Software is cheaper on Macs. I just bought 10+ quality apps for about a $1.50 each. Lion is $30 ...there is no Windows 7 upgrade that cheap.

No it's not. Real software costs money on either platform.

Windows 7 comes with almost every windows computer, no extra charge, its built into the price. It will not need upgraded throughout the life of the machine. Remember those Windows XP Service Pack 1, 2 and 3? Think of them like the 30 dollar OSX updates. Expect Free.

Way more software as well, a solid 80% of the worlds software is made for Windows.

Oh yeah, Microsoft supports their OS's for 10 years+. Apple doesn't.

Mac cost less in maintenance as well. No anti-virus needed, no crapware installed that ask for money.

I use the built in Windows Firewall, and a free Ad-Aware scanner. I've never had problems. With ANY of my Windows machines.

Macs are definitely cheaper and more reliable over the long run which is why Apple has taken back share and dominates the high ASP market.

Cheaper = No. They cost far more up front.

More Reliable? = No. Your drinking Apples advertising Cool Aid.

Apple has failed to break 10%, they're been trying for a decade. And have failed at it. To expensive, not a ton of software, and Apple does NOT support their customers or software very long.

Those with limited budgets would do better to invest in a more stable platform even if it cost more up front.

Invest in a machine with less Expandability? Poorer hardware performance per dollar? And in a Machine that Apple will drop support for in a Few years?

If I was on a budget. I'd take the PC. I know I can expand it easily, I know Microsoft will keep support my OS for a decade. And I know there will be tons of software.

 

[nuckinfutz]

You can say my opinion is wrong, but prove it then. AV has no cost and there are no OS upgrade costs. What's left?

So back in MacOS 8/9, there was good ROI? That's a stretch.

How can there be a high average selling price? An average is just that: an average.

Checkmate

http://allthingsd.com/20090723/wonder-if-this-has-something-to-do-with-those-laptop-hunter-ads/

Apple commands a dominating portion of computer sales above $1000. There's a reason why people with money to spend do not spend it on PC. They realize Windows is crap.

Poor folks should realize the same and dump that PC that will be dead in a couple of years for a Mac.

----------

If I was on a budget. I'd take the PC. I know I can expand it easily, I know Microsoft will keep support my OS for a decade. And I know there will be tons of software.

And you would be foolish. If money is tight buying a PC is a mistake.

 

[belvdr]

Checkmate

http://allthingsd.com/20090723/wonder-if-this-has-something-to-do-with-those-laptop-hunter-ads/

Apple commands a dominating portion of computer sales above $1000. There's a reason why people with money to spend do not spend it on PC. They realize Windows is crap.

First you reference an article regarding NT Server 4 and Xserves and now you reference an article that doesn't even deal with ROI. Relating wealth to a computer purchase is stretching it. I'm sure you have no facts to back that up.

Stop trying to Google yourself out of the hole you put yourself in. Adding "checkmate" doesn't make you right either, no more than "Game Set Match".

Why can't you just answer questions instead of dancing around the subject proclaiming yourself to be correct? It must be because you don't a have a leg to stand on, so you must keep moving.

Poor folks should realize the same and dump that PC that will be dead in a couple of years for a Mac.

And you would be foolish. If money is tight buying a PC is a mistake.

I know you won't answer the question, but I'll ask anyway. Why will the PC be dead in a couple of years? They last just as long as a Mac.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Why can't you just answer questions instead of dancing around the subject proclaiming yourself to be correct?

I know you won't answer the question, but I'll ask anyway. Why will the PC be dead in a couple of years? They last just as long as a Mac.

Malware is the typical culprit. Despite some of your claims that virus protection doesn't cost much it in fact costs dearly. I've had more than a few close friends pay a Tech almost $200 to clean up their PC.

I gave a friend a old eMac computer. She had 3 kids and they where constantly destroying her PCs within a couple of year.

Yes...some of you that know your way around a PC don't have this issue but your not the average user either.

Apple claims that 50% of new Mac users are coming over from Windows. That should tell you that confidence in Microsoft is at an all time low.

 

[G51989]

And you would be foolish. If money is tight buying a PC is a mistake.

No.

Tell that to the 8 year old Sempron 3100+ Custom PC I'm typing this on. I use it all the time to play legacy games. Its also my media center.

8 years old now, lets run through the specs.

Sempron 3100+
2GB DDR400 RAM
350Watt Antech Power Supply
250GB Maxtor HDD, 7200RPM.
Dual DVD Burners
Hooked up to an 8 year old Acer 19 Monitor.
Windows XP Pro SP3.
Geforce 6800GT

This thing is EIGHT YEARS OLD. Was built for myself by myself for about 650 dollars. Guess how much money I've put into it since it was new?

0 Dollars.

SP1, SP2, and SP3 were all free upgrades from Microsoft, I run the XP firewall and ad-aware. Both free. Never had a virus, or crashing. Or any problems.

Tell this eight year old PC, that has performed flawlessly. For eight years, that PC's are expensive and don't last.

Because that is a claim with zero evidence to back it up. Hell, even at 8 years old, I'm watching netflix, while typing this, and syncing my Zune. And its fine.

 

[belvdr]

Malware is the typical culprit. Despite some of your claims that virus protection doesn't cost much it in fact costs dearly. I've had more than a few close friends pay a Tech almost $200 to clean up their PC.

If anyone is paying a tech $200 to clean a PC, then that's their fault. Still, that doesn't make the PC dead.

I gave a friend a old eMac computer. She had 3 kids and they where constantly destroying her PCs within a couple of year.

Yes...some of you that know your way around a PC don't have this issue but your not the average user either.

I'd say my in-laws are less-than-average computer users, especially since I need to walk them through importing photos from their camera. When they go their new Dell in 2003 running WinXP, they installed AVG and SpyBot Search-and-Destroy. They've never had an issue and never reinstalled Windows either. It's a daily use machine.

Granted, after 9 years, it's seems slow, but any system that age will seem slow.

Apple claims that 50% of new Mac users are coming over from Windows. That should tell you that confidence in Microsoft is at an all time low.

Source?

I don't see the confidence dropping in Microsoft. Specifically, I see confidence rising especially since Windows 7.

 

[G51989]

Malware is the typical culprit. Despite some of your claims that virus protection doesn't cost much it in fact costs dearly. I've had more than a few close friends pay a Tech almost $200 to clean up their PC.

I gave a friend a old eMac computer. She had 3 kids and they where constantly destroying her PCs within a couple of year.

Yes...some of you that know your way around a PC don't have this issue but your not the average user either.

Apple claims that 50% of new Mac users are coming over from Windows. That should tell you that confidence in Microsoft is at an all time low.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8

Yeah, No confident in Windows at all.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Great guys

You build your own computers and maintain them well. That's not the average computer user.

If someone needed a great low cost computer and they had the skills to build it on their own and maintain it well I'd say "build a PC" but reality has it that they'd already know it.

 

[belvdr]

Great guys

You build your own computers and maintain them well. That's not the average computer user.

If someone needed a great low cost computer and they had the skills to build it on their own and maintain it well I'd say "build a PC" but reality has it that they'd already know it.

You don't read very well. I said my in-laws bought a new Dell with WinXP that's lasted them 9 years.

 

[G51989]

Great guys

You build your own computers and maintain them well. That's not the average computer user.

If someone needed a great low cost computer and they had the skills to build it on their own and maintain it well I'd say "build a PC" but reality has it that they'd already know it.

Go buy a 700 dollar Dell with Windows 7 on it, as long as the user is not a total idiot. It will last 5-8 years just fine.

Macs last, but Apple cuts out support very quickly. Macs are not for people on a budget.

Which is fine, Because Windows 7 is just as good as OSX.

 

[nuckinfutz]

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8

Yeah, No confident in Windows at all.

MSFT - Mkt Cap: 244.21B

AAPL - Mkt Cap: 528.61B

Plus when your fancy Windows 7 OS can't even beat a decade old Window XP in marketshare things are pretty bad

http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-xp-market-share-goes-down-in-february-2012

Hahahahaha

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Which is fine, Because Windows 7 is just as good as OSX.

Windows "insert number here" is just as good as a Mac. The common refrain from those in denial.

 

[belvdr]

MSFT - Mkt Cap: 244.21B

AAPL - Mkt Cap: 528.61B

Plus when your fancy Windows 7 OS can't even beat a decade old Window XP in marketshare things are pretty bad

http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-xp-market-share-goes-down-in-february-2012

Hahahahaha

You've running on empty, so you bring in market cap. What does it have to do with ROI again?

The reason WinXP is still holding good market share is because it works great and is stable. If you want updates, Microsoft doesn't force you to upgrade like Apple does. They support the OS for longer. That link proves that people don't have a need to upgrade, so ROI is further enhanced.

 

[nuckinfutz]

You've running on empty, so you bring in market cap. What does it have to do with ROI again?

The reason WinXP is still holding good market share is because it works great and is stable. If you want updates, Microsoft doesn't force you to upgrade like Apple does. They support the OS for longer.

Because few will buy their new stuff which is why their marketcap is in the crapper and they're a slow growth company. If Windows 8 fails Microsoft is done.

Apple has sold 50 million iPads and no one gave a rat's arse about whether it had Microsoft Office on it or not.

The Xbox is the only thing Microsoft has done right. Zune got its arse kicked. The Windows Mobile platform got run over by the iPhone and Android with such ease it was rather amusing.

No one....I repeat... no one is afraid of Microsoft anymore.

 

[belvdr]

Because few will buy their new stuff which is why their marketcap is in the crapper and they're a slow growth company. If Windows 8 fails Microsoft is done.

Which has nothing to do with ROI, which you brought up.

Apple has sold 50 million iPads and no one gave a rat's arse about whether it had Microsoft Office on it or not.

When you focus solely on the consumer, Office is the least of their worries. My problem with tables, in general, is the lack of printing, but I digress.

What's this have to do with the discussion at hand?

The Xbox is the only thing Microsoft has done right. Zune got its arse kicked. The Windows Mobile platform got run over by the iPhone and Android with such ease it was rather amusing

Windows Phone isn't done yet. In fact, I'm curious about it for my next phone. I haven't made a choice yet, other than it won't be the current iPhone.

No one....I repeat... no one is afraid of Microsoft anymore.

Again, what does this have to do with your original argument about the Mac having better ROI? You're dancing around...

 

[G51989]

MSFT - Mkt Cap: 244.21B

AAPL - Mkt Cap: 528.61B

Plus when your fancy Windows 7 OS can't even beat a decade old Window XP in marketshare things are pretty bad

http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-x...-february-2012

Hahahahaha

You clearly don't know what your talking about.

Why do you think Windows XP is number 1? Because it was the most popular OS ever produced. Many business's and departments and IT departments, and home users still use it. Because its still a useful OS, the same cannot be said for a 10 year old Apple OS. Because Apple cut support.

The Corporate and Enterprise Markets are JUST starting the switch to windows 7, and its going very well. Hell, the non production departments at the corporation I work for are just starting to get Windows 7.

Windows "insert number here" is just as good as a Mac. The common refrain from those in denial.

Really? What makes OSX so much better than Windows?

Because few will buy their new stuff which is why their marketcap is in the crapper and they're a slow growth company. If Windows 8 fails Microsoft is done.

Their marketshare grows slow, because they are almost 90% of the market. They've already hit the top. Windows 8 will not fail. Windows 7 didn't fail. Neither did XP. Vista was a ****up, but it was quickly gotten rid of.

Apple has sold 50 million iPads and no one gave a rat's arse about whether it had Microsoft Office on it or not.

Whats your point? iPads are not full on computers. Thats the bread and butter of Microsofts business. Something that no one has managed to touch.

No one....I repeat... no one is afraid of Microsoft anymore.

Do you really think Microsoft is just going to go away? They make an awesome product.

 

[nuckinfutz]

I've got 20 years experience in IT sales. I don't need validation from you.

Mac is the better choice. That's my opinion. I've backed it up with enough proof. If you disagree we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[belvdr]

I've got 20 years experience in IT sales. I don't need validation from you.

Mac is the better choice. That's my opinion. I've backed it up with enough proof. If you disagree we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What proof have you provided? All you've done is stated assumptions.

 

[G51989]

I've got 20 years experience in IT sales. I don't need validation from you.

Mac is the better choice. That's my opinion. I've backed it up with enough proof. If you disagree we'll just have to agree to disagree.

IT Sales? Hmmm.

Mac is the better choice? Maybe for some people. But it isn't for most people. I personally don't like under performing overpriced hardware for my serious machines.

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And nothing personal. IT Sales? Selling to whom exactly?

Its one thing to sell these machines, but its another thing to work with them every single day.

 

[nuckinfutz]

IT Sales? Hmmm.

Mac is the better choice? Maybe for some people. But it isn't for most people. I personally don't like under performing overpriced hardware for my serious machines.

----------

And nothing personal. IT Sales? Selling to whom exactly?

Its one thing to sell these machines, but its another thing to work with them every single day.

Indeed and I do not trivialize your skills.

I've done a bit.

IBM
HP ML/DL/Bladesystem, EVA
Sepaton
Netapp
BlueArc
Quantum

etc. No admin stuff though. I'm the first guy that will tell you that Apple and the Enterprise are like diametrically opposed unless you're talking about selling iPhones and iPads in.

I was positive that they'd have an iSCSI driver in Lion but after selling off the Xserve RAID and then Xserve, Apple confirmed my suspicion that they simply do not care about big hardware.

*********
Hey GS are you still an AMD guy? Or have you gone to building Intel based systems now? I'd say i'm intrigued by AMD. Bulldozer was a snoozer but Piledriver cores may be worth checking out. I miss the old days when AMD was cleaning Intel's clock with the Opteron servers.

 

[thekev]

Game
Set
Match

http://www.macvspc.info/pages/03.html

See linking troll articles doesn't really mean much. They use poor analogies and very broad reasoning.

Your opinion would be wrong. Macs have always had good ROI. Even when the OS was $129 it was cheaper than the comparable Windows upgrade and now that chasm has grown even larger.

ASP = Average Selling Price

Okay once again there's a problem with the logic here. A retail copy of Windows costs more, but how often do you really need to do that? Windows releases quite a lot in service packs. If you bought a computer running Windows 7 today, you'd be fine with that OS for several versions. Older hardware doesn't lose support quite as quickly, because there are just so many machines out there.

Checkmate

http://allthingsd.com/20090723/wonder-if-this-has-something-to-do-with-those-laptop-hunter-ads/

Apple commands a dominating portion of computer sales above $1000. There's a reason why people with money to spend do not spend it on PC. They realize Windows is crap.

Poor folks should realize the same and dump that PC that will be dead in a couple of years for a Mac.

----------



And you would be foolish. If money is tight buying a PC is a mistake.

No... neglecting to do your research is a mistake. Assuming that just by buying a mac, you'll never have another computer problem is a mistake. Ever look at the threads on here where people are freaked out because they switched to a Mac and now have troubles? Both sides have their issues. You just get somewhat used to what is required with either one.

I've got 20 years experience in IT sales. I don't need validation from you.

Mac is the better choice. That's my opinion. I've backed it up with enough proof. If you disagree we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You've backed it up with troll posts that outline what I've stated in the past. You can refine your search much further than this. My problem with seeing this kind of posting is that you make it way too simple. Let's say they want to play games on their computer, and they are switching to a Mac. If those games are unavailable under OSX, you'll need that Windows license anyway, and you now pay full price for it. You can save some by grabbing an oem license off newegg or whatever if you feel comfortable with that. These computers still break, and repairs are expensive, like with any other computer. After a year or two, unless you're offered depot repair, it's easy to get to a point of not worth it. You can add applecare, which is fine. It costs a significant percentage of the price of the machine with certain configurations. I prefer NEC displays to Apple too. It's annoying dealing with their tech support line, but they send out advance replacements within 48 hours before you even send back the old one. In Apple's case, it's often the same thing as other computer companies. If they run into hiccups, repairs can take much longer due to lack of parts. I've had it happen twice.

The point is that you can't turn it into something so simple. If you're on a budget and looking for a reliable machine, do your research on both the machine itself and service reputation of the brand. None of them are perfect, and this includes Apple. I still use them. I just consider the choice to be a foregone conclusion.