Is It Me? Why Does It Seem No One Minds Apple's new Machines Are NOT UPGRADABLE?

[za9ra22]

Apple has been doing this since the Intel days. Before Steve died too.

Since the first Mac in 1984 in fact. Steve wanted it to be an appliance with no user accessible parts inside. I'm not sure this is Apple's thinking and purpose these days, but it does show that the OP's question is a mere 40 years late.

 

[ignatius345]

Now, anyone... If you can successfully convince this thirty-plus-year Apple former fanboy why his next computer should still be an Apple, bless your tiny little heart. Because I've already found three machines made by name brand PC companies that are faster than the M3, come with 16G of RAM 1T or 2T internal SSDs, for less than the iMac M3 and did I say, they've been clocked in as far speedier than the M3?

So what precisely is the point of this little exercise then? I could give a rat's wet ass what computer you're using.

You've signed up here specifically to make about six posts about how much you hate Apple. Move along, go haunt the Dell forums with your tales of ye olden days.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Pardon me for being old, but this goes against everything I understand about computers.

Apparently that isn't very much.

You buy a machine that meets your needs, and you use it, for as long as it continues to meet your needs. It's not complicated, difficult, or otherwise controversial.

Apple doesn't make generic computers. Apple makes products, geared toward solving user problems and serving user needs. They make different products for different users. You buy the one that applies to you. You don't buy the cheapest one you can find today and then upgrade it later when you have more money. That's dinosaur thinking, and not at all interesting.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Apple has been doing this since the Intel days. Before Steve died too.

Apple has been doing it since 1984. They make products that serve a specific user and solve specific problems.

 

[Timpetus]

Enjoy your PCs, I guess.

I understand both approaches to computers, and have a home-built gaming PC desktop alongside my nearly maxed out M1 Max 14" MBP. Don't buy new direct from Apple, and those $200 upgrade prices end up being much more reasonable - I spent about the same on my 14" as we did for my wife's 16" M1 Pro with 1/4 the RAM and half the storage. Just had to wait a couple years and the price at B&H dropped dramatically.

If you just need a computer for basic stuff, Apple's basic specs will be fine. If you need something advanced, buy an upgraded Mac or build your own PC, depending on what you need to do with it.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Why Are There Few Complaints That None Of Apple's Consumer Level Machines Are Upgradable?

Many of us constantly complain about it

I've not bought a new Mac since they moved to this model, and I've been using Apple products since the 1980's

 

[progx]

Apple has been doing it since 1984. They make products that serve a specific user and solve specific problems.

That's true. Don't recall much of it during the PowerPC days.

 

[turbineseaplane]

This is the fallacy.
People simply don’t buy a Mac at all, rather than get miniscule RAM and NAND.
Some buy minimum spec.
Some bite the bullet and upgrade the Mac to the lowest they believe they can make work.
Some don’t buy a Mac at all.

And that last category is rather substantial, and are conveniently ignored in the quote above.

I'm in this category

Back in 2012 I went Hackintosh + 2015 MBP on/off over the years (with self upgraded NVMe stick currently) ... Have recently moved on from Hack and converted my 2016 build hardware to Windows 11 full time with an RTX GPU

The flexibility and longevity I'm getting out of my 2016 Hack build is just awesome

 

[za9ra22]

That's true. Don't recall much of it during the PowerPC days.

The PPC days were rather unique in computing history, specifically for the rate and scale of hardware development, and Apple's leadership at that point knew that the original appliance philosophy couldn't work - the hardware would be out of date before they could finish development let alone sell it. So the (desktop) PPCs were far more modular.

Of course while that made sense, the same leadership shot the company in the foot by complicating product lines and cannibalizing their own sales in an an effort to appeal to a wider market with more cost and performance consciousness. It didn't go well.

 

[za9ra22]

The flexibility and longevity I'm getting out of my 2016 Hack build is just awesome

I'm still using a 1991 Mac Classic II and a 1992 PowerBook 170. I'd tell you about my Performa 630CD as well, b ut I don't remember the year it was made. It's still going nicely though.

Do I win?!

 

[turbineseaplane]

Do I win?!

Ha! I guess?

I mean, I was running Ventura (could have been on Sonoma, just hadn't done it yet) on this hardware though.
I'm guessing that won't work on the machines you'd mentioned

 

[za9ra22]

Ha! I guess?

I mean, I was running Ventura (could have been on Sonoma, just hadn't done it yet) on this hardware though.
I'm guessing that won't work on the machines you'd mentioned

Ah, probably not no! But that said, I don't much like Sonoma or the most recent iteration of macOS, and can get far more practical work done on the earlier versions.

I'd explain why, but neither of us has the time for that!!

Oh, and did I mention my DOS computer?!

 

[skottichan]

This is the wrong attitude. People in massive numbers yield plenty of power. The problem is all of the people who aren’t on the same page. This company is colluding, so we buyers should collude as well. Collude to not buy 8GB RAM base models, collude to not buy 256GB of SSD, and collude to say no if Apple doesn’t make them both upgradable.

People do have power. If Apple can make more money selling more Macs to buyers who want to upgrade they should and would if otherwise everyone colludes to not buy. Just create buyers collusion groups in mass. It is possible but for the weak who rather depart from their money than have desires.

That's the thing, the vast, and I mean VAST majority of users, don't tinker.

Like that's it. Whether you do or not is moot. The consumer has already colluded, and no offense, you were outvoted.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Oh, and did I mention my DOS computer?!

Heading off to edit the autoexec.bat and config.sys files right now!
Gotta' get this game working right!

 

[turbineseaplane]

That's the thing, the vast, and I mean VAST majority of users, don't tinker.

It's not even a "want to tinker" thing for all ... being able to swap in a new/larger SSD is a massive QoL and machine longevity feature to have... even if it goes unused for most people.

Even just for being able to pull a drive out for a backup pr reason, etc

There is really no good reason not to have socketed NVMe in there.
Apple isn't even shipping machines with speeds as fast as are currently possible with existing socketed NVMe tech.

It's all just for forced upgrades at time of purchase.

 

[za9ra22]

It's not even a "want to tinker" thing for all ... being able to swap in a new/larger SSD is a massive QoL and machine longevity feature to have... even if it goes unused for most people.

Even just for being able to pull a drive out for a backup pr reason, etc

There is really no good reason not to have socketed NVMe in there.
Apple isn't even shipping machines with speeds as fast as are currently possible with existing socketed NVMe tech.

It's all just for forced upgrades at time of purchase.

We are in danger of going way off topic, and I apologize for my part in that, but here's the thing: assuming you're right and that there are genuine reasons normal users need to open up their machines and upgrade and replace stuff, don't you think that Apple know that?

Yes, it could be a very cynical policy of theirs to force those users to sell off and replace when that need arises, but it could also be that it actually doesn't arise much at all.

The point you were responding to was that by far, the majority of users don't tinker, and after 40 years (plus) in this business, I know that to be absolutely true, they don't. Sure, we do, but it doesn't mean they do. I find my M1 MBA a bit frustrating at times because it has only 256Gb storage and I have to offload stuff a lot. But a NAS is cheap and reliable, and if I was so minded, the cloud would do anyway. Heck, I could build a NAS out of a $40 Raspberry Pi come to that. And the 8Gb RAM? Never had any issue to suggest that's not enough. My iMac has 16Gb, and I can't tell the difference in capability or performance unless I'm trying to find it... and most people aren't.

The reality is that what most people want and need a computer to do, can be done on hardware that is 10 years or so old. The OS bloats and so does software, but for the vast majority of people, uses really don't so much.

One other point, if it is a cynical policy by Apple to continuously upsell their products, it's a pretty dumb company considering that firstly, they offer trade-ins in a lot of cases from which they can't really benefit, and secondly, the users can offload via eBay or elsewhere as a used Mac, meaning one less customer for Apple at full price or even via the refurb store.

 

[PsykX]

Why Are There Few Complaints That None Of Apple's Consumer Level Machines Are Upgradable?

I think we are already used to non-upgradeable machines like iPhones, iPads, Apple Watch, HomePod, even iMacs... Which eased Apple's change management towards non-upgradeable Macs.

Another thing, Apple Silicon is actually very powerful. When you buy one, you're usually good for quite a few years.

The only things that concern me right now :
- They should absolutely eliminate 8 GB configurations at this point. They should be ashamed of having such configs in 2024.
- They should make the upgrades much more affordable. They're robbing us* at this point.
- They should let us upgrade or add a secondary SSD in some models like the Mac Studio. This is just ridiculous. Luckily Satechi has a great Mac Mini / Mac Studio hub, which I have in front of me, and made me save close to 1000 CAD.


* Upgrading a Mac Studio from 512 GB to 4 TB in Canada costs 1500 CAD versus 500 CAD for a 4 TB Samsung 990 Pro at regular price, which is one of the best and most expensive SSDs you can get.

 

[kildraik]

It's not just Apple, fren. I don't see the point in user expandability outside of hardcore workstations where cost does matter. Macs are good for 5-7 years. SOCs changed the game with memory and power.

Yada yada yada.

My opinion would change only if hardware wasn't effectively EOL'd after five years and the latest operating systems could run on legacy hardware.

Also, magnesium is a fantastic mineral for stress management.

 

[za9ra22]

- They should absolutely eliminate 8 GB configurations at this point. They should be ashamed of having such configs in 2024.

Actually, while your comments are broadly spot on, this one strikes me as maybe the wrong way to approach this. In my opinion what they SHOULD do is ensure the OS, their own software and that via the App Store, doesn't bloat beyond viability in an 8Gb environment. Otherwise in upping the minimum hardware platform, they're going to encourage bloat which very quickly will result in anything lower than the new minimum (presumably 16Gb) grinding to a halt.

8Gb systems really ought to be perfectly viable for daily use, and the longer Apple hold to that minima, the more they are constrained in over bloating. Or slowed, at least.

 

[TechnoMonk]

If you’re bored, read on below the dashed lines, but I’m going to start with the tl;dr - the sole use I would have for an upgradeable system is GPU replacement.

——————

As someone with a Windows desktop PC and a ASi MBPro, I’ll admit that the Windows systems are wasteful for me (the only component to get ”regular” updates is the GPU) and NOISY as all get-out and that I’d pay Apple prices for an Apple experience even with it just being a gaming PC. They are exactly as powerful as I can afford at any given time, though. E.g. I replaced the 3070 with a 4070 last year mainly because I ended up with a 3070 since 3080s were basically impossible to find at any price and when they could be found… *makes choking noises* The fact that the 4070 is equivalent to a 3080, with more RAM, and 2/3 power draw made it a near no-brainer for my 4K gaming rig.

Also, some irony appears for me about all of those who rage against Apple having “pro” computers with 8GB RAM… my work (I.e. the “pro” part) can be done with laughable ease in a base Mac mini. But that’s me: my professional use of a computer can be addressed by base models. It’s my play (that includes photography and its ancillary editing methods on a Mac) that costs me all my money. And then I have to pay extra to have a wind turbine firing off while I game? Thanks…

If the Mac Pro allowed GPU upgrades, it would be on my list (but WTF, I have no need whatsoever for any other element of its capacities) and I am seriously considering the Corsair One systems for my next gaming computer…

Having grown up at a time when a new computer cost about $5k (Canadian; inflation corrected: about $11k) and the average lifespan for a desktop computer was 3 years (for work, not for tinkering or children or those whose needs never scaled, like my uncle who’s still on a powerhouse PC from the turn of the millennium) I am not one of those who belabours spending $5k now for a computer that “just works” for 5-7 years without a hiccup and that I can then sell on or donate to happy recipients who can continue to use it for years (my 2014 iMac 5K is doing just that; I used it happily for 7 years and it’s a school computer for teens at present).

Right now those who spend under $1k for a new build that they tinker with for a decade are choking on their suds and rage… YMWV!

That’s pretty much what I did with my Linux AMD/Nvidia workstation. My RAM, Storage was already maxed out. But it was good to replace the 3090 with 4090. GPU is big part of my workflow. That said I love my 16 MBP M1 Max witb 64 GB unified memory. My workstation is still limited to 24 GB GPU memory, though it has 128 GB RAM. I find the 64 GB unified memory more useful for number of pipelines I run which need more than 24 GB. Best of both worlds, I wouldn’t want EU or some one poke their nose in to affairs that need no regulatory crap.

 

[hajime]

I remember the old good days when we could buy RAM from 3rd party companies and did the upgrade ourselves anytime we liked after purchase.

 

[AlixSPQR]

Why Are There Few Complaints That None Of Apple's Consumer Level Machines Are Upgradable?

Spoiler

So, I just received an email that "I've been warned" that I was going against Apple's community forums and that I would have my "privileges" suspended due to breaking their community standards, lol.

Really...

While asking why Apple Music doesn't shuffle properly, I also mentioned that I won't be buying the new iMac M3 or any of the other new machines because none of them are upgradable. You have to pay $200 per upgrade per step AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE, otherwise, neither the user nor Apple can upgrade them afterward. If you don't believe me, just go through the purchasing process of one of their machines on their site, and read the statement for yourself.

Pardon me for being old, but this goes against everything I understand about computers.

I am amazed that I seldom hear any complaints from anyone that none of the new machines allow for future upgrades, neither by the user nor by Apple once the system is ordered and out the door. Their recommendation is to anticipate all the internal storage, RAM, etc., that you will need and order it as upgrades at the time of purchase. Of course, for a hefty Apple premium of $200 a step. Meaning 256G SSD to 564 will cost $200. Going from 8G RAM to 16 will cost you $200. And on and on. I bought a 2T Samsung external SSD only a few months ago for $100, so this is nuts.

Yet, all I see when it comes to the reviews is people fawning over the many colors the iMacs come in now. Really? When did the thing's decorative compatibility become so much more than what it was meant for? Computing.

Now, anyone... If you can successfully convince this thirty-plus-year Apple former fanboy why his next computer should still be an Apple, bless your tiny little heart. Because I've already found three machines made by name brand PC companies that are faster than the M3, come with 16G of RAM 1T or 2T internal SSDs, for less than the iMac M3 and did I say, they've been clocked in as far speedier than the M3?

I've had it. I don't like being rooked, nor forced into spending money unnecessarily. But it would seem over the past ten years, Apple has increasingly changed its focus from producing machines that just work, to machines that just work only if you're willing to subscribe to more and more iCloud space, Apple Music, or this or that. I want a computer that computes, not turns me into a walking credit card for an already very wealthy company (the second most valuable company in the nation behind Microsoft at the moment). As much as I don't like Windows, having worked on them for decades, I can learn to live with the increased amount of access to computing that I seem to have lost these past few years if need be.

I've objected and complained for many years now, but I've realised it's futile. I'll probably continue to buy an iPhone, but not a Mac, and certainly not an iPad or any other  gadgets. When I can't run macOS on my old Mac mini any longer, or any PC that is (x86 support will eventually be dropped), I'll switch to Linux (most likely Ubuntu). That's just the way it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Apollo68]

Part of it is a genuine performance reason. The transfer speed between SSD and RAM can be faster than if it was on an interface slot such as NVME.

RAM would be much slower if it were over NVME. That said, there are plenty of removable NVME drives. I have 3 of them in my desktop at home.

 

[Regulus67]

deleted...

 

[boss.king]

Plenty of people mind. I disliked this when I got my first work-issued retina MBP over a decade ago, and I still dislike it now. But there comes a point where it's obvious that upgradability is never coming back and no amount of voicing displeasure is going to change that. I still prefer my completely un-upgradable M2 Air over pretty much any other laptop I've ever tried, so I've made my peace with it.