Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Based on what? When the 128K Macintosh launched in 1984, it was priced at $2,495 (around $7,800 in today's dollars) which was a lot more expensive than various other home computers available at the time. Today's far better iMacs can be had starting at just $1,299.

When the original iPhone launched in 2007, it had a starting price of $499 with an AT&T 2-year contract (around $760 in today's dollars) which was a lot more expensive than various other smartphones available at the time with carrier contracts. Today's far better iPhone 16 Plus can be had for just $396 ($10.99/month x 36) through AT&T.
What you have written above is somewhat true, but the cost of living was lower back in those years, and earnings were lower too. Nowadays our earning are much higher, and also our cost of living. But there is something that one should notice as follows:

a. Those who could afford buying an iPhone, or a car, or a house in 2008 weren't as numerous as there are today.

b. Nowadays iPhones are being sold by the thousands, if not millions, because of population increases and wealth around the world, and a great number of consumers buy the iPhone on credit.
 
Last edited:
Would Steve have kept sinking money into the Apple car? Would he have worked with Rivian?

I think the Vision Pro was a statement product, not a disappointment. It's not ready for prime time, but it will likely get there, along with the rest of the market. They've made a claim for the high end, and a statement about their capacity for innovative UI. Meta's headsets are a promising gimmick or toy.

Apple Intelligence will likely close a good portion of the distance with OpenAI, Google and Claude. They have too many resources not to. If not.. they've never had a search engine and that worked out fine. The major players will want to be on their devices.

We all have 'wish lists' for what Apple would change, but "bean counting" does matter because it gives you flexibility for major R&D.
I think he would have considered an acquisition or investment of Tesla when there was a chance, as well as working with or acquiring either Lucid or Rivian later.

He probably would have hated LLMs at first, since they encroached on human art and things, then been all in on them when he saw how they enhance technical creativity like coding, buying or building GPUs like Elon does. He would recognize this opportunity is bigger than search. He would be investing in robotics like crazy.

Maybe apple intelligence will catch up, I hope it does to be honest, I love the idea of it, but so far it's embarrassingly awful, MS Vista, Apple Maps bad. So, if we go by apple maps, it will take a decade to be good.

The vision pro is not ready. period. Its one thing to have a v1 product, like OG iPad, its another to have this heavy monstrosity, the ergonomics are awful. I wanted one, I would have bought one, but I tried it for a whole day at a dev event and was the most disappointed I've ever been. Weight alone is a non-starter.

Meta's headsets are actually more practical, they just don't have a software ecosystem to leverage and the baggage of **** privacy choices of Facebook. To be fair, there's no headset I like, they all fall short.

When you make just 1 phone, 2 ipads, and 4 macbooks, 2 desktops, you have the flexibility to pursue new innovations as they come your way.

When your engineering teams are burdened with all the variations and QA and support for 5 phones, 5 ipads, 6 macbooks, 3 desktops, surprise surprise, you have less room to try something totally new, R&D budgets don't make a difference. It's about having the talent that can push things forward in totally new industries instead of talent that is only focused on endless iteration.

BMW had a bigger R&D budget than Tesla, didn't work too well for them. BMW has amazing talent, but having a leadership culture of innovation rather than iteration matters.

The software stack alone at Apple has gotten so complicated and the quality has worsened. This is not by chance. This is a leadership problem. Its leadership that says we need 5 iPads at 5 different price points across 3 sizes and 2 apple pencils at 2 price points instead of just one. Its so unnecessary and severely limits innovation. This is the effect of the bean counters.

Of course you need good supply chains, or course you need to count things, you need to scale. Tim Cook and leadership are very good at these things. They are very good at a lot of things. This is why Apple is still "OK," but, I believe from my points above, they have lost something special and thats why they're no longer great.

Apple is peak innovator's dilemma right now, same as Blackberry was, same as BMW was. Both those companies made the wrong decisions and I'm sad to say Apple is making the same mistakes, thought not as badly as those companies. They will probably shake out ok just because they are so big, but growth will slow, brand loyalty will wane, and they leave themselves open to disruption.
 
Good post!
Couple of questions …
1. What does Apple do with all the data it collects? Note that iOS phones home more than Android.
2. “Secure” apps that Meta owns are E2EE but as they pass through Meta’s servers? I could not find a clear answer on that.

For Apple, they could have easily made all “default” texting E2EE if they would use RCS with it turned on or allow others to license iMessage.

2. All E2EE messages pass through a server (otherwise they couldn't be delivered when a device is offline), since they're encrypted they can't be read along the way.

The RCS standard (which Apple follows) doesn't currently include encryption, it's encrypted on Android as Google added a proprietary extension.
 
It’s understandable to feel a sense of nostalgia, especially in today’s world where so much seems to be changing so rapidly. Many of us look back fondly at the times when Apple and other tech giants inspired us with groundbreaking innovations.


While it might seem like Apple has reached a plateau, it’s important to remember that even the most enduring companies—like Ford, Toyota, or NASA—have been around for decades, navigating through ups and downs. They too have had their share of less remarkable years, yet they continue to evolve and surprise us, even after all this time.

Look how far SpaceX and Tesla have come to be successful and where they are now compared to before.


In our pursuit of perfection, we often find ourselves caught in a tug-of-war with our longing for nostalgia. It’s a delicate balance, and the internet has undoubtedly transformed our landscape, making surprises in technology far less common than they once were. Our devices are now inundated with news, advertisements, and social media, which can sometimes diminish the thrill of discovering new features or products.


The genuine excitement we once felt for new technology like the anticipation surrounding the latest Mac or iPhone has been muted. It’s easy to see why someone might hesitate to get too excited about a product when it seems like something even better is just around the corner. The rapid pace of advancement can make it difficult to appreciate each innovation for what it is.


We’ve all felt the loss of those exhilarating moments, perhaps compounded by the challenges brought on by the pandemic. Activities that used to bring us joy like going to the movies, visiting theme parks, or diving into video games may no longer spark that same sense of wonder. It’s a collective feeling of longing for the joy and magic that once seemed so abundant.


Yet, I genuinely believe that this excitement can return. It may take time perhaps several years but we can hold onto hope. Apple once had a distinctive spark that set it apart, and I cherish the idea of a brighter 2025, not just for Apple but for all of us. May we all find our way back to that special sense of excitement that made our experiences feel truly extraordinary.
 
Long time user since 1992.

This is the best time - I’ve been waiting for this time when I read about multi core chips years ago…

My Mac mini is twice as fast as my 2019 Mac Pro!!!!!! AMAZING 🤩

Definitely in the best of times for pro users…
 
I remember my amazement in 1984 at MacWrite and MacDraw, and then my joy in 1986 printing the school newspaper I wrote with friends on a Laserwriter from a Mac Plus. I remember at university my friend's superb SE/30, and the fun we had publishing stuff at the local computer store on campus (Macintosh IIcx et al). I remember the Newton, and Hypercard, and version 1 of Claris Filemaker (Filemaker today, btw, is insanely great). But I also remember the attack of the clones, and by the late 90s being patronised by IT staff at my workplace that Apple would be gone completely within a few years. I remember Steve Jobs coming back and NEXT, and the excitement generated by the Bondi Blue iMac, and then later by the iPod and iTunes. Those iPod silhouette ads meant business. But more crucially I remember being incredibly grateful that Airport Utility was sane router software (usually an oxymoron), that Migration Assistant was hilariously easy, and that a desktop computer with a built-in screen, optical drive and modem showed respect. It was computers for the rest of us.

So here's my point. Whenever I use Migration Assistant or a MagSafe connector, or I unbox a new Apple product, or visit the Apple website, or watch an Apple keynote, I am in truthincredibly thankful that these experiences are now mainstream. You see, it was NEVER just the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field, or the high prices, or the shiny aluminium that hooked us. It was the sense. The design. The attitude that computers were for real people. That things should be intuitive and should work.

They still are; they still do. OK, sure, I personally managed to avoid all the butterfly-keyboard laptops. And that iMac hockey-puck mouse was admittedly very dumb. But usually, cool and good went together. Good IS cool. That's why Apple stuff is still cool.
 
Yes, the magic of Apple is fading.

Skeuomorphic design was a fundamental and essential part of the magic of Apple. For an Apple CEO to not know that shows how staggeringly clueless Tim Cook is.

Cook fired Scott Forstall. Forstall was the most Steve Jobs-like person at Apple. For an Apple CEO to not know that shows how staggeringly clueless Tim Cook is.

When Jobs was CEO, Apple's main focus was on giving the most value to customers by building the most user-friendly products. When Cook became CEO, Apple's main focus became giving the most value to shareholders by giving less to customers for their money in order to maximize profits.

Many current Apple fans lack critical thinking skills, and think that if Apple is making record profits, then their products must be higher in quality now than ever before. Those Apple fans think Tim Cook can do no wrong.
 
Last edited:
What you have written above is somewhat true, but the cost of living was lower back in those years, and earnings were lower too. Nowadays our earning are much higher, and also our cost of living. But there is something that one should notice as follows:

a. Those who could afford buying an iPhone, or a car, or a house in 2008 weren't as numerous as there are today.

b. Nowadays iPhones are being sold by the thousands, if not millions, because of population increases and wealth around the world, and a great number of consumers buy the iPhone on credit.

Median household incomes in the U.S. have largely kept up with inflation since 2007 and while some things, like housing and healthcare, have seen notable increases in recent years one can’t blame Apple for that or suggest (as the other poster I responded to stated) Apple "was never more expensive than it is today."

Looking at phone plans, the cheapest AT&T iPhone plan back in 2007 was $59.99/month (plus taxes/fees) which is around $91/month in today's dollars. There were also AT&T plans that could go much, much higher. Today, there are plenty of smartphone plans available for significantly less and that "savings" can easily cover much if not all of the cost of a new iPhone over time.
 
Yes, the magic of Apple is fading.

Skeuomorphic design was a fundamental and essential part of the magic of Apple.
No it wasn’t.
The designs most people associate with Skeuomorphism (the leather calendar app on the Mac/iPad, the Game Center pool table, the Podcasts reel to reel player) were all introduced in a two year time period from 2010 to 2012.
Before that, though, Apple had all sorts of different application designs.
From more Skeuomorphic like QuickTime 4.0 and the early Mac OS X brushed metal windows) to the unification away from Skeuomorphic windows in OS X Leopard.

Skeuomorphism hit it’s peak with Lion and mountain lion, operating systems both released when Steve wasn’t even leading the company.
When lion released, he had already been six months into a medical leave, and when ML released he was dead.
 
Yes, the magic of Apple is fading.

Skeuomorphic design was a fundamental and essential part of the magic of Apple. For an Apple CEO to not know that shows how staggeringly clueless Tim Cook is.

Agreed, there was nothing more useful and fundamental than stitched-leather and fake torn-off sheet in the calendar app, or green felt in the game center app.. :rolleyes:

I've never seen a stitched-leather calendar in my life. This was about as "magic" as Microsoft Bob.

Screenshot 2024-12-16 123337.png
 
Last edited:
Who the hell listens to radio anymore? I don't know a single person who listens to regular, not Sirrius XM radio. Not one person.

Me! There are a couple really good commercial-free independent local stations. One of them puts on a free outdoor concert series once a month all summer and thousands show up.

Neither are the top-25, or whatever it is, stations.
 
Last edited:
I've been thinking about that topic for a while and I agree with many of you.

I'm young, my first Apple product was the iPod nano, in 2006 approximately, if I remember correctly. In Spain (and in southern Europe in general), Apple products were uncommon. And yes, carrying an iPod was something special and unique in a world of cheap MP3s that they gave away with the newspaper.

Then came the iPhone (the 3Gs) and later the Mac and the iPad. And I have always liked their products. Maybe the iPhone 5 disappointed me a lot, maybe because on Android they already had bigger screens. I never liked the iPhone 6 aesthetically and with iOS 11 it was unusable. The iPhone 13 Pro Max made me despair with the camera, I found it quite bad compared to the 12 Pro Max, being the processing very washed and excessive. I love the iPhone 4, the iPhone X, the 12 Pro Max and my current 15 Pro Max and they have been great devices for me.

I am an unconditional fan of the iPad, I love the product despite its limitations.

And the Mac for me is much better than Windows, especially the software, I have never felt comfortable with Windows.

However, in recent years I have been discovering what exists on the other side of the fence and... I really like it. The Pixel, the Galaxy Fold, and the Microsoft Surface with the Snapdragon chip have really made me realize that they work very well and I have discovered such silly and basic features that I can't explain why they are not on iOS/iPadOS.

I would love a Galaxy Fold 6 with iOS/iPadOS, but hey, it's what there is.

I like Apple, I'm still happy with its products, I love its ecosystem, but I do feel that Apple has lost that magical touch. Maybe it's the presentations, maybe it's the maturity of the market or maybe I'm getting older, but seeing more people who feel the same, makes me feel that it's something more generalized than I thought.
 
2. All E2EE messages pass through a server (otherwise they couldn't be delivered when a device is offline), since they're encrypted they can't be read along the way.

The RCS standard (which Apple follows) doesn't currently include encryption, it's encrypted on Android as Google added a proprietary extension.

Thanks for the reply but not what I asked. Meta. Meta has acknowledged they have a strictly controlled back door in FB Messenger. They have been “crickets…” about this in their other communication apps - at least that I could find. Hence the question.

As for the RCS standard, you are correct however Apple said they wanted to work with GSMA on defining one. That area has been very very quiet. Like dead quiet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audentia
When your engineering teams are burdened with all the variations and QA and support for 5 phones, 5 ipads, 6 macbooks, 3 desktops, surprise surprise, you have less room to try something totally new, R&D budgets don't make a difference. It's about having the talent that can push things forward in totally new industries instead of talent that is only focused on endless iteration.

...

The software stack alone at Apple has gotten so complicated and the quality has worsened. This is not by chance. This is a leadership problem. Its leadership that says we need 5 iPads at 5 different price points across 3 sizes and 2 apple pencils at 2 price points instead of just one. Its so unnecessary and severely limits innovation. This is the effect of the bean counters.
The fragmentation does drive me crazy, at least they could standardize the naming. Not the Air, Pro, SE, Ultra, plain name mishmash. Oh, and then "Studio" too!

I've always assumed it doesn't tax their engineers too much to design the variations, and that the Apple Watch is massively overpriced relative to the SE.

Your argument's well-taken, I just don't think they're suffering from as much inertia and entropy as you do, and they're taking plenty of swings for the fences.

Who's been more innovative in tech over the last decade? Google tried smart glasses, they tried social networking; Microsoft had a headset, an AiO, that goofy Kinect camera. Amazon and Google are ahead in smart homes, but they got there acquiring Ring and Nest. Samsung doesn't have anything really interesting going on.

Apple's best innovations weren't pure inventions, either, they just made unexpected design choices with existing product categories. An iPod was effectively a Walkman/Discman with a hard drive and a wheel; the iPhone was a Blackberry with a touch screen.
 
FWIW I think "embodied Siri" is the most interesting possibility space. Re-pot existing software in some kind of anthropomorphic desktop/countertop shell, add a handful of new ideas, and grind away at the UI until it's hypnotic, enchanting, fluid, and useful. An Amazon Show calendar on the wall, a Google Hub are exactly the sort of by-the-numbers products Apple used to re-imagine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audentia
Amazon has their weird little Astro bot, or there's something like this - https://looirobot.com/products/looi...x_-t8mXXKd9QSckT6ue9zupJUBvgt-6AaAh66EALw_wcB

Everyone knows the software goal for "AI" - it's location aware, context aware, personalized, timely, unobtrusive, useful, anticipates what the user needs but doesn't overwhelm them.

That shouldn't live in your phone. There's an archetype - "droids" in sci-fi, Nintendo R.O.B., audioanimatronics like Teddy Ruxpin, hell, a talking parrot. Whoever turns the human fantasy behind the archetype into a device can take ML/LLMs to the normie market and make gobs of money.

And it's pure aesthetics, pure design - what Apple used to excel at.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audentia
Exactly. Steve Jobs didn't install Tim Cook just because he thought it'd be a fun thing to try. Likely, what we're seeing now is more like what Apple would have looked like under Steve Jobs still at the helm than not. It's also entirely possible that had Steve Jobs lived, he would have installed Tim Cook anyway and stepped back (or left entirely) so he could go do other things.
People still forget that Steve stepped down as CEO and installed Tim Cook while he was still around.
 
I find that current Apple Devices are as amazing and exciting as ever. But when you’ve onboarded to 20 iPhones, the feeling isn’t the same. It’s a you problem, not them.

Don’t upgrade your Mac, iPad or iPhone for 10, 5, and 3 years respectively. Then upgrade and you’ll get that feeling back.

You just can’t expect the same excitement when you’re upgrading from “great” to, “great!” You need to go from “great” to “goodness mother of gawd!”
 
Yes, the magic of Apple is fading.

Skeuomorphic design was a fundamental and essential part of the magic of Apple. For an Apple CEO to not know that shows how staggeringly clueless Tim Cook is.

Cook fired Scott Forstall. Forstall was the most Steve Jobs-like person at Apple. For an Apple CEO to not know that shows how staggeringly clueless Tim Cook is.

When Jobs was CEO, Apple's main focus was on giving the most value to customers by building the most user-friendly products. When Cook became CEO, Apple's main focus became giving the most value to shareholders by giving less to customers for their money in order to maximise profits.

Many current Apple fans lack critical thinking skills, and think that if Apple is making record profits, then their products must be higher in quality now than ever before. Those Apple fans think Tim Cook can do no wrong.
100% Correct. Tim Cook, the feckless CEO is 100% responsible for what Apple has turned into.

Tim Cook, Steve Jobs' greatest mistake.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ThomasJL
Cook fired Scott Forstall. Forstall was the most Steve Jobs-like person at Apple. For an Apple CEO to not know that shows how staggeringly clueless Tim Cook is.
That you are saying something like this shows that you don't understand revolutions, don't understand culture, and don't understand Apple.

Firing Scott Forstall was perhaps one of the best (and hardest) decisions Tim Cook has made since he took charge, given the reports of how famously difficult he was to work with the other executives. It doesn't matter how good an engineer Scott Forstall was. Apple didn't need another Steve Jobs, because the price of individual brilliance is collective friction, and only an original founder (ie: Steve Jobs) has the cultural capital to make this work. Absent these factors, any value he may have brought to the company would be more than offset by the problems that resulted because of his personality.

In short, Scott was going to be more trouble than he was worth.

Firing Scott Forstall sent home the message that no one man is indispensable, that the glue holding Apple together is design and a shared belief system of making great products. This tells me that Tim Cook, similar to Steve Jobs, understood what made Apple, Apple (again, not any one person, but the culture), and it's no surprise as to why he's the best person for the job, or why he was named successor by Steve Jobs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: navaira and Starfia
Many current Apple fans lack critical thinking skills, and think that if Apple is making record profits, then their products must be higher in quality now than ever before. Those Apple fans think Tim Cook can do no wrong.
Or maybe Apple is making record profits precisely because they do make great products that people are willing to pay a premium for? People like to throw shade at Apple products for this problem or that, but fact remains - people are still buying them, and I think this is something you cannot just dismiss as "sheep".
 
  • Like
Reactions: navaira and Starfia
That you are saying something like this shows that you don't understand revolutions, don't understand culture, and don't understand Apple.

Firing Scott Forstall was perhaps one of the best (and hardest) decisions Tim Cook has made since he took charge, given the reports of how famously difficult he was to work with the other executives. It doesn't matter how good an engineer Scott Forstall was. Apple didn't need another Steve Jobs, because the price of individual brilliance is collective friction, and only an original founder (ie: Steve Jobs) has the cultural capital to make this work. Absent these factors, any value he may have brought to the company would be more than offset by the problems that resulted because of his personality.

In short, Scott was going to be more trouble than he was worth.

Firing Scott Forstall sent home the message that no one man is indispensable, that the glue holding Apple together is design and a shared belief system of making great products. This tells me that Tim Cook, similar to Steve Jobs, understood what made Apple, Apple (again, not any one person, but the culture), and it's no surprise as to why he's the best person for the job, or why he was named successor by Steve Jobs.

This is abject nonsense. Tim Cook is nothing but a bean counter. He has no credibility whatsoever when it comes to technology or innovation. None at all. It is the feckless Cook that should have been sh!tcanned rather than Scott Forstall.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: ThomasJL and smulji
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.