Is the new Mac Pro a failure?

[flat five]

In your hypo, the diamond case, in no way affects functionality. So, yes, both would be identical in functionality.

Nevertheless, it would be the manufacturer putting a premium over non-functional features, eg, diamond coating, over functional features in such an instance.

If the non diamond version costs, say $1000. But the diamond version costs $100,000. Quite clearly, in that case, the manufacturer choosing to make a diamond version is placing a higher value on the form over the function. It is designing with that philosophy where the actual function is quite secondary in value to the form.

So that is the monetary sense of form being more important a driver than function, even if functions remain identical.

Then there is a second sense where form dominates function. The cases, as between the cMP and nMP, quite obviously, are not identical. IMO, the nMP made compromises on expandability and other pro-desired features for the sake of form. Reasonable can disagree on this, of course, but the proportion of this survey, and the comments from the latest macworld article on this topic are telling of apple's success in balancing form and function for the target professional market may be off.

without going hypothetical, there's a real example of what you guys are talking about regarding the mp.

the shell would look sweet when fresh off the lathe.. or a light blast.. maybe more the sheen of a mbp but it would look good after that process.. apple has decided to add some diamonds/bling to the thing by going the extra steps of anodizing and polishing to basically mirror finish.. and you're paying extra for that bling with no added functionality.

however, what seems to be ignored here is that the shell itself is functional.. it's doing a lot more than sitting there looking pretty.. it's cooling the computer.. it's shaped the way it is for a specific reason/function.. it's not shaped that way for people to look at.

 

[Demigod Mac]

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/new-mac-pro-2015-release-date-apple-ditched-discontinued-3536364/

Wow, look at the comments section on that article. (just in case you thought the discourse on this forum didn't reflect "real world" pro users and was merely an echo chamber for Apple-hating "PC fanboys")

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

the reality of what i'm saying is that yes, this thing is user serviceable.. but all of your (internal) upgrade/replacement spending is going to be through apple.. apple is going to make a crapton of $$ off of people buying drives and gpus etc (for instance.. sell 1000 drives at $1000.. that's a million right there.. and i think they'll sell a whole lot more than a thousand drives.. it's actually looking like apple is moving towards using one type of drive in all of their computers.. not only is that easier for them, it's also way (way!) more profitable)

Wow, progress. You ALMOST admitted that you were wrong.

I don't think apple ever made a crapton off video cards or replacement drives for nMP. Yet no acknowledgment of that mistaken prediction.

Everyone is wrong sometimes. No shame in it. I even see the line of reasoning behind it, not what I would think, but not totally unreasonable.

If there is no acknowledgement over being wrong over such blatantly proven wrong predictions, I don't see any reason to pursue the issue, as reasoned discourse cannot continue without acknowledgment of the reality of how things actually turned out.

But you seem admirably persistent in your optimism MVC.
[doublepost=1452576384][/doublepost]

without going hypothetical, there's a real example of what you guys are talking about regarding the mp.

the shell would look sweet when fresh off the lathe.. or a light blast.. maybe more the sheen of a mbp but it would look good after that process.. apple has decided to add some diamonds/bling to the thing by going the extra steps of anodizing and polishing to basically mirror finish.. and you're paying extra for that bling with no added functionality.

however, what seems to be ignored here is that the shell itself is functional.. it's doing a lot more than sitting there looking pretty.. it's cooling the computer.. it's shaped the way it is for a specific reason/function.. it's not shaped that way for people to look at.

Please don't alter the hypothetical; that is not the discussion I am having with someone else. The point youre making was freely and actually acknowledged in an earlier post where I noted some find the function of the nMP to have admirable traits:

#1566

Now some will rightly argue, that the nMP is smaller and quieter, uses less power, and that does provide valuable function and utility to some. True. I agree. And others will argue, that it comes at the price of expandability, and actually fails in being smaller because you need external boxes, and then it fails at being quieter and more power efficient because of it. And for their uses. Also, true. I agree.

Please dont use my posts in conversation and change their focus for yourself, much less make statements about items that were acknowledged a few posts prior as if they weren't already noted. It detracts from the conversation IMO.

 

[ale500]

They did a disposable computer, use it 2 odd years and throw it away when (if) the new comes out like an iMac. Sadly, for the price one can get much more bang for buck.

One of the problems they had to solve was PCIe+Video and PCIe does not (in its current form) allow it, means they needed their our video card bus or no thunderbolt would be available.
I remember the old ProLiant 6000 or 7000 (end 90s) had RAD cards without cables to the disks. They routed the signals using a double row PCI-X slot. No standard, but the mobo had 1 or 2 of such slots. Apple could have done something similar but the GPUs would have been custom anyways.

MSI's way of using mxm is probably the best because the cards and the bus exist already... Maybe not desktop-class GPUs there (yet) but standard.

At least they included 6 TB ports... they could have gone with just one...

 

[flat five]

Please don't alter the hypothetical; that is not the discussion I am having with someone else.

what? it's the same exact thing.

shiny nmp --> sprinkle with diamonds
not shiny nmp --> sprinkle with shine

nothing to be upset over imo

#1566


Please dont use my posts in conversation and change their focus for yourself, much less make statements about items that were acknowledged a few posts prior as if they weren't already noted. It detracts from the conversation IMO.

you're still with this though:
(from 1566 and others)

this is a triumph of design form over function for the professional market segment.

it's function first.. i.e.

person a- how can we move air more efficiently?
person b- we can try a cylindrical shape with a single fan
persons a&b -- sounds good.. lets roll with that.. i suppose the aesthetics are going to be a relatively small cylinder then.

form follows function (which, by the way.. is the real saying that everyone seems to enjoy mangling)

 

[bogg]

Right, lets move the goal posts. It's fast. It's probably not as expensive as you theorize to make you point, much like the statement asserting cMPs being non bootable in 4k mode (not yours) that was argued to be wrong by MVC in mere minutes.

.

I didn't move any goalposts, I was impressed by the speed and wondered what product it was, as my edit says i realized what unit you were speaking about and thus also the price range, I kept the rest of the post for the purpose of being upright and not change the posts after the fact.

How do I move goalposts when I'm genuinely impressed by the speed? And how do _I_ move goalposts when I haven't even set any? Did I move your goalposts? Then that's your problem, not mine

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

what? it's the same exact thing.

shiny nmp --> sprinkle with diamonds
not shiny nmp --> sprinkle with shine

nothing to be upset over imo...

I really am not interested in your characterization and bent on a conversation I'm having with someone else. Feel free to keep indulging yourself and talking to yourself on your own topics.
[doublepost=1452579065][/doublepost]

I didn't move any goalposts, I was impressed by the speed and wondered what product it was, as my edit says i realized what unit you were speaking about and thus also the price range, I kept the rest of the post for the purpose of being upright and not change the posts after the fact.

How do I move goalposts when I'm genuinely impressed by the speed? And how do _I_ move goalposts when I haven't even set any? Did I move your goalposts? Then that's your problem, not mine

Sorry. I totally misunderstood your reaction. I thought you were completely dismissing it, when apparently it was the opposite. Sorry about that bogg.

As for goalpost moving, regardless of who does it, it's not conducive to meaningful discussion, IMO. YMMV.

 

[flat five]

I really am not interested in your characterization and bent on a conversation I'm having with someone else. Feel free to keep indulging yourself and talking to yourself on your own topics.

got it. adios

 

[MacVidCards]

I don't think apple ever made a crapton off video cards or replacement drives for nMP. Yet no acknowledgment of that mistaken prediction.

Everyone is wrong sometimes. No shame in it. I even see the line of reasoning behind it, not what I would think, but not totally unreasonable.

If there is no acknowledgement over being wrong over such blatantly proven wrong predictions, I don't see any reason to pursue the issue, as reasoned discourse cannot continue without acknowledgment of the reality of how things actually turned out.

But you seem admirably persistent in your optimism MVC.

Yeah, it's an interesting puzzle. I'm going to go back to trying to run "up" the "down" escalator, I'll have better odds.

Meanwhile, I booked a shoot so won't be able to continue trying to teach a cat to "roll over" for a couple days. Some Germans in town for an internet speed thingy. You always know it's a bunch of Europeans when the call sheet has the guy running the camera as the "DOP".

 

[bogg]

Personally, from a purely "consumer" point of view I miss the cMP, I really wanted one for a quite long time but the new nMP doesn't really have the same feel to it. And I have no desire to own one. From a purely professional point of view they are both equally good for what I do, (I don't do any work that requires massive GPU power so the GPU of an iMac is more than enough for me)

 

[8692574]

It's hard to describe a failure, nobody knows the sales figures they thought it would achieve and nobody knows if they met them.

Even so, a machine like that might have more cost than revenue and still not be a failure, consider all the tech and the engineering that went into that thing, it might have costed a fortune, and the Mac Pro alone might not pay back, but the experience gained mght be used for other products hence making money in the long run for the company.

 

[mcnallym]

In your hypo, the diamond case, in no way affects functionality. So, yes, both would be identical in functionality.

Nevertheless, it would be the manufacturer putting a premium over non-functional features, eg, diamond coating, over functional features in such an instance.

If the non diamond version costs, say $1000. But the diamond version costs $100,000. Quite clearly, in that case, the manufacturer choosing to make a diamond version is placing a higher value on the form over the function. It is designing with that philosophy where the actual function is quite secondary in value to the form.

So that is the monetary sense of form being a more important and dominating concern over function, even if functions remain identical, ie, the manufacture simply placing a premium value over the concerns of form over function despite equal function.

Then there is a second sense where form dominates function. The cases, as between the cMP and nMP, quite obviously, are not identical. IMO, the nMP made compromises on expandability and other pro-desired features for the sake of form. Reasonable people can disagree on this, of course, but the proportion of this survey, and the comments from the latest macworld article on this topic are telling of apple's success in balancing form and function for the target professional market may be off.

I am sorry but what you are referring too is form factor not the price of the case.

In the first half you agree with me, where the functions are identical despite a different cost of the case. You agree with me on the first line that the two cases have the same functionality, despite the price difference. Clearly the price of the case here makes no difference.

You then talk about loss of features for the sake of form. You haven't lost internal expandability, the ability to add 2 optical drives, multiple hard drives etc into the case because it costs more you have lost them because you cannot physically fit them inside the nMP case. That is the SIZE and LAYOUT, or FORM FACTOR of the case, not down to if the case costs more or less then the cMP.

So please answer my question. What has the price of the nMP case got to do with the loss of the functionality, compared to the cMP. What you are giving me is case shape not price in your examples. Hence why not understanding that it is the price of the case causing the loss of features and functions.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I am sorry but what you are referring too is form factor not the price of the case.

Probably my bad, but I'm not sure I can convey the gist here any better. Will try.

...

So please answer my question. What has the price of the nMP case got to do with the loss of the functionality, compared to the cMP.

Price has nothing to do with the actual functionality.

What you are giving me is case shape not price in your examples. Hence why not understanding that it is the price of the case causing the loss of features and functions.

So I made the assertion that with the nMP was an example of 'form over function.' There are multiple reasons why someone might see that the nMP is an exercise in 'form over function.'

I'm giving you two different ways, that I believe, a reasonable person could find that function follows form.

The second way, and easier to understand way is where the actual form factor/shape is different, and where I think we're on the same page. Different forms can lead to different features, abilities, etc. (or lack thereof). So if we decided it was more important to fit a computer on your wrist, it would result in dictating many features of such a tiny device. Right? Hopefully this second way in which I think form can dictate function is uncontroversial?


The first way that I was discussing has nothing to do features or actual function. It's more a philosophical view. So while price has nothing to do with actual functionality, the price is one way of weighing which is more valuable directive, form or function, for the manufacturer.

For example, if function were a more important design imperative, the manufacturer may establish that 80% of the cost of a computer was allocated to features (eg., more ports, more gigahertz, more pixels, more drive space, etc.). Or even if you kept the feature set constant, if form were unimportant, then the manufacturer might use cardboard as a case, because form was simply unimportant in the over all design directive of the computer. Conversely, while if form were more important a design imperative, the manufacturer may establish that 80% of the cost of a computer were allocated to a shape for the computer (eg, diamond covered, bedazzled, platinum plated, etc.).

So when a manufacturer spends more time and allocates more expense to the aesthetics (while keeping functionality otherwise equal), they placed a greater emphasis on the value of form, and as such, 'form over function' is the resulting philosophy that the manufacturer pursues.

 

[lowendlinux]

I said earlier "Disagree, if it has an overpriced case, it's not functioning."



Sorry for lack of clarity.

Sure, what I mean is, sometimes you are paying purely for design and no gained functionality. For example, if you add a bedazzled case with diamonds and gold etc. that is otherwise identical to an aluminum case. Stuff that is purely for design aesthetics, in such an extreme made up example, the price of the machine would sky rocket costing, perhaps, 100x the cost of the same non-jewelry version of the machine. In such an extreme case, you clearly have form over function, IMO.

Now some will rightly argue, that the nMP is smaller and quieter, uses less power, and that does provide valuable function and utility to some. True. I agree. And others will argue, that it comes at the price of expandability, and actually fails in being smaller because you need external boxes, and then it fails at being quieter and more power efficient because of it. And for their uses. Also, true. I agree.

From my vantage, for many if not most professionals, like the Mac cube before it, this is a triumph of design form over function for the professional market segment.

Even if you disagree with the point, I hope I made the point a little more clearly.

From the article:


The video also notes, power supply is part of the machine, so no brick.

I saw the coverage of this at CES to and to be fair to the nMP nVidia didn't make desktop MXM cards at the time it was being developed. Now that the pieces are in place I can see Apple moving to MXM and nVidia on the update and that might also account for the delay. In reality I see quite a bit more of this in the future companies can just buy one form factor GPU and use it in their portables, AIO's, and desktops. The simple switch to MXM would alleviate most folks issue with the computer.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Since the nMP and basically all macs are suboptimal or outright cant do VR development, it's another professional market going to windows, in substantial part because apple isn't make a real professional machine to serve the professional markets.

Apple has nothing to do with the VR market going to Windows. Its Oculus Rift stopping development on Mac & Linux platform. While Apple may not currently have the graphics for it to work, it certainly would work for Linux as the hardware could easily be built for it. The Linux community would certainly be up for the task. But market share wins out along with mass market appeal.

 

[bogg]

I saw the coverage of this at CES to and to be fair to the nMP nVidia didn't make desktop MXM cards at the time it was being developed. Now that the pieces are in place I can see Apple moving to MXM and nVidia on the update and that might also account for the delay. In reality I see quite a bit more of this in the future companies can just buy one form factor GPU and use it in their portables, AIO's, and desktops. The simple switch to MXM would alleviate most folks issue with the computer.

MXM Cards and M.2 instead of proprietary SSD connectors. Maybe even a spare m.2 and on board raid capability

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Apple has nothing to do with the VR market going to Windows. Its Oculus Rift stopping development on Mac & Linux platform. While Apple may not currently have the graphics for it to work, it certainly would work for Linux as the hardware could easily be built for it. The Linux community would certainly be up for the task. But market share wins out along with mass market appeal.

They have no reason support a platform that the manufacturer itself doesnt support and doesnt provide professional grade equipment suitable for their software.

You can debate the merits of linux and any other marginally tangential topics with others that care, that's not the topic at hand. And if you cant tell the difference between the mac (a platform long the stronghold of creative professionals) and linux (the hero of IT closets everywhere), I'm not sure anyone can help.

 

[linuxcooldude]

They have no reason support a platform that the manufacturer itself doesnt support and doesnt provide professional grade equipment suitable for their software. You can debate the merits of linux with others that care, that's not the topic at hand, and if you cant tell the difference between the mac (a platform long the stronghold of creative professionals) and linux (the hero of IT closets everywhere), all the more reason for me to be uninterested by your thoughts on the topic.

But, of course, by you strategically dismissing the issue with Linux. More than likely you can't explain it, so it seems you would rather dismiss it altogether. You are the one mentioning VR Tech going to Windows in any case. Windows and Mac are not the only operating systems out there with relevance to VR.

 

[wallysb01]

Because if the RAID is in the workstation and the latter died, I'd lose more functionality than just the workstation and there are far fewer things to go wrong in the NAS.

Except you can move RAIDs between computers, even if the computer dies and even software RAIDs.... at least in Ubuntu Linux, so probably also in OS X Unix (though I've never tried).

Plus, I'd really like to see data that NASs "die" less than workstations. I guess it could be highly user dependent....

 

[bogg]

Except you can move RAIDs between computers, even if the computer dies and even software RAIDs.... at least in Ubuntu Linux, so probably also in OS X Unix (though I've never tried).

Plus, I'd really like to see data that NASs "die" less than workstations. I guess it could be highly user dependent....

Software RAIDs are never a problem moving between computers as long as the OS is the same (linux MDraid and LVM volumes are a no brainer to move, as are zraids, btrfs pools and also OS X and Windows software raids).
The problem is with some hardware raids (and I'm talking about REAL hardware raid cards, not most $100 software/hybrid-raid-disguised-as-hardware raid cards out there), in those cases you really need the exact same model or atleast a card in the same series to be able to recover the data. If the card is EOL and you can't get a second hand one, too bad for you.

 

[lowendlinux]

MXM Cards and M.2 instead of proprietary SSD connectors. Maybe even a spare m.2 and on board raid capability

To me it would be logical and assuredly cheaper.

 

[wallysb01]

Software RAIDs are never a problem moving between computers as long as the OS is the same (linux MDraid and LVM volumes are a no brainer to move, as are zraids, btrfs pools and also OS X and Windows software raids).
The problem is with some hardware raids (and I'm talking about REAL hardware raid cards, not most $100 software/hybrid-raid-disguised-as-hardware raid cards out there), in those cases you really need the exact same model or atleast a card in the same series to be able to recover the data. If the card is EOL and you can't get a second hand one, too bad for you.

thanks for the clarification.

 

[bogg]

To me it would be logical and assuredly cheaper.

Yes, it seems strange that Apple who likes to tout external connectors as "Industry standard" or "Open Standard" (MDP, USB-C, Thunderbolt and so on) are so extremely fixed on using proprietary internal connections...

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

But, of course, by you strategically dismissing the issue with Linux. More than likely you can't explain it, so it seems you would rather dismiss it altogether. You are the one mentioning VR Tech going to Windows in any case. Windows and Mac are not the only operating systems out there with relevance to VR.

I'm also going to strategically dismiss it going to plan 9, to Pick system, to DOS, to OS/2, to solaris, to PRIMOS, to AMIGA OS, to automobile firmware, etc... as all have equal weight and relevance as linux to creative professionals: asymptotically approaching zero.

 

[bogg]

thanks for the clarification.

I believe the point he's trying to make in the internal vs external storage discussion is that if you've got your storage internally in a workstation and say the logic board dies, the workstation is offline and your data is too until you replace the logic board (that is, both the data and the workstation is useless). If the same happens and you use a NAS, the data is still accessible, if the NAS dies the data is gone until it is fixed but the Workstation is still online.

So by creating two PoFs you've basically covered your ass. Sure the workstation could be more or less useless without the shared data, but hopefully you've got some work to do which doesn't require the data until the NAS is fixed (and vice versa, if the workstation dies your company hopefully has a few other workstations as well).
It's about keeping downtime to the least possible time.

Personally at home I've got 3 NAS:es to store my data (one for backups, one for movies, pictures, tv-shows and so on and a third to backup the other two). I've tried to cover my ass as much as possible so that my data will always be accesible.
At work I've got offsite backups from our storage and that offsite backup can be used as working copy of the data if the main storage dies (so I'll never have downtime there either).
[doublepost=1452588053][/doublepost]

I'm also going to strategically dismiss it going to plan 9, to DOS, to automobile firmware, as all have equal weight and relevance to linux for creative professionals: none.

ZombiePhysicist: Ever heard of Gimp? My Linux fanatic friends tell me Gimp really outcompetes Photoshop these days!
:Sarcasm:

I've actually heard about a few ad agencies using blender (in Linux) to make their CGI-based ads. But still, a few ad agencies doesn't make up for a large percentage of the whole market