MP 7,1 Is the new Mac Pro too niche?

[Moonjumper]

I think it is far too niche. Yes, it is great for those who need it to do what they demonstrated such as edit 3 8K streams, or work with hundreds of instruments at once. But what about those who only need one 4K stream, or edit tracks for bands with only a few instruments. And what about all the professionals in other industries that need decent power, but not the last few percentages that ramp up the price many times over.

The iMac and Mini are not good substitutes. They cannot be upgraded if changing standards require a small upgrade. They mean sending the machine off for repair if something fails, not a quick component replacement.

My first Mac was nearly a Pro, but I went with an iMac as it was powerful enough. But within the Applecare period I ended up without it for a month in total while they took two attempts to fix it. Thankfully I wasn't in a critical period. It could have been much worse.

I have an iMac now, but it is not ideal. I know it will take time to fix if something goes wrong. It has a Fusion drive, which was a reasonable compromise at the time, but would now have been upgraded if it was possible. And if things are critical, I couldn't even go out and buy another iMac off the shelf as Fusion seems to be the best available.

The old cheese grater Mac Pro wasn't cheap, but it wasn't only for the extreme high end.

 

[Beandip!]

Here's a question: Who is the $6k configuration for? Does that configuration, AS IS, meet your needs as a pro?

If you answered yes, then financially, it would seem to make WAY more sense to get a $5249 iMac (NOT iMac Pro...) that has a faster cpu, faster gpu, double the ram, and EIGHT TIMES the storage... and a free 5K screen thrown in on top of all that.

OR a $3400 iMac with almost identical specs... and a free 5k screen...

If you answered no, then you're either planning to buy the $6k config and upgrade the components with your own... for more $$$... OR you're planning to buy one of the higher end configurations... for more $$$.

I get that this is a high end machine, but does it have to be EXCLUSIVELY ULTRA-high-end? I don't think its unreasonable or "whiny" for pros who aren't working at Disney to expect more power than a mid-range iMac from a $6k workstation.

Here's another question: what do you think would be a reasonable price for the new Mac Pro case with nothing in it but the motherboard and power supply?

I honestly don't know, but I'd happily pay $3k just for that, and I think that's probably a reasonably fair price. Why? Because for another $3k, I could put in EXACTLY the components I need and have a vastly more powerful machine for the same $6k... and Apple would have gotten $3k from me instead of the $0 they're going to get from me.

There's a significant portion of the pro market that Apple has now decided to completely exclude. These are people who can afford a $6k workstation, but not a $10k workstation. Therefor, these are people who need to actually have their needs met for $6k, and that really shouldn't be asking too much. An iMac falls short for this group, and unfortunately the new Mac Pro somehow falls even shorter... but it didn't have to and that's the most frustrating part of this.

These people are ready, willing, and able to spend $6k or a bit more on a decent workstation... a DECENT WORKSTATION... not the same components they could get in a mid-range iMac for $3400. But Apple flat out REFUSES to give these people ANY options, and it makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[BB8]

I mean we have Dave Lee, and he's clearly not the intended target yet he does a lot of video editting, and he's a fairly popular Ytber. Linus of LTT on the flip side seems to fit the bill maybe a bit more and he's planning on buying one.

Let's be real, the only reason Linus will be buying one is so he can make a video complaining about it.

But to your larger point, my theory is Apple keeps pushing it higher because there's more money to be made off whales buying speced out machines they don't need than offering something that's reasonable to prosumers. Guess I'm cynical.

 

[flygbuss]

Interesting thread, thanks for that.
As I mentioned in an other thread I work in audio post production for feature films and got my own studio.
I think this new Mac Pro is a good thing for two reasons (I can only speak for my personal field of profession which is audio not video so I will leave out the display, because it’s simply not needed there).
The big mixing stages now usually run several Mac Pros of the previous generations (5,1 and 6,1). For the latter expansion chassis are required to host the Avid HDX cards. One chassis is around 1000,-$.
With the new Mac Pro most likely one or two machines will suffice for the workload instead of three or four 6,1 or 5,1.
So I think at the end of the day the amount of money one has to spend is more or less the same.
Also I don’t need several Pro Tools and plug-in licenses to run and combine the machines. This is a great benefit since professional audio software is quite expensive.
For smaller studios and editors upgrading to these machines is most likely not an option because of the price. At least not yet. BUT the hardware requirements for a single editor’s place is not that big. A 5,1 or a 6,1 still does the job pretty well.
I know editors working on iMacs without any issues.
A faster machine is simply not required yet, at least not when it comes to cost-effectiveness.
So in a couple of years when this might not be enough any longer there will be a new option of used or refurbished machines available. I knew a lot of colleagues who’ve been worried about the future. This is not the case any longer.

 

[cram501]

The new Mac Pro was designed by a new team, the team is made up of deep computing scientists, ex artists and video editors and 3D artists from big companies, in other words real professionals, they will be working in all Apples ‘Pro’ devices down to the iPad Pro.

I would hope they had real professionals working on their devices from the start. I know they said they have a team with hopefully a new focus but I doubt these are any less professional than the previous architects. I would suspect they are some of the same people with a new direction.

They have built the new Mac Pro to be powerful and future proofed.

Hopefully it was one of their goals. We won't know for a few years to see how the Mac Pro is updated/upgraded or whether it stagnates again. Hopefully the former. Nobody wants to see multi-year stagnation again.

Contrary to the popular belief of self proclaimed ‘professional’ You Tubers, the new Mac Pro has NOT been made for them despite their complaining and moaning about the new machine because they can’t, or don’t want to afford it, it’s been made for actual proper real professionals.

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual proper real professionals". That is pretty vague and indeterminate. Do you mean this is targeted at specific industries?

I'm assuming the self proclaimed 'professional' You Tuber is an actual professional if they make a living doing it.

 

[CWallace]

Here's a question: Who is the $6k configuration for? Does that configuration, AS IS, meet your needs as a pro?

Probably nobody, which is why they made it a joke configuration. Though let's be honest - even if it had 10 cores, 64MB of RAM, a 1TB SSD and a Vega GPU people would still be complaining about the price because the general expectation appears to be that it would start at around $4000 with a configuration similar to an iMac Pro base model. And for the record, I thought it would be $4-5K, as well, so...

I would not be surprised if Apple Stores do not stock the Mac Pro in any configuration and instead make them all BTO. I can't really see them stocking the base model.

 

[mBox]

I'll try:

--------------------------
Six months after its release, Apple, Inc's high-end 2019 Mac Pro is still struggling to become a serious contender in the workstation world....

It's the game we all play with Apple (high-end tech).

But hey, I too played that game with other dead techs e.g. SGI, Intergraph, etc....

 

[JohnnyGo]

No need to be snarky, its a simple question.

As I said, back in the day the Mac pro was more of a general desktop used by many, now its a much higher end machine for a lot fewer.

Apple seems to be content to (finally) please high-end studios and data centers with this offering, since last year they repositioned the Mac mini with more of a focus on power users (desktop processor, eGPU capability). The 5K iMac and iMac Pro also target power users and offer good value with the built-in 5K display.

I think redheeler is spot on.

Apple has tackled the pro/prosumer/hobbyist market with a myriad of products that were not possible back 10 years ago.

1) who could imagine the performance from the new 2019 MBPs with 8 cores and tflops under the hood ? With the optional eGPU upgrades one can extend the life of this machines or make a perfect desktop power/mobility combo

2) the latest mac mini is not perfect but it’s plenty powerful. One can complain that’s not an upgradeable device but for a 3-4 year run there’s plenty bang for the buck. And hey, you fan add your current monitor setup or change monitors as time goes buy

3) iMACs have become top of the line performers as well. The cooling is not the best and GPU options could be better but no one can argue that these are gorgeous monitors (thinking of that 5k beauty) and are a great package deal. And memory is upgradeable

4) iMAC PRO are the de facto prosumer device: great looks and amazing performance (improving the cooling solution was part of the magic).

If one takes in to account the fact that Intel CPUs are no longer evolving in leaps and bounds but rather trickle down gains (except for ultra portable formats), the iMACs can be great 4-5 year workhorses for most needs.

So yes, I agree that Apple designed the new MAC PRO exclusively for the top tier professional market. IMO they smartly targeted the only segment that their other machines were not a good fit. So kudos for Apple

 

[Beandip!]

Probably nobody, which is why they made it a joke configuration. Though let's be honest - even if it had 10 cores, 64MB of RAM, a 1TB SSD and a Vega GPU people would still be complaining about the price because the general expectation appears to be that it would start at around $4000 with a configuration similar to an iMac Pro base model. And for the record, I thought it would be $4-5K, as well, so...

I would not be surprised if Apple Stores do not stock the Mac Pro in any configuration and instead make them all BTO. I can't really see them stocking the base model.

Yeah... which is a real shame because like I said, there are plenty of people out there who would love the option to pay $3k for an empty case, just to finally be able to build the Mac of their dreams... but apparently their money isn't good enough for Apple. I'm pretty positive the case, motherboard and power supply together are under $3k for Apple to manufacture, so $3k for that would still give them at least some profit, and they'd sell a LOT more units for sure.

 

[kwikdeth]

i dont think the mac pro itself is too niche. but the display? very much so.

 

[OS6-OSX]

Posts #6, #18 and #36

 

[boast]

I think they decided investing in a modular desktop for high margin and low volume is better than killing the desktop line entirely.

Desktop market growth is not there.

 

[dspdoc]

I know there's a lot of discussion going on regarding the price and I don't want to debate that here, but rather regarding who exactly is this Mac Pro intended to be for?

Back in the day, the power mac (pre-intel) and even the early Mac Pros were sold to consumers, hobbyists, prosumers and full professionals. As time went on, it seems apple was pushing the Mac Pro to the more higher end users even the trash can Mac Pro was targeted to more of the professional, but what professional?

I mean we have Dave Lee, and he's clearly not the intended target yet he does a lot of video editting, and he's a fairly popular Ytber. Linus of LTT on the flip side seems to fit the bill maybe a bit more and he's planning on buying one.

Overall with the cost coming in over 12k for a full mac pro setup, what type of market is there for these machines? Are Apple's competitors selling high end workstations offering more (or less?) then what apple has? I think and I could be wrong but similar type workstations include maintenance/service contracts to keep those high end computers working. I don't think apple has that, but I could be wrong.

As I ramble on, I guess one thought regarding the Mac Pro, did apple make a mistake in targeting the ultra highend with this model, and sales will be fewer then if they designed a desktop/tower computer that could fit the needs of prosumers, and/or hobbyists.

I personally think Apple is kind of pricing themselves right out of many people's world. I find it to be sad because it comes off as extremely elitist. Almost as if they are snubbing their nose at the general public on purpose. I think these Apple execs are completely out of touch with the reality of most people's budgets. They have so much money that it has put them in a bubble they cannot see out of. I understand that everyone is saying this machine is positioned at a group of super high end people with big budgets. Nonetheless it doesn't change the image created. Who knows, maybe this is precisely the image Apple is going for? Would not surprise me!

 

[Beandip!]

Desktop market growth is not there.

I live in Boston. The MBTA (subway) closes just after midnight, which means most people, who don't have cars, aren't generally out much later than that. Some people say "well, everything closes by 10pm anyway, so why do you need to be out that late?" Other people say "well maybe if the subway ran later, people would stay out later and more places would have a reason to stay open!"

How many people have been screaming for a new Mac Pro for the better part of a decade now? How many of those people are going to be able to afford this one? Maybe if there were better options for desktops that more people could afford, the market would grow...

 

[boast]

I live in Boston. The MBTA (subway) closes just after midnight, which means most people, who don't have cars, aren't generally out much later than that. Some people say "well, everything closes by 10pm anyway, so why do you need to be out that late?" Other people say "well maybe if the subway ran later, people would stay out later and more places would have a reason to stay open!"

How many people have been screaming for a new Mac Pro for the better part of a decade now? How many of those people are going to be able to afford this one? Maybe if there were better options for desktops that more people could afford, the market would grow...

There were also tons of people willing to buy affordable Apple Displays and Airport Routers, yet they're no longer made. The growth wasn't there.

 

[Beandip!]

I was hoping someone would answer this question so I'll ask again: What do you think a reasonable price would be for the new Mac Pro case with nothing in it but the motherboard and power supply?

Basically just a platform for users to build a Mac to their exact specifications for their specific needs. How much is that worth to you, and how much do you think Apple could reasonably charge for that and still turn a profit?

Is that something we might see from 3rd party sellers after it's been released?

 

[JohnnyGo]

I was hoping someone would answer this question so I'll ask again: What do you think a reasonable price would be for the new Mac Pro case with nothing in it but the motherboard and power supply?

Basically just a platform for users to build a Mac to their exact specifications for their specific needs. How much is that worth to you, and how much do you think Apple could reasonably charge for that and still turn a profit?

Is that something we might see from 3rd party sellers after it's been released?

Hardware integration, software drivers and incompatibility issues. See MSFT windows.

Apple wants to have tight control of all the stacks. For anyone to add plug in cards, gpus or accelerator daughter cards, like in the old mac days would take a toll of annual MacOS releases and stability. Professionals care more about stability than anything. Consumers care more about “it just works” than anything.

Does this answer your question?

 

[wallysb01]

I was hoping someone would answer this question so I'll ask again: What do you think a reasonable price would be for the new Mac Pro case with nothing in it but the motherboard and power supply?

Basically just a platform for users to build a Mac to their exact specifications for their specific needs. How much is that worth to you, and how much do you think Apple could reasonably charge for that and still turn a profit?

Is that something we might see from 3rd party sellers after it's been released?

Well, we could probably back track a bit to what Apple would change for something like this.

Apple roughly doubles the price difference between CPUs for BTOs. So the $750 3223 is $1500 off the sticker. Apple changes about $200 for 256GB SSD, they would likely charge $400 for that GPU, and 32GB of RAM in BTO runs you $400.

So you might be looking at $2500 off, or $3500.

 

[MacPoulet]

It's definitely a niche product, and more so than previous towers. But what's not being considered is that Apple has expanded their iMac and Mac Mini lineup to accommodate what many hobbyists and small studios had previously bought Mac Pros for.

Not everyone (especially on forums like these) LIKES those offerings, but they're there. It's only natural for the Mac Pro to move upmarket.

And regarding expandability, large customers like studios and educational institutions that have these machines on a lifecycle will probably configure them how they need, and replace after 3-5 years. It's unlikely they'll get intermittent upgrades unless the software calls for it. At least that's how it's been for the universities and studios I've worked at.

 

[Razzerman]

Desktop market growth is not there

It's sure as sticky-brown-stuff not there now, whereas it could so easily have been

 

[apolloa]

I would hope they had real professionals working on their devices from the start. I know they said they have a team with hopefully a new focus but I doubt these are any less professional than the previous architects. I would suspect they are some of the same people with a new direction.




Hopefully it was one of their goals. We won't know for a few years to see how the Mac Pro is updated/upgraded or whether it stagnates again. Hopefully the former. Nobody wants to see multi-year stagnation again.




I'm not sure what you mean by "actual proper real professionals". That is pretty vague and indeterminate. Do you mean this is targeted at specific industries?

I'm assuming the self proclaimed 'professional' You Tuber is an actual professional if they make a living doing it.

No, your quite wrong, anyone making videos on You Tube can easily get by with an iMac or even an iPhone, You Tube say the most popular platform for watching videos is by far mobile devices, yet some tech You Tubers have a full suite of ‘owned’ RED 5K or 6K cameras, pro level kit to go with it, pro level robotic arms, iMac Pro’s and will most likely buy the new Mac Pro, just so the majority of viewers can tell NO difference arching on their phones.. this is the equipment big Hollywood studios rent because it’s so expensive to film the latest AAA Summer blockbuster..
You Tubers are NOT Pros, film and production studios are, 3D animation studios are, people who can actually use the power and push it, not ones who want to film video in 8K just because and then upload it to You Tube only to have it compressed right down.

As for the rest of your post is just an opinion, I was stating what Apple has quoted as fact and it’s goals for the machine.

I’ve read a couple of actual pro use cases for the new machine by professionals on here, and they do not make You Tube videos...

As for those moaning Apple hasn’t given them a cheap machine that is the same as the new or old Mac Pro tower in upgradability, Apple never has and never will do that so I really don’t know why you keep going on and on and on about it?

 

[Hieveryone]

If you ask me, I think Apple is missing the mark with this release for many consumers out there.

If Apple sees a demand for this kind of machine and monitor, by all means have at. If there is people out there who are looking for this kind of machine, fine.

But what I'm saying is that I, and I'm sure others, are interested in, for example, a retina quality 27" monitor for around $1,299.

STAND INCLUDED lol.

Maybe even a Mac Pro machine that costs around $3,499 base model.

I'm not looking to hire Amber Heard and other actors and actresses to make the next Oscar winning film.

 

[cram501]

You Tubers are NOT Pros, film and production studios are, 3D animation studios are, people who can actually use the power and push it, not ones who want to film video in 8K just because and then upload it to You Tube only to have it compressed right down.

If you make a living on You Tube, whether you like the profession or not, you by definition are a professional. See: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/professional

As for the rest of your post is just an opinion, I was stating what Apple has quoted as fact and it’s goals for the machine.

Of course what I wrote was my opinion. And most of your "facts" were your opinion. That is kind of the reason for these boards.

I’ve read a couple of actual pro use cases for the new machine by professionals on here, and they do not make You Tube videos...

I'm sure they made good arguments for using the new machines for their profession. Read the definition of professional above. If I make frilly frog videos and make a living doing it, I'm a professional. Your version of who is a professional is undefined. It is obvious you have some disdain for You Tube personalities... not sure why their use case matters. If they can afford the machines because of their profession, more power to them.

As for those moaning Apple hasn’t given them a cheap machine that is the same as the new or old Mac Pro tower in upgradability, Apple never has and never will do that so I really don’t know why you keep going on and on and on about it?

I didn't go on about anything. I just responded to your ridiculous, narrow/undefined version of what you consider a "professional" and your cheap shots at who you don't think are worthy.

If people have a use case for the Mac Pro and it is in their budget, great. I think Apple is missing a market they could have filled. They obviously don't think that market is important right now and that is ok.

 

[AidenShaw]

Of course what I wrote was my opinion. And most of your "facts" were your opinion. That is kind of the reason for these boards.

+1

 

[Glockworkorange]

Totally agree. If you're using the Mac Pro professionally they are incredible value for money. I'm still running my 2019 cMP into the ground every day and it's still an extremely capable machine. I bought the mid-range model on launch and between now and then have only spent a couple of grand on upgrading the GPU, CPUs and installing an SSD. The ROI is so good on this machine that it isn't even worth thinking about.

I will gladly drop a few extra thousand on a new Mac Pro in the knowledge that it is a ten year investment that can be upgraded way beyond the base spec. Same with the new display, it's not exactly for me (I'm a graphics/3D/vfx guy not working in Hollywood) but for the couple of extra grand it costs I will absolutely be having one of those, knowing that the image quality is the absolute best I can get.

I posted this elsewhere but it’s worth repeating—-my law firm spend tens of thousands of dollars on boring old billing software annually, and nobody bats an eyelash. This is likewise a reasonable cost for people who make their living using these machines.

The new Pro is NOT for hobbyists and MOST YouTubers and independent developers (if you’re paying attention, the developers are crying the loudest that the machine is too expensive). Those people clearly wanted Apple to make this product for them, but Apple didn’t. They can go compile with an iMac Pro (which many of them probably didn’t need either) or higher end iMac or MBP.

My opinion of the Apple "developer community" and the Apple pundits and gadflies in general is they’re a bunch of whiny, spoiled and entitled brats and it’s kind of nice to watch them cry about this machine not being for them.