It's telling that you can get one of these for LESS than an iPT.

[1458279]

Yeah I'll give you that the android device *can* be a phone but that ruins your argument of it being cheaper. If you even use that phone it will shortly be more expensive than the iPod touch, thus making the feature pointless considering your whole argument has been cost-based.

Also the iPod Touch 6 with its "measly" dual core chip smashed your phone with the 8 core chip. iPod got 1385 and 2440. The phone you were talking about got 681 and 2242. Specs don't mean much at all, it's the real performance of them that counts. Dual Core > Octa Core in this case. And all 8 of those cores are very very unlikely to all be used, so iPod 6 will probably be faster a lot of the time since it only needs to power up 2 cores for max performance. For the other device to match that performance it will have to use ALL 8 which probably will never happen. Single core is what matters most, because 90% of the time only one core is being used. Single core score for the iPod was double that of the phone you mentioned. So again, it's going to be faster.

And even though one app may be on both platforms, it still will still usually be higher quality on iOS. Not ALL cases, but the majority of them.

Being a dev I can tell you the few really use the cores properly. Even with Apples dev system, it's an advanced study to really understand how to use a multicore chip properly. I'm not sure how advanced Android's tools are, but I've heard bad things about them.

The point is that this is much more on the developer and the creator of the tools for the developers than on the device. Most code is written to get the job done with the least amount of work by the programmers. Schools (including Stanford) tell programmers to not optimize their code. They end up with bloated code. Not the fault of the device, in fact as apps become more advanced, they'll have no choice but to optimize, as the chips can't get much faster and have to go with more cores because you can't run a hand-held with that much heat. Getting rid of heat is a big issue with fast chips, so that have to look to other options.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Most of the argument is based on ecosystem, but the fact is any ecosystem can improve. It shouldn't be that hard for Android to improve it's ecosystem. I haven't used Android, but if the ecosystem is really that bad, it could be improved. It's not like Apple has a patent on good ecosystems.

So if I may ask, why are you here talking about this? I kinda lost the idea of this thread after a while.

If it was 'Is there anything less costly than an iPod Touch', the answer is, emphatically, YES.

If it was to let us know of a device that is a 'phone', and yet can be 'just like an iPod Touch', I have to say, well, an iPhone is 'just like an iPod Touch', and it's a phone as well.

If the motivation is purely 'cost', you have been informed by myself and others that there is a lot of intrinsic value that you ignore when you limit your 'cost' to cost of the physical device.

So, again, why?

Here's a clue, most people do know that the iPod Touch isn't a phone. I don't care. Actually it makes it easier to use because it's NOT a phone. I can fly to LHR, or SYD, and listen to what I want, play some mindless games, wait until the sleeping pill kicks in, and have a fully charged phone so that when I land, I can catch up with all of the 'crises' that happened while I was 'gone'. How many times I've been on a plane that provides USB, or AC charging for devices, and it's 'not working (We're so sorry)'.

But, yeah, different strokes... Yeah... You can take my Touch, out of my dead hands. I have enough gray hairs. I don't need more trying to switch to a totally different platform just because it's 'cheaper'...

Now, rave about the iPad Pro, and what a 'glorious waste of money' that is...

Try to think about how people want it to have their next child... Or be their next spouse! Why I pant and get flushed around the Mac Pro displays at the 'local' Apple Store, and probably will around the iPad Pro displays as well. (At least until someone buys a kidney so I can get one. (128, cellular please. I have good kidneys.)

Bedtime for Bonzo. Goodnight. I'll dream of bouncing baby iPad Pro's, and, well...

 

[1458279]

Seems like people get very emotional over this. Clearly Apple has done it's job in marketing their product line.

I didn't like the outdated specs of any of the iPadMini's. Apple was charging much more than others and didn't even start off with a Retina display. One update was only a finger print scanner and a color change, yet the full sized models got much more for the same prior retail price.

It's one thing to ask top shelf price, it's another to use old tech for those devices while asking that price. The iPT and past mini's were outdated before they were released. They could have brought them up to the latest iPhone standard. Look how long the iPT waited for the last update, yet the price remained the same.

If the ecosystem justifies this for some, then fine, but that still doesn't answer why Apple didn't bring things up to current standards. It certainly can't be a cost factor, even if it were, they could have adjusted the price, they've done that before.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Then look at Dell.

They actually charge a premium for their hardware, and aren't really 'pushing the envelope', and having been a VAR for over 30 years, often I could get HP products faster than Dell just about any day of the week, but there is that 'Dell Religion'...

Plus Dell was found guilty for selling refurbished systems as new, and sending out known defective systems too. As we picked them up, we had one system that took Dell four times to send a working motherboard.

And their 'World Class Support' was third world back when we dealt with them. We had a client that wanted to add a RAID array to their server. 'Simple', or so I thought. Called Dell, explained what we wanted, and they gave me a parts list, and ordered all of them, except for one specific part that we absolutely needed.

It took me over three hours on the phone to track down that part, to have someone ask me, 'Why didn't you order the kit'? ARG!!! And another week to get that one part... Oh, no, they would not take back the parts we already had for some obscene reason.

So, Dell is trash in my book. Over priced trash at that...

 

[1458279]

Then look at Dell.

They actually charge a premium for their hardware, and aren't really 'pushing the envelope', and having been a VAR for over 30 years, often I could get HP products faster than Dell just about any day of the week, but there is that 'Dell Religion'...

Plus Dell was found guilty for selling refurbished systems as new, and sending out known defective systems too. As we picked them up, we had one system that took Dell four times to send a working motherboard.

And their 'World Class Support' was third world back when we dealt with them. We had a client that wanted to add a RAID array to their server. 'Simple', or so I thought. Called Dell, explained what we wanted, and they gave me a parts list, and ordered all of them, except for one specific part that we absolutely needed.

It took me over three hours on the phone to track down that part, to have someone ask me, 'Why didn't you order the kit'? ARG!!! And another week to get that one part... Oh, no, they would not take back the parts we already had for some obscene reason.

So, Dell is trash in my book. Over priced trash at that...

I was called a liar by a customer support rep during a 45 min argument on the phone because their online coupon wouldn't process the discount. Another company was out of stock and said the product would ship when it got back in stock. Instead, they cancelled the part and didn't inform me while I was waiting weeks for what I had ordered.

Customer service has gone down the tubes years ago. Most business models end up as a race to the bottom to cut costs anywhere they can. They send customer service to the cheapest provider and cut costs anywhere they can. The more the merge together, the worse it gets because you have less choice.

 

[schopaia]

Remember, the iPhone is made in China.

There's a difference between made in China and designed and engineered in China. I don't think anyone here is disputing the capabilities of China's manufacturing facilities. Certainly their design and engineering could be questioned? Particularly when compared with Apple, Google etc?

 

[j26]

But if a 'free market' means less competition, how can it be a 'free'?

BTW, I'm typing this on a 6 year old MacBook Pro, running El Capitan, and quite well too, thank you.

Try that on a 6 year old PC notebook running Windows.

Other than that, I can't tell where you are going. Sorry.

Windows 10 runs spiffingly on my 6 year old laptop...

 

[spinedoc77]

Just read about this: http://bluboo.com.cn/xtouch_d.html

For less money than the latest iPT, you can get a FULL PHONE with better camera, larger screen, and 8X core processor. I'm not sure how all the specs compare, but I just don't see how Apple will be able to continue more that a few years with the real growth being in poor nations.

I'm a fan of Apple products, but this is really telling about the profit margin they are asking (and many are paying). If I wasn't so invested in Apple ecosystem as an app developer, I'd switch, even if I just needed an MP3 player, this is really a better deal. I can't see people in Asia dishing out the same money for an iPT when they can get a higher spec'd phone.

Part of the profit margin goes to customer service. I'm not sure what kind of customer service you would get out of that company, every other sentence on their site demonstrates bad grammar. I'm not picking on their grammar, but if they couldn't afford to have their website made with proper English then I'd be wary of what other corners they have cut.

I'm not in love with my iPhone, It's stuck in the stone age in terms of OS and software and has zero customization options. But I value the ability to walk into an Apple store with any issues and have them immediately addressed. Hell you don't even get that option with Android flagships costing the same amount as the iPhone.

But then again you could just buy 2 or 3 of those bluboo phones and never need customer support. I do think you make a great point and definitely valid, but Apple's market has never been the low end, look how the 5C ended up. Apple is kind of like a concierge service built around the phone, it's not only the hardware but also the infrastructure Apple provides.

 

[Blaze4G]

There seems to be alot of misconception in this thread. Many opinions based on their own experience from 5 -10 years ago.
Fact of the matter is the market has become extremely competitive. Most windows laptops /ultrabooks in the 500-1000 range will last just as long and perform as good as a macbook of similar specs.
Most Android phones in the 400-500 range will last just as long and be as smooth as an iPhone. (Excluding heavily skinned androids).

This reminds me of a debate / issue where I am from. Most persons in my home country still consider Hyundai's garbage and would never buy one based on their experiences in the 1990s. However many of you in this thread will agree that Hyundai is very competitive and right up there with Honda and toyota in quality for the pass 3 or more years.

Although I think this phone might not be good, take a look at something like the one plus x for 249.

Now if people want to buy Apple products, I don't see anything wrong with that. If you really enjoy and like using a product then buy it. After all you worked hard for your money. However don't trash talk other products based on outdated experiences.

Now some persons will say, well I used a windows laptop, Android or windows phone last week and it was horrible. Okay? You do realize there is tons of different products running Windows and Android? So if one of these products you used recently you had a bad experiences with, that does not automatically mean the other hundreds of products are automatically bad.
The BMW 7 series (2000-2003) is garbage. Does this automatically means every model BMW both current and past are garbage? I don't think so, but I leave that up to you to decide.

 

[apolloa]

Just read about this: http://bluboo.com.cn/xtouch_d.html

For less money than the latest iPT, you can get a FULL PHONE with better camera, larger screen, and 8X core processor. I'm not sure how all the specs compare, but I just don't see how Apple will be able to continue more that a few years with the real growth being in poor nations.

I'm a fan of Apple products, but this is really telling about the profit margin they are asking (and many are paying). If I wasn't so invested in Apple ecosystem as an app developer, I'd switch, even if I just needed an MP3 player, this is really a better deal. I can't see people in Asia dishing out the same money for an iPT when they can get a higher spec'd phone.

I would rather take the iPod Touch ANYDAY over some random manufactures ultra cheap Android handset. I would rather put up with the daft invite system and buy a One Plus X then the phone you posted.

The iPod offers a great eco system and is guaranteed to work well with it. The camera is also supposed to be alright plus yes you get customer service too.

 

[1458279]

Excellent example of the Hyundai. They had a bad rep all over the world and did a complete turn-around. Not all companies/brands can do this, overcoming a bad rep is tough.

One other issue is that the devices will become so good, that it'll become hard to justify an upgrade. Look at the latest offerings and ask what would it take for you to dump it and buy a new one? Would it take more pixels? Larger screen? Thinner profile?

Much like the world of PCs, my last upgrade was some 5 years ago, it works fine, the one before that was about 5 years as well. I've never upgraded every time a new standard comes out.

I didn't buy my 1st iPod until the video-30 was out.

There's no reason Android can't make a good ecosystem and offer good customer service.

 

[noisycats]

To many, Apple is an aspirational product. The company is not going after the lower tier.

 

[Michael Goff]

Misses the point of bang for the buck. You compared a "WalMart Special" to a 3K bike.

What I'm saying is that the "3K bike" doesn't have the same offerings as the "WalMart Special"

In this case:
The "WalMart Special" has
More memory
Larger display
More cores in the CPU
More storage
An actual phone

The "3K bike" has
Less memory
Smaller display
Less storage options
Slower CPU
No phone

As to the quality comparison, someone pointed out that the cost of an iPhone is about $200. So that means that I can have an iPhone made for $200 and sell it for $250 and it would be exactly the same thing.

You're assuming that this product is "cheap", meaning poor quality. It may or may not be poor quality, but the point is that it COULD be the same quality as an iPT. If an iPhone can be made for $200, maybe a company could use the exact same parts, made by the exact same people and sell it for $250.

There's a reason Apple has so much money. I'm not saying it's either good, bad or deserved. I'm saying that someone could produce the same thing and offer it at much lower price and have the same quality. I don't know if this company has done that, but they could have.

Is is really slower in terms of CPU? Or are you assuming more cores means better performance?

 

[1458279]

Is is really slower in terms of CPU? Or are you assuming more cores means better performance?

Most software and OSs don't take advantage of the cores. Multi-threaded programming is a newer skill and pretty advanced. It's newer because it could be ignored on a PC because a PC can have a HUGE heat sink. Hand held's really can't have much for a heat sink because of size.

Programming for multi-cores pretty much requires advanced tools that can monitor core usage and knowledge so that you don't dead lock. Many app devs are new and even advanced ones didn't have to get into this as much before.

There's also overhead with more cores, so it really requires testing in order to fine tune. Most don't bother because the talent pool is wide and shallow.

In the long run, more cores can win with advanced programs. Also, some game engines automatically account for the cores, so you have advanced programmers that develop an engine that takes care of these things.

 

[nfl46]

Personally, I'd rather buy into a mature ecosystem like Apple, than risk spending money on a cheaper device that probably won't be updated in a few years. The thing is, we can always count on Apple to CONSTANTLY update their devices. Even on the Android side, you can't rely on that happening...even if you have a Nexus device. Google only had 4 updates from November 2014 to April 2015; while iOS had 11 updates in iOS 8. A lot of Apple updates were big updates (8.1, 8.2, 8.3 and 8.4).

 

[j26]

Google only had 4 updates from November 2014 to April 2015; while iOS had 11 updates in iOS 8. A lot of Apple updates were big updates (8.1, 8.2, 8.3 and 8.4).

Apples and oranges - Android has separated the apps from the OS, and they are updated through the Play Store. Apple bakes app updates into the system updates. Core apps are constantly updated. HTC has even taken this approach with its skinned version of Android.
And 11 updates in 6 months suggests there were significant issues with the OS which had to be addressed.

 

[nfl46]

Apples and oranges - Android has separated the apps from the OS, and they are updated through the Play Store. Apple bakes app updates into the system updates. Core apps are constantly updated. HTC has even taken this approach with its skinned version of Android.
And 11 updates in 6 months suggests there were significant issues with the OS which had to be addressed.

My thing is, Google had significant issues with their OS and takes forever to fix it...or will completely ignore its user. They're not the most dependable company when it comes to updates. Apple on the other hand, will quickly release an update...as you can see 11 updates. At least they were taking care of their issues, instead of having customers on Android resort to workarounds and custom roms to fix issues they should be fixing themselves.

 

[j26]

My thing is, Google had significant issues with their OS and takes forever to fix it...or will completely ignore its user. They're not the most dependable company when it comes to updates. Apple on the other hand, will quickly release an update...as you can see 11 updates. At least they were taking care of their issues, instead of having customers on Android resort to workarounds and custom roms to fix issues they should be fixing themselves.

Which is a fair point, but doesn't get away from the fact that an OS that needs that many updates must have been quite poor to start with...

 

[MRU]

So with a thread like this the OP ignores every factor that makes the price we pay in $€ different to the price someone else world.

But yes if truly ignore every economic then the phone is cheaper in theory than an iPod Touch.

Sadly the real world doesn't ignore every economic factor governing the difference between manufacturing costs and actual retail price alongside freight, marketing, branding and every other governing factor as to why item a costs less in territory A than a different item in Territory B. So sadly the OP's point of intent and this thread is utterly moribund ...

 

[Arran]

Remember, this is a comparison of the iPT to a REAL FULL phone. It's bigger, faster, better cameras and cheaper, and has a real phone.

And where do I take it when it breaks?

I don't remember seeing BluBoo stores at malls that can swap it out and have me up and running in minutes.

 

[1458279]

1st point: the iPT is NOT Apple's latest tech. It's outdated on the 1st day it came out. Out dated CPU, camera, etc... They clearly could have made it the same as the iPhone without the phone. They didn't... It's an outdated product based on Apple's own product line, just like the iPadMini, outdated.

2nd point: I called Apple about my iPod to get a new battery. I was told it must be evaluated 1st, and if they determined it needed a new battery, the total cost was over $100. I replaced the battery myself with an eBay kit for < $15 (IIRC). So the price I paid to purchase it, didn't help me at all. I understand it was out of the care time frame, but the cost of replacing the battery was beyond the value of the product. The retail value was about $50.

As to marketing, branding, freight... Is Apple the only one that has these costs? Is the value of branding reflected in the value of the product, or does that show up in Apple's bottom line? Compare the profit of Apple vs Samsung. A company can spend as they wish for stores, branding, etc... It's up to the consumer if they wish to pay that.

Branding is very powerful and Apple has nailed that, some of us think that's in the product, others look at Apple's profit margins and see it there. Apple short cutting the iPT without short cutting the price doesn't serve me, it serves their bottom line. How much would it have hurt Apple to bring the iPT and iPadMini3 up to their current standards?

How much does branding, freight, service, and ecosystem matter when you are paying for old, outdated tech?

Apple has every right to pawn off old tech to people that will blindly buy anything they sell, but some of us don't see the value in the outdated product.

 

[NT1440]

So this thread is basically, why doesn't apple jump into a market where there is NO margins to speak of.

Why would or should they?

 

[MRU]

So this thread is basically, why doesn't apple jump into a market where there is NO margins to speak of.

Why would or should they?

Yep.

It also seems to based on the false assumption that a product retailing at $200 in China would also sell for $200 in America.

 

[Michael Goff]

Most software and OSs don't take advantage of the cores. Multi-threaded programming is a newer skill and pretty advanced. It's newer because it could be ignored on a PC because a PC can have a HUGE heat sink. Hand held's really can't have much for a heat sink because of size.

Programming for multi-cores pretty much requires advanced tools that can monitor core usage and knowledge so that you don't dead lock. Many app devs are new and even advanced ones didn't have to get into this as much before.

There's also overhead with more cores, so it really requires testing in order to fine tune. Most don't bother because the talent pool is wide and shallow.

In the long run, more cores can win with advanced programs. Also, some game engines automatically account for the cores, so you have advanced programmers that develop an engine that takes care of these things.

That's not even what I asked. Because according to GB, sometimes it barely beats the A8 only in multicore score and never in single. Sometimes, it loses in both. The graphics processor definitely isn't as good.

 

[1458279]

That's not even what I asked. Because according to GB, sometimes it barely beats the A8 only in multicore score and never in single. Sometimes, it loses in both. The graphics processor definitely isn't as good.

The point is that of performance. Benchmarks aren't everything when it comes to performance. A skilled programmer can make a slow machine work faster than a faster machine by properly using the cores. But that still doesn't address the primary issue, it's outdated tech. It's yesteryear by Apple's own standard. The only thing that it "today" is the price tag. I'll go buy week old doughnuts at fresh doughnut prices because they are name brand. Continue to be blind to the fact that these are OLD TECH. Old tech with a brand name, doesn't make it new tech.

Given these responses, I can see why Apple charges so much, they have people addicted. Proving Edward Bernays correct once again. How little control people have over themselves, no wonder most nations are paralyzed with debt.