It's telling that you can get one of these for LESS than an iPT.

[Michael Goff]

The point is that of performance. Benchmarks aren't everything when it comes to performance. A skilled programmer can make a slow machine work faster than a faster machine by properly using the cores. But that still doesn't address the primary issue, it's outdated tech. It's yesteryear by Apple's own standard. The only thing that it "today" is the price tag. I'll go buy week old doughnuts at fresh doughnut prices because they are name brand. Continue to be blind to the fact that these are OLD TECH. Old tech with a brand name, doesn't make it new tech.

Given these responses, I can see why Apple charges so much, they have people addicted. Proving Edward Bernays correct once again. How little control people have over themselves, no wonder most nations are paralyzed with debt.

So how is the A8 less powerful than the chip in the thing you've mentioned? And how will the software in the thing you've brought up defeat iOS and the A8 in terms of performance? You can act like everyone is a fanboy, but without facts I'm going to continue to point out how you're wrong.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

The point is that of performance. Benchmarks aren't everything when it comes to performance. A skilled programmer can make a slow machine work faster than a faster machine by properly using the cores. But that still doesn't address the primary issue, it's outdated tech. It's yesteryear by Apple's own standard. The only thing that it "today" is the price tag. I'll go buy week old doughnuts at fresh doughnut prices because they are name brand. Continue to be blind to the fact that these are OLD TECH. Old tech with a brand name, doesn't make it new tech.

Given these responses, I can see why Apple charges so much, they have people addicted. Proving Edward Bernays correct once again. How little control people have over themselves, no wonder most nations are paralyzed with debt.

I've been in this industry for over 35 years, and I can tell you that if you can buy it now, it's already out of date.

And, regarding benchmarks, one benchmark isn't going to tell you much besides that it does what that benchmark tests good, or bad. More than one, and you can get a clearer indication of the performance of a particular chip or device.

It's up to the beholder to decide what, if anything, the benchmarks really mean.

Say, a system really rips getting stuff off of SATA, but everything else lags. Well, that system blows, UNLESS you are primarily doing a lot of data transfers on SATA drives.

Regarding the 'magic in a programmers finger tips', that usually relies on highly optimizing compilers, and/or going to assembly, or machine code. Today's programmers don't have the luxury of learning assembler code for each individual chip, and even between members of the same family, there can be deprecated code and new, altered, or deprecated API's, so a programmer isn't likely to dip that low into a device. ALSO the cost, and idiosyncrasies of highly optimizing compilers makes that unlikely too. And throwing multiple cores at a device isn't a sure winner either. I read a research paper on that subject, and it said, basically, that barring any radical advancements in the underlying structure of semiconductor construction coupled with compiler design, that there is a limit to the number of cores in one processor you can use before you start swimming in cores and drown. Same with memory. There is a 'sweet spot', and you play outside that, and performance takes a noticeable hit.

The fact is that today's devices are made for lazy programmers. They have a lot of memory, and that means that code optimization is nearly the last thing on their minds. BTW: It floors me that all of the early game systems did their 'magic' in memory as small as 16k. There is so much bloat in today's software that it would make a programmer from those days panic...

So, no, benchmarks kinda do matter, and a programmer isn't going to win the Indy 500 on a watermelon.

If multiple benchmarks blow, the device isn't going to be 'faster' than anything... There is only so much lipstick you can put on a pig. It's still not going to be a date for the prom...

Sorry...

 

[1458279]

So how is the A8 less powerful than the chip in the thing you've mentioned? And how will the software in the thing you've brought up defeat iOS and the A8 in terms of performance? You can act like everyone is a fanboy, but without facts I'm going to continue to point out how you're wrong.

Would you at least agree that the A8 is less powerful than the A9? One of the points is that Apple is putting out old tech based on their standards. The iPhone gets their best, the rest get shorted (except in markup). I (and many others) complained about this when the Mini3 came out with nothing but finger print scanner and gold color... at the same time, the full iPad got MUCH more. The prices didn't reflect that poor upgrade.

 

[1458279]

I've been in this industry for over 35 years, and I can tell you that if you can buy it now, it's already out of date.

And, regarding benchmarks, one benchmark isn't going to tell you much besides that it does what that benchmark tests good, or bad. More than one, and you can get a clearer indication of the performance of a particular chip or device.

It's up to the beholder to decide what, if anything, the benchmarks really mean.

Say, a system really rips getting stuff off of SATA, but everything else lags. Well, that system blows, UNLESS you are primarily doing a lot of data transfers on SATA drives.

Regarding the 'magic in a programmers finger tips', that usually relies on highly optimizing compilers, and/or going to assembly, or machine code. Today's programmers don't have the luxury of learning assembler code for each individual chip, and even between members of the same family, there can be deprecated code and new, altered, or deprecated API's, so a programmer isn't likely to dip that low into a device. ALSO the cost, and idiosyncrasies of highly optimizing compilers makes that unlikely too. And throwing multiple cores at a device isn't a sure winner either. I read a research paper on that subject, and it said, basically, that barring any radical advancements in the underlying structure of semiconductor construction coupled with compiler design, that there is a limit to the number of cores in one processor you can use before you start swimming in cores and drown. Same with memory. There is a 'sweet spot', and you play outside that, and performance takes a noticeable hit.

The fact is that today's devices are made for lazy programmers. They have a lot of memory, and that means that code optimization is nearly the last thing on their minds. BTW: It floors me that all of the early game systems did their 'magic' in memory as small as 16k. There is so much bloat in today's software that it would make a programmer from those days panic...

So, no, benchmarks kinda do matter, and a programmer isn't going to win the Indy 500 on a watermelon.

If multiple benchmarks blow, the device isn't going to be 'faster' than anything... There is only so much lipstick you can put on a pig. It's still not going to be a date for the prom...

Sorry...

+1 on lazy programmers, most study as little as they can to get the job done and nothing more.

"Today's programmers don't have the luxury of learning assembler code for each individual chip"

The fact is that a system like these are a balance, memory, graphics, CPU, etc... Much like a PC where a top end graphics card might be going idle crunching database records. Some want/need to push the edge to offer performance of games, while others are posting cat pics for the world to see.

Some if this is hidden by game engines that take care of things for you, while others really don't need more than the speed they have.

That's actually an argument for the device not being as important. What value does a high end gaming GPU have to someone posting cat pics or crunching accounting data?

Either way, the point is that this is NOT Apple's best. Just like Apple ignored the iPT for years, did they adjust the price as it aged?

 

[Michael Goff]

Would you at least agree that the A8 is less powerful than the A9? One of the points is that Apple is putting out old tech based on their standards. The iPhone gets their best, the rest get shorted (except in markup). I (and many others) complained about this when the Mini3 came out with nothing but finger print scanner and gold color... at the same time, the full iPad got MUCH more. The prices didn't reflect that poor upgrade.

Yes, but I doubt they could make enough chips for both since they sell a lot of phones. Not to mention we're talking around 300 or so less for the cheapest model.

Edit: 450$, actually. The iPod touch 16gb is 450$ less than this year's entry iPhone.

 

[Hastings101]

But if a 'free market' means less competition, how can it be a 'free'?

BTW, I'm typing this on a 6 year old MacBook Pro, running El Capitan, and quite well too, thank you.

Try that on a 6 year old PC notebook running Windows.

Other than that, I can't tell where you are going. Sorry.

No problems on my almost six year old Toshiba Qosmio lol, in fact it's faster than it was originally thanks to Windows 10

 

[1458279]

Yes, but I doubt they could make enough chips for both since they sell a lot of phones. Not to mention we're talking around 300 or so less for the cheapest model.

Edit: 450$, actually. The iPod touch 16gb is 450$ less than this year's entry iPhone.

Would you feel better about buying an iPT if it had all the same guts as the iPhone except the phone part? There really is not long term shortage of chips, they can make more, it's not like the iPT has much market share.

I think over time, the point will be made by the market. Most everyone that wan't an iPhone/iPod/etc... already has one. They are selling into a very tough market, they have to offer enough to get people to drop what they have now for what's new. That could die off soon, how much better of a camera do we need?

 

[Michael Goff]

Would you feel better about buying an iPT if it had all the same guts as the iPhone except the phone part? There really is not long term shortage of chips, they can make more, it's not like the iPT has much market share.

I think over time, the point will be made by the market. Most everyone that wan't an iPhone/iPod/etc... already has one. They are selling into a very tough market, they have to offer enough to get people to drop what they have now for what's new. That could die off soon, how much better of a camera do we need?

No, because I have an iPhone and don't need an MP3 player. If I needed something to just use as an MP3 player, there's plenty of 60$ Windows Phones.

As for the shortage of chips, I don't think you get how many phones they're going to sell.

Anyway, just looked at the price. 150$ for something that will likely perform worse than the iPT. And if performance doesn't matter, there are cheaper Windows and Android phones than the one you're pushing.

I get the feeling that's what this is really about. You really want to push this product and thought this was an actual good strategy to do so.

 

[1458279]

No, because I have an iPhone and don't need an MP3 player. If I needed something to just use as an MP3 player, there's plenty of 60$ Windows Phones.

As for the shortage of chips, I don't think you get how many phones they're going to sell.

Anyway, just looked at the price. 150$ for something that will likely perform worse than the iPT. And if performance doesn't matter, there are cheaper Windows and Android phones than the one you're pushing.

I get the feeling that's what this is really about. You really want to push this product and thought this was an actual good strategy to do so.

Interesting logic.

Q. Would you feel better about buying an iPT if it had all the same guts as the iPhone except the phone part?
A. No, because I have an iPhone.

So you would feel better about buying an iPT if it had LESS to offer? The issue is about the value of the iPT, why would you want less of an iPT based on owning another device?

As far as chips, is there some reason they can't make more chips? They can't increase production? Looks like they have slowing sales, given the small market for the iPT, it shouldn't stop iPhone sales:

http://www.gsmarena.com/analysts_ar...et_its_initial_sales_estimates-news-14497.php

If you actually took the time to read what I've posted, you'd see that I'm talking about Apple charging a 1st rate price for outdated tech. That product is just one of many, which was also pointed out by others.

It's pretty clear that logic has left the room and emotion has taken over. The issue of what Apple is offering in one line vs other lines should be straight forward. If you are so emotional over this that you can't see that the iPT has older specs based on current Apple standards, then so be it.

Isn't it counter to your logic when you say a $60 Windows phone would work? So a $60 Windows phone is better quality than a $150 Android? Seems counter to the price/quality logic suggested before. So the $150 phone will perform worse and the $60 Windows phone won't ?

I'm not pushing this phone, I'm pointing out Apple's substandard outdated product compared to the price they want for it.

The iPT is simply over price and outdated. I'd probably push an Android edge type tablet anyways.

 

[Technarchy]

You'd be better served with concerning yourself with your own purchases and not Apple's business model.

Apple has always lived in a competitive market where there were vastly cheaper competitors. This is not new to them on any level, and they play this game well. Better than anyone else in fact.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

You'd be better served with concerning yourself with your own purchases and not Apple's business model.

Apple has always lived in a competitive market where there were vastly cheaper competitors. This is not new to them on any level, and they play this game well. Better than anyone else in fact.

AND, often they are their own competitor. Look at the comments of people buying the iPad Pro instead of a MacBook Air.

In the end, Apple makes good stuff. The secret sauce keeps it all together (mostly) and it has developed into a 'cool' brand. They have also largely earned the devotion of their fans. I have had iMacs replaced with brand new ones in the past. I have had Apple employees go what I consider above and beyond the call of duty to fix a problem. I have seen the good and bad of a lot of vendors over the years, and I applaud Apple for taking the needs of their customers seriously.

With that, I'd have a hard time switching vendors for my cell phone, or music player.

Other companies are pissed because they see Apple, and wonder what they have that they don't.

They have a reputation that money can't buy...

And with that, I'm done with this inane thread.

 

[1458279]

Yea, someone close this thread, it's gone way off base.

 

[I7guy]

Interesting logic.

Q. Would you feel better about buying an iPT if it had all the same guts as the iPhone except the phone part?
A. No, because I have an iPhone.

So you would feel better about buying an iPT if it had LESS to offer? The issue is about the value of the iPT, why would you want less of an iPT based on owning another device?

As far as chips, is there some reason they can't make more chips? They can't increase production? Looks like they have slowing sales, given the small market for the iPT, it shouldn't stop iPhone sales:

http://www.gsmarena.com/analysts_ar...et_its_initial_sales_estimates-news-14497.php

If you actually took the time to read what I've posted, you'd see that I'm talking about Apple charging a 1st rate price for outdated tech. That product is just one of many, which was also pointed out by others.

It's pretty clear that logic has left the room and emotion has taken over. The issue of what Apple is offering in one line vs other lines should be straight forward. If you are so emotional over this that you can't see that the iPT has older specs based on current Apple standards, then so be it.

Isn't it counter to your logic when you say a $60 Windows phone would work? So a $60 Windows phone is better quality than a $150 Android? Seems counter to the price/quality logic suggested before. So the $150 phone will perform worse and the $60 Windows phone won't ?

I'm not pushing this phone, I'm pointing out Apple's substandard outdated product compared to the price they want for it.

The iPT is simply over price and outdated. I'd probably push an Android edge type tablet anyways.

Your entitled to your opinion but there are others, millions and millions in fact, that disagree with your point of view.innovation by all definitions is state of the art.

 

[Michael Goff]

Interesting logic.

Q. Would you feel better about buying an iPT if it had all the same guts as the iPhone except the phone part?
A. No, because I have an iPhone.

So you would feel better about buying an iPT if it had LESS to offer? The issue is about the value of the iPT, why would you want less of an iPT based on owning another device?

As far as chips, is there some reason they can't make more chips? They can't increase production? Looks like they have slowing sales, given the small market for the iPT, it shouldn't stop iPhone sales:

http://www.gsmarena.com/analysts_ar...et_its_initial_sales_estimates-news-14497.php

If you actually took the time to read what I've posted, you'd see that I'm talking about Apple charging a 1st rate price for outdated tech. That product is just one of many, which was also pointed out by others.

It's pretty clear that logic has left the room and emotion has taken over. The issue of what Apple is offering in one line vs other lines should be straight forward. If you are so emotional over this that you can't see that the iPT has older specs based on current Apple standards, then so be it.

Isn't it counter to your logic when you say a $60 Windows phone would work? So a $60 Windows phone is better quality than a $150 Android? Seems counter to the price/quality logic suggested before. So the $150 phone will perform worse and the $60 Windows phone won't ?

I'm not pushing this phone, I'm pointing out Apple's substandard outdated product compared to the price they want for it.

The iPT is simply over price and outdated. I'd probably push an Android edge type tablet anyways.

A) Money doesn't change physics, you know? A factory can still only output so many good chips.
B) They're charging 200$ for a 16gb iPT with an A8. To buy an iPhone 6 with an A8, it costs 550$ this year. So they're not charging top dollar.
C) I wasn't arguing quality, I was arguing cheaper. You were arguing cheaper. I'd also argue anyone to buy anything that doesn't have a POs MediaTek chip in it. Regardless, you said something about an MP3 player alone. If you just need that, the 60$ will play MP3 just as well as the other. People get an iPT to run apps, which it will do better than the Android phone you linked.
D) I'm not buying an iPod Tiuch regardless of what it has in it.


The only reason you'd buy the phone you mention is price. It won't run apps as well. The screen isn't likely going to be as good, either.

 

[1458279]

Your entitled to your opinion but there are others, millions and millions in fact, that disagree with your point of view.innovation by all definitions is state of the art.

What exactly is innovative about OLD TECH? The whole point is missed again. It's OLD TECH. How can OLD TECH be state of the art?

Doesn't anyone study logic any more?

 

[1458279]

A) Money doesn't change physics, you know? A factory can still only output so many good chips.
B) They're charging 200$ for a 16gb iPT with an A8. To buy an iPhone 6 with an A8, it costs 550$ this year. So they're not charging top dollar.
C) I wasn't arguing quality, I was arguing cheaper. You were arguing cheaper. I'd also argue anyone to buy anything that doesn't have a POs MediaTek chip in it. Regardless, you said something about an MP3 player alone. If you just need that, the 60$ will play MP3 just as well as the other. People get an iPT to run apps, which it will do better than the Android phone you linked.
D) I'm not buying an iPod Tiuch regardless of what it has in it.


The only reason you'd buy the phone you mention is price. It won't run apps as well. The screen isn't likely going to be as good, either.

So a factory the produces old chips, can't produce new chips? The world good CPU manufacturing is at 100% and they can't ever produce more?

You're assuming that it's not physically possible to produce enough A9 chips for both iPhone and iPT? The world doesn't have enough room for another chip factory? Apple sells some 20X more iPhones than iPT and 6s sales are slow, but you know the exact factory output of the A9 chip is 100%?

Not to mention all the other missing or outdated parts. Same as they did with the Mini3, it was shorted when compared to what the Air got.

"People get an iPT to run apps, which it will do better than the Android phone you linked" So you've bought this device and compared how it runs apps? How much better did it run the apps?

"The screen isn't likely going to be as good, either" --- Remember the Mini didn't get Retina even after other Android tablets have them already. The Mini was short-changed from the very start.

The iPT went YEARS with NO update at all, yet the price was still the same.

How can you say it's not top dollar, not top dollar compared to their own line? I'm comparing top dollar to other product lines. The mini has no retina and was more than Nexus.

The argument is NOT cheaper alone, it's price/specs. The iPT didn't get the latest, it's old tech, period.

BTW, the 6 is not the latest, the 6S has the A9.

 

[Michael Goff]

So a factory the produces old chips, can't produce new chips? The world good CPU manufacturing is at 100% and they can't ever produce more?

You're assuming that it's not physically possible to produce enough A9 chips for both iPhone and iPT? The world doesn't have enough room for another chip factory? Apple sells some 20X more iPhones than iPT and 6s sales are slow, but you know the exact factory output of the A9 chip is 100%?

Not to mention all the other missing or outdated parts. Same as they did with the Mini3, it was shorted when compared to what the Air got.

"People get an iPT to run apps, which it will do better than the Android phone you linked" So you've bought this device and compared how it runs apps? How much better did it run the apps?

"The screen isn't likely going to be as good, either" --- Remember the Mini didn't get Retina even after other Android tablets have them already. The Mini was short-changed from the very start.

The iPT went YEARS with NO update at all, yet the price was still the same.

How can you say it's not top dollar, not top dollar compared to their own line? I'm comparing top dollar to other product lines. The mini has no retina and was more than Nexus.

The argument is NOT cheaper alone, it's price/specs. The iPT didn't get the latest, it's old tech, period.

BTW, the 6 is not the latest, the 6S has the A9.

The processor is more powerful and the Apps are more optimized. The OS is also more optimized. The apps will run better. Logic and common sense say a more powerful platform with a more optimized platform and apps will be better than a less powerful and less optimized system.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

What exactly is innovative about OLD TECH? The whole point is missed again. It's OLD TECH. How can OLD TECH be state of the art?

Doesn't anyone study logic any more?

Christie Brinkley, I think not!

 

[1458279]

The processor is more powerful and the Apps are more optimized. The OS is also more optimized. The apps will run better. Logic and common sense say a more powerful platform with a more optimized platform and apps will be better than a less powerful and less optimized system.

Wouldn't the apps run better on the A9 vs the older A8 chip? Yet the iPT didn't get the A9. Released the same year as the 6S, but with the older chip.

In fact, it looks like only the 6S got all the latest thing, while everything else was left behind in one way or another.

Again (the point that keeps getting missed) this argument wasn't about Apple is faster than Android. It's about the iPT and it's specs vs current iPhone specs.

Again, the iPT is outdated. <---- THIS is the point.

The Mini1 and 3 were very outdated upon release. Yet you seem to overlook this and move the argument to other things.

Are you suggesting that because of the ecosystem, apps, etc... that an outdated iPT is better than a fully updated iPT?

It's good that the Mini1 had no Retina? It's good that the Mini3 had no upgrades other than color and id scanner? The Mini got screwed and the iPT got screwed, NOT Apple's best product.

What exactly did the iPT get that was new to the Apple product line? Nothing except the OS.

 

[Michael Goff]

Wouldn't the apps run better on the A9 vs the older A8 chip? Yet the iPT didn't get the A9. Released the same year as the 6S, but with the older chip.

In fact, it looks like only the 6S got all the latest thing, while everything else was left behind in one way or another.

Again (the point that keeps getting missed) this argument wasn't about Apple is faster than Android. It's about the iPT and it's specs vs current iPhone specs.

Again, the iPT is outdated. <---- THIS is the point.

The Mini1 and 3 were very outdated upon release. Yet you seem to overlook this and move the argument to other things.

Are you suggesting that because of the ecosystem, apps, etc... that an outdated iPT is better than a fully updated iPT?

It's good that the Mini1 had no Retina? It's good that the Mini3 had no upgrades other than color and id scanner? The Mini got screwed and the iPT got screwed, NOT Apple's best product.

What exactly did the iPT get that was new to the Apple product line? Nothing except the OS.

And yet even Brin one year old, comparing it to th crap phone you brought up is a disservice. You pay 50$ more and get performance for it. You're moving the goal posts to make Apple look bad. Stop it. Be intellectually honest. Use facts.

I mean, you're basically asking why Apple doesn't lose money on the iPT as a way of saying they're screwing iPT users while bringing up a phone that uses a crap processor.

Edit: In essence you're saying that the iPT, a 200$ device, is lacking compared to a 650$ device and patting yourself on the back. Is it outdated next to the 6S? Irrelevant. It's 450$ cheaper.

 

[I7guy]

What exactly is innovative about OLD TECH? The whole point is missed again. It's OLD TECH. How can OLD TECH be state of the art?

Doesn't anyone study logic any more?

Sorry I think you missed the point. Apple is not old tech as you suggest; however if you believe that is the case, so be it. Innovation is the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods; touch id is a perfect example of old tech brought up to date. 64 bit on mobile phones is another example etc.

 

[1458279]

Sorry I think you missed the point. Apple is not old tech as you suggest; however if you believe that is the case, so be it. Innovation is the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods; touch id is a perfect example of old tech brought up to date. 64 bit on mobile phones is another example etc.

Who said "Apple is old tech"? I said iPT is old tech. BTW is touch id on the iPT ? iPT is old tech by Apple's own standards.

 

[1458279]

And yet even Brin one year old, comparing it to th crap phone you brought up is a disservice. You pay 50$ more and get performance for it. You're moving the goal posts to make Apple look bad. Stop it. Be intellectually honest. Use facts.

I mean, you're basically asking why Apple doesn't lose money on the iPT as a way of saying they're screwing iPT users while bringing up a phone that uses a crap processor.

Edit: In essence you're saying that the iPT, a 200$ device, is lacking compared to a 650$ device and patting yourself on the back. Is it outdated next to the 6S? Irrelevant. It's 450$ cheaper.

Who said anything about Apple losing money?
$450 cheaper is compared to the same company (Apple).
You know the phone listed is crap? Interesting, I thought it wasn't released yet, but somehow you've have one and have done an exhaustive analysis of it compared to the iPT. You found they it's a crap phone.

Enlighten us, where did it fail in the compare to the iPT?

Was it the extra storage, the print id, the phone, ... oh wait, the iPT doesn't have those things.

Display 1920x1080 vs 1136x640
Camera 13mp from Nexus6 vs 8mp
Ram 3g vs 1g
MicroSD up to 64g vs no MicroSD

What about the device made it crap?

Can you provide a link to this exhaustive comparative you did?

BTW, once again, you ignored the point. The iPT and Mini1/Mini3 were outdated when 1st released based on Apple's own standards. As far as sticking to facts, prove your 'fact' that this is a crap device.
http://www.xiaomitoday.com/bluboo-x...k-powered-smartphone-with-a-killer-price-tag/

 

[I7guy]

Who said "Apple is old tech"? I said iPT is old tech. BTW is touch id on the iPT ? iPT is old tech by Apple's own standards.

I'm using "apple" to mean the iphone. I don't believe the iphone is old tech. To each their own.

 

[1458279]

I'm using "apple" to mean the iphone. I don't believe the iphone is old tech. To each their own.

Ok, that's a different argument. I think Apple puts out a very good phone that seems to be right in line with the market. It's actually one part that makes the iPT worse because you KNOW Apple can make a better iPT. It used to be (years ago) the iPT was known as an iPhone without the phone.