Jaguar on newer 'unsupported' hardware

[Amethyst1]

(this is an updated version of this post I made in 2016.)

Thought I'd post my experience trying to run Jaguar on Macs that originally shipped with Panther.

Why Jaguar? It was the first version of Mac OS X I ever used and I do kinda prefer its look and feel to the somewhat more subdued look introduced with Panther. The Jaguar partition I deployed was set up in Mac-on-Linux and updated to 10.2.8.


(1) 12" PowerBook G4/1.5GHz (2005) | Model: PowerBook6,8 | Official minimum OS: 10.3.7

Working

- Keyboard
- NVidia GeForce FX Go5200: colour depth/resolution switching, graphics acceleration, Quartz Extreme, dual display support
- Display brightness adjustment on internal display and an ADC Cinema Display using slider in Monitors pref. pane and function keys
- USB (at 1.1 speeds): a mouse works
- FireWire: recognised in System Profiler
- AirPort Extreme: can see available networks, didn't try connecting due to no WPA2 support
- Bluetooth: pairing with mobile phone works
- Ethernet: recognised in System Profiler/Network pref. pane
- Modem: recognised in Network pref. pane
- CD/DVD reading
- Battery charging and monitoring

Not Working

- Trackpad (the 2005 PowerBooks dropped the ADB keyboard and trackpad for USB ones)
- CPU clock speed scaling (?)
- Sound
- Sleep (never wakes up again)
- Clamshell mode with external display: System freezes at the login window when I boot with the lid closed or close it while it's running
- Disc burning in Finder: "not supported" in System Profiler


(2) 12" PowerBook G4/1.33GHz (2004) | Model: PowerBook6,4 | Official minimum OS: 10.3.3

Working

- Keyboard
- Trackpad
- Sound including volume adjustment using function keys
- NVidia GeForce FX Go5200: colour depth/resolution switching, graphics acceleration, Quartz Extreme, dual display support
- Display brightness adjustment on internal display using slider in Monitors pref. pane and function keys
- USB (at 1.1 speeds): a mouse works
- FireWire: recognised in System Profiler
- AirPort Extreme: can see available networks, didn't try connecting due to no WPA2 support
- Bluetooth: pairing with mobile phone works
- Ethernet: recognised in System Profiler/Network pref. pane
- Modem: recognised in Network pref. pane
- CD/DVD reading
- Battery charging and monitoring

Not Working

- CPU clock speed scaling (?)
- Sleep (never wakes up again)
- Disc burning in Finder: "not supported" in System Profiler


(3) 12" iBook G4/800MHz (2003) | Model: PowerBook6,3 | Official minimum OS: 10.3

Working

- Keyboard
- Trackpad
- ATI Mobility Radeon 9200: colour depth/resolution switching, graphics acceleration, Quartz Extreme (dual display support not tested)
- Display brightness adjustment using slider in Monitors pref. pane and function keys
- USB (at 1.1 speeds): a mouse works
- FireWire: recognised in System Profiler
- AirPort Extreme: can see available networks, didn't try connecting due to no WPA2 support
- Ethernet: recognised in System Profiler/Network pref. pane
- Modem: recognised in Network pref. pane
- CD/DVD reading
- Disc burning in Finder: supported
- Battery charging and monitoring
- Sleep
- Sound including volume adjustment using function keys

Not Working

- CPU clock speed scaling (?)

I am surprised that this machine runs Jaguar almost perfectly, especially the Mobility Radeon 9200 which was not available in any Mac that came with Jaguar. (I know that the Radeon 9200 Mac Edition has drivers for 10.2.8. I did not install them. The original ATIRadeon8500.kext v1.2.26 is used.)

(4) 17" PowerBook G4/1.5GHz (2004) | Model: PowerBook5,5 | Official minimum OS: 10.3.3

Working

- Keyboard including backlight and backlight adjustment using function keys (with FN key held down)
- Trackpad
- ATI Mobility Radeon 9700: colour depth/resolution switching, graphics acceleration, Quartz Extreme, external DVI monitor
- Display brightness adjustment using slider in Monitors pref. pane and function keys (with FN key held down)
- USB: a mouse works
- FireWire: recognised in System Profiler
- AirPort Extreme: can see available networks, didn't try connecting due to no WPA2 support
- Ethernet: recognised in System Profiler/Network pref. pane
- Modem: recognised in Network pref. pane
- CD/DVD reading
- Battery charging and monitoring
- Sound including volume adjustment using function keys (with FN key held down)

Not Working

- CPU clock speed scaling (?)
- Disc burning in Finder
- Sleep (screen freezes)

(5) Mac mini G4/1.42GHz (2005) | Model: PowerMac10,2 | Official minimum OS: 10.3.7

Working

- USB (at 1.1 speeds): keyboard and mouse work
- FireWire: recognised in System Profiler
- Bluetooth: pairing with mobile phone works
- Ethernet: recognised in System Profiler/Network pref. pane
- Modem: recognised in Network pref. pane
- CD/DVD reading

Not Working

- ATI Radeon 9200: no colour depth/resolution switching, no Quartz Extreme
- Brightness adjustment on an ADC Cinema Display
- AirPort Extreme
- Sound
- Sleep
- Disc burning in Finder: "not supported" in System Profiler

I was surprised that Jaguar boots at all on a Mac mini... It keeps the colour depth and screen resolution set in a 'supported' version of Mac OS X so the graphics department basically boils down to having no acceleration or Quartz Extreme. I have tried adding the 9200's device ID (0x59621002) to 10.2.8's version of ATIRadeon8500.kext (1.2.26) which results in the extension being loaded but I still can't switch colour depth or resolution, it still reports an "Unknown Display" and Quartz Extreme is unavailable. The drivers for the Radeon 9200 Mac Edition install a newer version of the kext so I also tried adding the device ID to that one but the result is the same as with the original version of the kext.

Does anyone have a pointer how I might persuade the mini's 9200 to work in Jaguar?

 

[redheeler]

The newest hardware I've had Jaguar running on is a Power Mac G5 7,2 (dual-processor 2.0 GHz). Mine was manufactured in 2004 based on the serial number (meaning it shipped with 10.3 Panther originally) and is unsupported by the retail / normal version of Jaguar, but works fine with the special G5 build that only came on gray restore disks.

As far as I know none of the newer / more powerful G5s will run it, so this is as good as it gets for Jaguar with the classic pinstriped Aqua look.

 

[MagicBoy]

10.2.8 is hilariously quick on a 7,2 with an SSD!

 

[LightBulbFun]

very cool

I too have played with running various Mac OSs on newer Hardware then they where made for (I got 10.3.9 booting on a DLSD and Mac OS 8.6 on a Dual 1.42Ghz MDD for example on the same MDD I even booted 10.1.5 )

in terms of OS X versions 10.2.8 and lower, they have the advantage that they wlll boot on an unknown PowerPC CPU instead of just halting, (note this does not apply to the G5 build of 10.2.8 as that is when the bail on unknown CPU thing was added)

im not sure if you have noticed but click on about this mac on one of your 7447A Macs running jag and you will see it just says "PowerPC" no mention of type as it treats the 7447A the same way it treads 603/604s since it has no idea what they are just like it has no idea what a 7447A is. 10.2.8 will only recognise CPUs properly up to the regular 7447 (or the G5 970)

I have booted 10.2.8 on my iBook G4 (1.33Ghz 14 inch 2004) and was also surprised to find the Graphics card was supported properly. seeing as you used an 800Mhz iBook those use 7450s IIRC and that CPU is supported fully under 10.2.8 so you should have full speed control there.

the reason the Mac minis card does not work is because without getting into too many details is because, the Drivers included in 10.2.8 dont support the Mac minis video port layout (those funny names you sometimes see like ATY,RockHoper or ATY,Tracer play quite an important role but thats for an explanation for another time LOL) I have also booted 10.2.8 on my Mac mini G4 and have played with it a bit

The newest hardware I've had Jaguar running on is a Power Mac G5 7,2 (dual-processor 2.0 GHz). Mine was manufactured in 2004 based on the serial number (meaning it shipped with 10.3 Panther originally) and is unsupported by the retail / normal version of Jaguar, but works fine with the special G5 build that only came on gray restore disks.

As far as I know none of the newer / more powerful G5s will run it, so this is as good as it gets for Jaguar with the classic pinstriped Aqua look.

Some PowerMac7,3 models shipped with PowerPC 970 CPUs (not 970FXs) and as such can boot the 10.2.8 G5 build but fan control does not work and as such the fans race to max, my 2Ghz June 2004 is one such model with regular 970s that will happily boot 10.2.8 G5

 

[air78]

I am trying to find gray disks of 10.2.7 6R55, because the retail build taken from the PearPC disk image updated to 10.2.8 hangs OS X on classic mode.

 

[MagicBoy]

Have a look on Macintosh Garden. There's a person there who posts most restore media from that period on request.

 

[air78]

Yes, i was looked macintoshgarden. There is only Powermac G5 and Imac G4 flat panel build, which i am not shure that will run on my powerbook. But in general the situation is the same like wrote topic starter, retail build Jaguar work almost fine except classic environment which is need the special gray disks for Powerbook FW800.

 

[weckart]

Yes, i was looked macintoshgarden. There is only Powermac G5 and Imac G4 flat panel build, which i am not shure that will run on my powerbook. But in general the situation is the same like wrote topic starter, retail build Jaguar work almost fine except classic environment which is need the special gray disks for Powerbook FW800.

There is someone on the MG forum who has a ton of system disks, which he uploads to MG on request. Might be worth looking there to see if he has what you need.

 

[MagicBoy]

There is someone on the MG forum who has a ton of system disks, which he uploads to MG on request. Might be worth looking there to see if he has what you need.

Yeah, he obviously hasn't found the post. I saw the list and got him to upload the DLSD recovery media for me. The 10.2.7 media was on the list ... I've seen it!

I can't post a straight link here as I really don't fancy a ban.

 

[weckart]

Yeah, he obviously hasn't found the post. I saw the list and got him to upload the DLSD recovery media for me. The 10.2.7 media was on the list ... I've seen it!

I can't post a straight link here as I really don't fancy a ban.

You could have asked me for that. I have the DLSD discs.

 

[Jubadub]

The newest hardware I've had Jaguar running on is a Power Mac G5 7,2 (dual-processor 2.0 GHz). Mine was manufactured in 2004 based on the serial number (meaning it shipped with 10.3 Panther originally) and is unsupported by the retail / normal version of Jaguar, but works fine with the special G5 build that only came on gray restore disks.

As far as I know none of the newer / more powerful G5s will run it, so this is as good as it gets for Jaguar with the classic pinstriped Aqua look.

Could you get 3D Acceleration with that G5 under Jaguar? If so, that's absolutely delicious.

 

[redheeler]

Could you get 3D Acceleration with that G5 under Jaguar? If so, that's absolutely delicious.

Yes, it had acceleration on the Radeon 9600 Pro.

 

[Jubadub]

Nice!

the reason the Mac minis card does not work is because without getting into too many details is because, the Drivers included in 10.2.8 dont support the Mac minis video port layout (those funny names you sometimes see like ATY,RockHoper or ATY,Tracer play quite an important role but thats for an explanation for another time LOL) I have also booted 10.2.8 on my Mac mini G4 and have played with it a bit

I'd love to hear more about that, if possible.

 

[felipeerojasm]

It would be nice to have Mac OS X Jaguar on the DLSD PowerBooks! Maybe that's impossible.
I tried to do that, but it restarted on boot showing only the apple logo. I don't have the required knowledge for getting it functional.
It is possible to have Mac OS X Panther on the PowerBook G4 5,8 instead??

 

[Amethyst1]

It would be nice to have Mac OS X Jaguar on the DLSD PowerBooks! Maybe that's impossible.
I tried to do that, but it restarted on boot showing only the apple logo. I don't have the required knowledge for getting it functional.

I tried to boot Jaguar 10.2.8 on my SLSD and it panicked with a garbled screen - it doesn't support the Radeon 9700 and I presume this to be the cause for the panic. I haven't looked further into it yet.
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It is possible to have Mac OS X Panther on the PowerBook G4 5,8 instead??

A fully updated Panther 10.3.9 will boot on a DLSD (@LightBulbFun did it) but it's extremely unstable.

 

[felipeerojasm]

I tried to boot Jaguar 10.2.8 on my SLSD and it panicked with a garbled screen - it doesn't support the Radeon 9700 and I presume this to be the cause for the panic. I haven't looked further into it yet.
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A fully updated Panther 10.3.9 will boot on a DLSD (@LightBulbFun did it) but it's extremely unstable.

Well, I think I should get a Jaguar compatible Mac.

 

[tajmahal]

Hi!

Does anyone happen to know if there is any Mac that can run Jaguar and drive a display with a 2560 x 1440 resolution at 60 Hz? (A little lower than a 30" Cinema Display, which has 2560 x 1600. I guess you still need dual-link DVI support for it to work, though.)

My 15" PB G4 (1,25 GHz, the latest one that originally came with Jaguar) will output that resolution, but only at 30 Hz, which is rather painful, or alternatively 1920 x 1080 at 60 Hz, which is also painful ...

I have tried to find out whether any of the early PowerMac G5s is capable of that, but I am not sure which graphics cards exactly support it, and if they need something newer than Jaguar in order to work. Has anyone had success with a combination like that? Or with any other Mac?

 

[Amethyst1]

2560×1440 at 41 Hz is possible via single-link DVI using CVT-RB timings (42.5 Hz using CVT-RB v2) if you can fully “exploit” the 165 MHz pixel clock limit. I find this just about bearable.

UPDATE: The Radeon 9600 Mac & PC Edition has dual-link DVI and might work with Jaguar (the “normal” Radeon 9600 does). I've not personally tested this though so it's theoretical.

 

[LightBulbFun]

UPDATE: The Radeon 9600 Mac & PC Edition has dual-link DVI and might work with Jaguar (it supports the 9600). I've not personally tested this though so it's theoretical.

I have a 9600 Mac and PC edition that came with one of my 1.42Ghz MDDs

I should give it a try under 10.2.8 and see what happens

I do know OOB it wont work (in-fact no OS X version works OOB with the 9600 PC/Mac edition, because it lacks a built in NDRV so requires the external one of the ATI Displays installer)

but it will be interesting to see what it does with that installer, however it only handle NDRV related things

and does not install any GPU acceleration related drivers, and I know the 9600 XT (G5 OEM card to my June 2004 PM G5 2Ghz) did not have its device ID in 10.2.8's drivers so had no acceleration and would kernel panic if I added its device ID to the Radeon drivers in 10.2.8

so I fear the PC and Mac edition may do the same thing sadly

 

[Amethyst1]

so I fear the PC and Mac edition may do the same thing sadly

Thanks for providing that info. Seems Jaguar and dual-link DVI aren't meant to go together then LOL.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Thanks for providing that info. Seems Jaguar and dual-link DVI aren't meant to go together then LOL.

you could quite likely get resolution change etc but you just wont have any acceleration etc sadly

 

[tajmahal]

2560x1440 at 40 Hz is possible via single-link if you can fully exploit the 165 MHz pixel clock limit, which I find just about bearable.

How would I set the refresh rate to 40 Hz? In System Preferences, I can only select 30 Hz for that resolution. And for lower resolutions, it only gives me 30 and 60 Hz to select as well, but nothing in-between.
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you could quite likely get resolution change etc but you just wont have any acceleration etc sadly

Would be awesome if you could try that.

Would having no acceleration make a difference at all when using just standard apps without any special 3D/OpenGL stuff? Would rendering regular windows and UI elements be slower as well?

 

[Amethyst1]

How would I set the refresh rate to 40 Hz?

You need to define a custom mode for your monitor in OS X. SwitchResX will do this but it requires Tiger. However, all it does is create an EDID override file that needs to be added to Jaguar for the mode to show up there.

 

[repairedCheese]

Has anyone managed to get around whatever checks the G5 version of Jaguar has in its installer? I'd be very interested to see it running on even newer hardware, and it thinks my PMG5 is too new. If it's going to fail, I'd much rather see the errors in person.

 

[tajmahal]

You need to define a custom mode for your monitor in OS X. SwitchResX will do this but it requires Tiger. However, all it does is create an EDID override file that needs to be added to Jaguar for the mode to show up there.

That's an awesome idea, but unfortunately, I couldn't get it to work.

The last version of SwitchResX to support Jaguar seems to be 3.3.3, which doesn't yet support the "reduced blanking" stuff when setting up timing parameters, so I couldn't get the OS to accept any of my attempted 40 Hz configurations with that.

Next, I installed Leopard on an external FW drive and ran the last PPC version of SwitchResX available (4.3.6). This one supports reduced blanking, and I could thus actually make the OS load a 40 Hz (and even a 41 Hz) configuration. But it seems that my monitor (a 27" Eizo EV2736W) can't deal with these refresh rates. As soon as I select one of these refresh rates in OS X, the monitor becomes black and displays a "DVI signal error" overlay.

So there's no way to make this work after all, it seems. Or did I miss something?