Jony Ive’s vision was killed today

[the8thark]

Right, but you didn't say that YOU don't want to speak for others.

I will continue to "speak for others" and convey my experiences and the observations I make. I am comfortable conveying and linking my experiences and observations to patterns and even expound on how it might be even broader than what I can easily or tangibly know. I also am comfortable enough with how I view the world not to worry I am being too myopic or dismissive of other ways that things might be done. My friends, the people who I am speaking for BTW, will make sure to give me feedback if I "go off the rails" and start thinking the world does or should operate the way I do.

Thank you for your reply.

Neither of us should be speaking “for” the broader professional community.
You have said you will keep doing this and that is ok. Freedom of speech and all. However, you will be called out on it. No different to how you are calling out me as well.

The only thing we both can objectively say is, the sales will determine how well the M1 Pro ports were received by professionals. Also if there is enough blacklash to them, Apple will make changes for the M2 Pro level MBPs.

We agree to disagree and that is fine. Thanks again, for the chat and for sharing your setup.

 

[Arsenikdote]

The only thing we both can objectively say is, the sales will determine how well the M1 Pro ports were received by professionals. Also if there is enough blacklash to them, Apple will make changes for the M2 Pro level MBPs.

It's a whole new world we live in with Apple actually adding ports back in and brining back MagSafe. Before I would have said our desires/complaints and/or sales would have nothing to do with how Apple moved ahead. But now, maybe it matters more than before and there might be some sway in how the new machines turn out!

I for one am happy if the larger professional community sways how the machines turn out, even if it isn't the greatest for my setup. My reasoning behind this is the larger community is likely going to have similar thoughts on the big stuff. If I like 80% of it and dislike 20%, that is still 80%!!! If the speed increase (if it matches what Apple says), in this round of updates, is all I would have received...I would be one happy camper!! Honestly the rest of it is SOOOOO secondary!

 

[flapflapflap]

Confirming the new design is bulbous and ugly.

 

[Falhófnir]

Confirming the new design is bulbous and ugly.

The design certainly makes them look every mm as thick as they are (possibly more!) and unlike the previous models they aren't indisputably attractive computers. Controversial (as opposed to aesthetically pleasing) seems to be a design element Apple is using more of lately though so I'd say prepare to see even more of it to come.

 

[Krevnik]

No, i mena TB4. It have DisplayPort 2.0 support ether one lane 40Gbps and 3x 6k screens with DSC and 40Gbps for data.
Edit: or 80Gbps of display port only for ether more screens or without DSC

Thunderbolt 3 provides two bi-directional 20 Gbps channels, providing a total of 40 Gbps outbound and 40 Gbps inbound.
It’s 4 lanes of PCI Express 3.0 (32.4 Gbit/s) for general-purpose data transfer, and 8 lanes of DisplayPort HBR2 (34.56 Gbit/s) for video, but the maximum combined data rate cannot exceed 40 Gbit/s

But Thunderbolt 4 provides two bi-directional 40 Gbps channels, providing a total of 40 Gbps outbound and 40 Gbps inbound.
This allows you to use a combined data+display output of 80Gbps.
This wasn’t possible before. This is why apple XDR pro can only receive 40Gbps in screen and output USB2 speeds back.

Do you have any evidence of this claim about TB4? Intel’s docs don’t agree at all.

According to Intel’s docs TB4 doesn’t add any bandwidth, but rather sets more stringent certification requirements above what TB3 required. Specifically, it requires tech that helps prevent DMA-based security attacks, the port has to be a full 40Gbps port, not a passive 20Gbps port, and requires that the port support DisplayPort 1.4 rather than 1.2 (specifically it must support dual 4K displays at 60Hz). These are all things Apple has been doing (for the most part) for years with TB3. TB4 isn’t a big change for Mac users, other than maybe how Intel I guess gave Apple their blessing on using the trademark despite not using Intel VT-d to block DMA attacks.

TB5 is what doubles the bandwidth up to a total 80Gbps over the wire, and that’s still very much a draft thing.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Do you have any evidence of this claim about TB4? Intel’s docs don’t agree at all.

According to Intel’s docs TB4 doesn’t add any bandwidth, but rather sets more stringent certification requirements above what TB3 required. Specifically, it requires tech that helps prevent DMA-based security attacks, the port has to be a full 40Gbps port, not a passive 20Gbps port, and requires that the port support DisplayPort 1.4 rather than 1.2 (specifically it must support dual 4K displays at 60Hz). These are all things Apple has been doing (for the most part) for years with TB3. TB4 isn’t a big change for Mac users, other than maybe how Intel I guess gave Apple their blessing on using the trademark despite not using Intel VT-d to block DMA attacks.

TB5 is what doubles the bandwidth up to a total 80Gbps over the wire, and that’s still very much a draft thing.

It’s stated specifically in the TB4 specifications as it contains DP2.0 and USB 4.0. And it’s 40Gbps Bidirectional, as in 40Gbit one way, and 40Gbit the other way.

Thunderbolt 4 includes support for DisplayPort 2.0, allowing it to power up to three 10K monitors at the same time, or one 16K monitor at 60Hz. Using both channels with 80Gbps total speed.

With thunderbolt 3 it was caped at display port 1.2/4 depending on controllers used
And why only one 6k display was supported for one port.

 

[Grohowiak]

I say finally!
The form/thickness obsession was really crap for people that wanted performance.

 

[Krevnik]

It’s stated specifically in the TB4 specifications as it contains DP2.0 and USB 4.0. And it’s 40Gbps Bidirectional, as in 40Gbit one way, and 40Gbit the other way.

Thunderbolt 4 includes support for DisplayPort 2.0, allowing it to power up to three 10K monitors at the same time, or one 16K monitor at 60Hz. Using both channels with 80Gbps total speed.

With thunderbolt 3 it was caped at display port 1.2/4 depending on controllers used
And why only one 6k display was supported for one port.

I’d take Intel’s documentation over TrippLite’s documentation on Thunderbolt specs. https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...upgrade-gaming-accessories-thunderbolt-4.html

Intel explicitly states: Thunderbolt 4 ports have the same high-speed 40Gbps bandwidth as Thunderbolt™ 3. However, minimum PCIe data requirements have increased from 16Gbps to 32Gbps. This means that high-speed external PCIe devices like storage and external graphics could see significant increases in transfer rates and performance.

Note that Thunderbolt 3 was also capable of 32Gbps PCIe, but it wasn’t required to implement it.

I also notice you:
A) Don’t link to the page you took a screenshot of.
B) Don’t include the part of the page that states the Thunderbolt 4 specs, because they don’t agree with your claims: https://www.tripplite.com/products/thunderbolt-4

Note that even TrippLite states 40Gbps for TB4, and 8K @ 60Hz, which is DP 1.4 with DSC. TB4 bumps the required DisplayPort requirement to 1.4, and clearly also requires DSC support.

To talk to the screenshot you made: TrippLite made a couple of omissions, which can be confusing to an average reader not familiar with Thunderbolt, but are super important for conveying the information accurately.

First, Thunderbolt 3 and 4 as available on the market are a single 40Gbps full duplex connection. That’s it. While the cable was originally reported by anandtech as being able to carry two channels, it’s not used in either TB3 or 4. It’s possible that this second PHY channel is what will allow TB5 to deliver 80Gbps, but for now, both TB3 and 4 are a single connection. So for TrippLite to use the discussion they did, is misleading at best.

As for DisplayPort mode, things get a bit more complicated. For DisplayPort 2.0, it uses the Thunderbolt 3 PHY layer to reach the 80Gbps needed. Which means it has to be using both channels in the cable. However, Intel’s current TB4 controllers are DP1.4a compliant: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-thunderbolt-4-controller/specifications.html, meaning even though DP 2.0 can be carried over a Thunderbolt 3 active cable, the chips required to handle the alt mode aren’t (yet) here. But with Intel releasing GPUs with DP 2.0 support “Soon(tm)”, I suspect the controller chips can’t be far off either.

 

[Melbourne Park]

Confirming the new design is bulbous and ugly.

Except that he liked the new shape!

Tapered notebooks are a bad idea. For many reasons: cooling restrictions, port placement, damage in your overhead plane's locker (the thick part of the notebook takes all the weight), strength, weight (to achieve the same strength), stiffness, screen unfolding design. My tapered Aug update 2017 MBP's shape is a failure. I'm looking forward to getting something that has far less compromises in it, just because they are thinner. Which adds absolutely nothing if it
is tapered. The curious thing about the old shape, was that the computer looked like a Windows 13" notebook from a far. Who cares about that? The art form in notebooks is reflected by their performance, usefulness and their longevity, but not by making them look somehow different to what they really are.

 

[Suxamethonium]

For a bit of a perspective on size and form factor it certainly is fatter than a 13" Air, but it isn't massive in comparison. I put it in the sleeve I was using with my 13" Air, which was a little loose on it, but is a comfortable fit for the 14". I find it aesthetically pleasing, its not the sleek lines of the previous generation, but its not a utilitarian black plastic box like most Windows laptops.

It is very much reminiscent of the first generation MBP, and the PowerBook G4 (though nowhere near as thick as those). Maybe I like it a bit more because when I was in uni and using a white iBook I dreamt of having a Titanium PowerBook instead.

 

[childu]

Thank you Jony for your remarkable vision. It was really inspiring and Apple wouldn’t exist today without you. Your devices’ aesthetic pleasure are unmatched!
I still remember the day I held the iPhone 4 for the first time, I thought: this comes from the future. That device was a complete revolution in industrial design.

 

[thenewperson]

Thank you Jony for your remarkable vision. It was really inspiring and Apple wouldn’t exist today without you. Your devices’ aesthetic pleasure are unmatched!
I still remember the day I held the iPhone 4 for the first time, I thought: this comes from the future. That device was a complete revolution in industrial design.

Yeah, but it was thinner than the last phone so it was actually bad.

 

[matrix07]

Thank you Jony for your remarkable vision. It was really inspiring and Apple wouldn’t exist today without you. Your devices’ aesthetic pleasure are unmatched!
I still remember the day I held the iPhone 4 for the first time, I thought: this comes from the future. That device was a complete revolution in industrial design.

No doubt Jony Ive is one of the best but left unchecked for product design, not "design" design, at a period he thought he ruled the world it's just disaster.

On The Much Improved State of Macintosh Hardware

It took awhile, but Apple has righted the Mac hardware ship.

weblog.rogueamoeba.com

I’m not sure who exactly deserves the credit at Apple for all these improvements, but my hat is off to you, whoever you are...

Whoever it is, I’m guessing their name doesn’t rhyme with “Ronnie Five”.

 

[jjcs]

Yeah, but it was thinner than the last phone so it was actually bad.

Design must be tempered by the reality of utility.

 

[thenewperson]

Design must be tempered by the reality of utility.

Thanks, had no idea.

 

[Varmann]

I remember when I got a MB Air 2010.
Incredible thin and light, I could use a slightly lined A4 envelope as a case when I was traveling (and I did).
Pity I usually had to bring along a sizable mess of dongles and chargers.

For me portability includes everything you need to bring along. More ports, less dongles, slightly heavier laptop, less need for charging during long day trips.

A laptop is a compromise, no matter what.
I hope this is a sign that the range between MB models will increase.
Very lightweight 12", rather heavy 16" with as many ports as possible, and some inbetween.

 

[senttoschool]

No doubt Jony Ive is one of the best but left unchecked for product design, not "design" design, at a period he thought he ruled the world it's just disaster.

On The Much Improved State of Macintosh Hardware

It took awhile, but Apple has righted the Mac hardware ship.

weblog.rogueamoeba.com

He basically tried to turn Apple to make his idealist vision of what the world should be: basically everyone is a rich white guy designer.

Anyone who's ever worked with these types of designers knows it's really bad to leave them unchecked. You have to have a strong product person above this kind of designer or they will go way too far.

 

[jjcs]

Thanks, had no idea.

I was basically agreeing with you.

 

[HylianKnight]

There comes a point where you have to stop sacrificing function for form. This new MacBook Pro offers a good balance between those elements imo.

 

[Melbourne Park]

Looking at my 2017 MBP, I reckon Ives and the rest of that team, got sucked too much into the fashion of the time, and their vision of technological obsolescence was wrong.

Strategically, they were successful though - and after all, strategy is not a design realm. They were followed a strategic desire to differentiated their product.

But - they got things wrong. We should remember some failures of timing, and while IBM's OS/2 has lots of problems (inc the 80826 compatibility disaster) I recall the key issue was its need for RAM at time when RAM was super expensive. OS2 could have been a good product, but the timing was not appropriate.

And now that Apple have re-introduced the Magsafe power supply and HDMI and a card port, it just shows that Apple's prediction of USB-Type C and Thunderbolt's Display port tech, was not timely, and also, they've now realised that the other ports were still desired, they were still needed, 5 years later. Chrysler's Jet car could of been a great thing ...

 

[JMacHack]

I’d like to interject to say that we have no idea how much Jony Ive was involved with this project. When he left Apple, they did say that they would continue to contract him for design, right?

I know personally part of being an artist is re-evaluating yourself often. Maybe Jony realized he went too far with the 2016 redesign and wanted to rectify that.

Maybe someone higher up stepped in and said “fix it”

As an owner of a 2016 mbp, I get the Jony hate. But I’m willing to play devils advocate here.

 

[MrTSolar]

The epitome of that vision was the 2015 12” inch MacBook, super thin with only one usb-c port. One could argue that it was a visionary device ahead of its time but that the path was indicated.

As a previous owner of one of these, the single port crippled that machine. It was a herculean task just to accomplish ONE time machine backup, let alone continuous ones. Kept having to stop, eject the drive, and charge the battery so it could keep going. My 2020 Air is way more functional with 2 ports. Thank God Apple snapped out of the minimal ports phase.

The 12" MacBook is back in my possession at the moment because it will no longer charge. The port is worn out and needs replaced.

 

[childu]

As a previous owner of one of these, the single port crippled that machine. It was a herculean task just to accomplish ONE time machine backup, let alone continuous ones. Kept having to stop, eject the drive, and charge the battery so it could keep going. My 2020 Air is way more functional with 2 ports. Thank God Apple snapped out of the minimal ports phase.

The 12" MacBook is back in my possession at the moment because it will no longer charge. The port is worn out and needs replaced.

Yeah two ports should have been the minimum but I use the adapter with one usbc one usba and one hdmi from Apple. My time machine backups are with the time capsule and it’s wireless

 

[nigelbb]

WHy would you buy the MacBook when you have the 13" MacBook Air?

Because the 12" MacBook is thinner & lighter than the 13" MacBook Air. The fact that it's low powered is irrelevant to those who use it for web browsing, email, MS Word etc as it's plenty powerful enough for these uses.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Because the 12" MacBook is thinner & lighter than the 13" MacBook Air. The fact that it's low powered is irrelevant to those who use it for web browsing, email, MS Word etc as it's plenty powerful enough for these uses.

Quite literally a irrelevant difference you gain from the battery life but with no need to have a power brick with you.

An iPad are lighter and smaller with a keyboard case than the MacBook could ever be.