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T-Bob

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2013
676
365
Quite literally a irrelevant difference you gain from the battery life but with no need to have a power brick with you.

An iPad are lighter and smaller with a keyboard case than the MacBook could ever be.

First gen Ipad 12.9” and smart keyboard was same weight or heavier than macbook if I remember correctly, had both at one time. Seems current combination is just over 1kg, so yeah its heavier than Macbook which was under 1kg. Definitely much more portable than Air is, or was.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,632
2,548
Scandinavia
First gen Ipad 12.9” and smart keyboard was same weight or heavier than macbook if I remember correctly, had both at one time. Seems current combination is just over 1kg, so yeah its heavier than Macbook which was under 1kg. Definitely much more portable than Air is, or was.
Or the iPad mini, iPad Pro or iPad Air.
Could have had any third party keyboard solutions with less weight.

Honestly I’d say the weight of the backpack is more a problem than anything that weighs around 1kg is redundant as always portable. And if you have a problem with such low weioid say you have other healthy problems to care about first
 

nigelbb

macrumors 65816
Dec 22, 2012
1,148
273
Quite literally a irrelevant difference you gain from the battery life but with no need to have a power brick with you.

An iPad are lighter and smaller with a keyboard case than the MacBook could ever be.
An iPad with a keyboard is no alternative to a proper laptop. I occasionally use my wife's 12" MacBook & think it's fantastic. The MacBook Air is nice but noticeably heavier.
 

katewes

macrumors 6502
Jun 7, 2007
465
146
Who would risk buying a 2nd hand Mac with butterfly keyboard, prone to break, that is out of Apple's warranty for repair? I suspect the butterfly Macs won't hold their resale value as well as previous generations, particularly with the Apple Silicon transition.

I managed to keep using my pre-butterfly MacBook Pro and couple of MacBook Airs until the insanity had passed.
 

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
In my dream universe, the clamshell G3 iBook returns in the form of a special anniversary limited edition M2 MBA. I would buy one instantly.
I think it’s unfortunate that Ive is only associated with the minimalistic sheet-of-glass-and-metal period here. The fact that people think his vision is compromised by the presence of an SD-card slot is a bit sad. I submit this as another example of Jony Ive at Apple.

I used this for years, and then my elderly parents did for almost as long. We all loved it.
 

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matram

macrumors 6502a
Sep 18, 2011
781
416
Sweden
Who would risk buying a 2nd hand Mac with butterfly keyboard, prone to break, that is out of Apple's warranty for repair? I suspect the butterfly Macs won't hold their resale value as well as previous generations, particularly with the Apple Silicon transition.

I managed to keep using my pre-butterfly MacBook Pro and couple of MacBook Airs until the insanity had passed.
The trade in value I was offered for my maxed out 2016 15" in 2018 was about 20% of the original price even though I had a the top case replaced on warranty with the newer 2017 keyboard. Needless to say I held on to it and it still works nicely as a secondary MBP running betas.

When moving back and forth between the 2016 and 2019 I hardly notice the difference in keyboards.

My personal opinion is that the keyboard thing was blown a little bit out of proportion.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,632
2,548
Scandinavia
The trade in value I was offered for my maxed out 2016 15" in 2018 was about 20% of the original price even though I had a the top case replaced on warranty with the newer 2017 keyboard. Needless to say I held on to it and it still works nicely as a secondary MBP running betas.

When moving back and forth between the 2016 and 2019 I hardly notice the difference in keyboards.

My personal opinion is that the keyboard thing was blown a little bit out of proportion.
It wasn’t overblown. It was a compromise with zero benefits, a change without meaning. The butterfly keyboard introduced a solution to a problem nobody had. And they introduced a problem nobody knew was even a potential problem.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,632
2,548
Scandinavia
An iPad with a keyboard is no alternative to a proper laptop. I occasionally use my wife's 12" MacBook & think it's fantastic. The MacBook Air is nice but noticeably heavier.
Well. If you need a proper laptop then weight is one fact you can’t escape. It’s metal and have a big battery.

Would you rather have the MacBook Air with 20h battery life and leave the powerbrick at home or the MacBook with 12h battery life and need to Cary a clunky power brick around?
 

thirdkind

macrumors regular
Oct 20, 2005
109
26
Columbus
For anyone not happy with the port situation, I get that, but I come at it from the opposite side of the spectrum; I'm constantly handed USB-A devices and hate hunting for the dongle (or leaving it awkwardly attached all the time), so I'd be happy to have a USB-A port in place of that third USB-C port. I think of the right side of the machine as the legacy side :)

If anything, we should ask Apple why they decide to omit ports in exchange for others when there seems to be plenty of space to just add more ports.

Anyone complaining about thickness or weight can buy an Air. Nobody who needs these machines to perform at peak capacity is complaining about less heat and fan noise (which will hopefully translate into greater long-term reliability) paired with more battery life—and even if they are complaining, if they truly need the machine, they're going to buy it regardless.
 
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RetroDan

macrumors regular
Dec 17, 2015
112
149
Michigan
I think it’s unfortunate that Ive is only associated with the minimalistic sheet-of-glass-and-metal period here. The fact that people think his vision is compromised by the presence of an SD-card slot is a bit sad. I submit this as another example of Jony Ive at Apple.

I used this for years, and then my elderly parents did for almost as long. We all loved it.
Well, you have to realize that most individuals will only ever be remembered by their 'last thing' that they did. People have a way of living in the 'now' and using the immediate past to make judgements of others. I think it's safe to say that Ive had a wonderful, momentous heyday of design, but that heyday ended about a decade ago. We, consumers, have been becoming more and more discontent with his designs and offerings, and it became rather apparent that he was still trying to push design envelopes, but in ways that didn't change (fundamentally) his subjectively best designs.

For the portables, that meant that his unibody series began to emphasize the "ultimate" design language of portables - ie, that they be as light and as thin as possible. For reasons that are not entirely clear, form began to take preference over function, and not in a trivial way where one could say "Oh, sure, there's a bit of tradeoff but look what you get in return". No...we were presented with extremely thin laptops, which was cool, which were then stuffed to the gills with high tech, which was also cool, but the marriage turned those thin laptops into ball-scorching, battery-charge-murdering, ******-keyboard-having nightmares. And all this at premium prices.

In addition, desktops largely got ignored aside from minor component upgrades, and Soldergate turned what was once a fun upgrade path from minimal specs to better than top-end into the walliest walled garden philosophy of "buy it at the specs you think you might need, because **** all the aftermarket upgraders". And when innovation in the desktop line did come through, it was in weird ways that nobody really wanted (iMac Pro? So, it's like a 2012 cMP, only with some better processor and GPU options and way the **** worse thermals and a very minor upgrade path). Let's not forget about the aptly-nicknamed 'Trash Can' 2013 Mac Pro. It's like they didn't learn anything from the G4 Cube debacle. Proprietary hardware on a 'pro' device? Are you kidding me?! Having the sheer audacity to design a metaphorical dead end evolutionary path and casually slap 'Pro' onto the end was insulting to every workstation user who relied on PCI-E hardware devices for their livelihoods. In one fell swoop, Apple alienated practically every Audio and Visual professional in the business...which was a huge percentage of their business.

All of these changes were either created by or presented to Jony Ive, who gave 'em a thumbs-up.

It's not that Ive wasn't a genius who had, and has, a remarkable talent for aesthetics that will catch the eye favorably, but rather that his most recent designs for proper computers are pretty much just him metaphorically wanking himself off on his own brilliance, never mind that these are supposed to be more than pretty paperweights.
 

nigelbb

macrumors 65816
Dec 22, 2012
1,148
273
Well. If you need a proper laptop then weight is one fact you can’t escape. It’s metal and have a big battery.

Would you rather have the MacBook Air with 20h battery life and leave the powerbrick at home or the MacBook with 12h battery life and need to Cary a clunky power brick around?
Who on earth goes out with their laptop & 12 hours battery life isn't enough? She uses it around the house mostly. She does take it with us when we travel & she doesn't use the power brick but she does carry it in her rucksack because if we are away from home for a week or two she will need the power brick. Even with a 20 hour battery you will need to take the power brick if you are away from home for a week or two. It's no big deal to carry a "clunky power brick". It's half the size of the one for my 2014 MacBook Pro.

The routine is to put the MacBook on charge every night & it never needs to be charge during the day because she never uses it for 12 hours the next day. Who does? If you have MacBook Air with a 20 battery life I bet you put it on charger every night just so you no it is fully charged in the morning.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68030
May 2, 2021
2,632
2,548
Scandinavia
Who on earth goes out with their laptop & 12 hours battery life isn't enough? She uses it around the house mostly. She does take it with us when we travel & she doesn't use the power brick but she does carry it in her rucksack because if we are away from home for a week or two she will need the power brick. Even with a 20 hour battery you will need to take the power brick if you are away from home for a week or two. It's no big deal to carry a "clunky power brick". It's half the size of the one for my 2014 MacBook Pro.

The routine is to put the MacBook on charge every night & it never needs to be charge during the day because she never uses it for 12 hours the next day. Who does? If you have MacBook Air with a 20 battery life I bet you put it on charger every night just so you no it is fully charged in the morning.
Funny thing is no I don’t put on charge every day. I charge it mostly like my phone, every few days. And I use a GaN charger instead to charge both my i devices and mac
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
There’s no doubt whatsoever that we have a lot to thank Johnny for. He was instrumental in turning Apple into the company it is now post-Jobs return. But, we’re not all going to agree on where his more recent visions were going.

Up front, I love the new (old) design. And as someone who wants, no, no, no, needed the return of some ports to cut down on the ridiculous tangle of dongles in my bag, I’m particularly glad to see those. And the return of F-Keys over the TouchBar, which I hated with a vengeance (mainly because it was in replacement of, rather than in addition to the keys).

But that aside, the overreaching obsession with making things ever smaller and lighter was getting ridiculous. As someone who benefits from better performance, better battery life and loves the almost silent operation. The new MacBook Pro is a triumph to me.

We’ll never all agree and that’s good, god help us if we were all the same. But Apple has now transitioned back to how things were quite a few years ago. Thin and light laptops for those that want them, in the form of the MBA and 13” MBP. And larger, more powerful workhorses, for those who need them in the 14 and 16” MBP. As far as I’m concerned, this is the best laptop lineup Apple has had for a really long time and I couldn’t be happier - but that’s just me.
 

nigelbb

macrumors 65816
Dec 22, 2012
1,148
273
I loved my 17"....dearly...used it until 1 year ago. Oh that keyboard and the big ole screen.
I loved my 17" too. I stopped using it 4-5 years ago but it was in use by my stepson until a couple of years ago. I just looked up the specifications. My 2008 MBP weighed 3kg so the new 16" MBP at 2.1-2.2kg is considerably lighter.
 

nigelbb

macrumors 65816
Dec 22, 2012
1,148
273
Funny thing is no I don’t put on charge every day. I charge it mostly like my phone, every few days. And I use a GaN charger instead to charge both my i devices and mac
You can't use your phone much. My iPhone 12 Max Pro needs charging every day. It's much easier to have a regular routine of charging both iPhone & laptop overnight every day whether they need it or not instead of needing to keep an eye on battery level.
 

childu

macrumors member
Original poster
Dec 27, 2011
60
84
In his interview with Anne Wintour he specified that he is still working with “his friends at Apple “
 

kpluck

macrumors regular
Oct 8, 2018
151
493
Sacramento
The sleek and elegant chassis is lost.
The problem is "sleek and elegant" ceases to be such, IMHO, when it starts negatively affecting usability for a product's intended purpose and much of Apple's products crossed that line awhile ago under Ive.

I am not buying artwork when I buy a computer or a phone, I am buying a tool although I certainly understand others feel differently. To each, their own.

-kp
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,615
5,438
In his interview with Anne Wintour he specified that he is still working with “his friends at Apple “
He doesn't have nearly the same pull as he once did. Internal employees can always override agencies. Also, he's no longer a Chief level executive at product design which means he can no longer push his ideas down to the lower-level designers.
 
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torontotim

macrumors 6502
Jul 29, 2019
265
468
JI still does work for Apple and its going to be seriously funny, like spit-coffee-on-my-keyboard funny, if he designed the new MBPs.
Of course he was involved to one degree or another. These machines were designed years ago - there is a roadmap for products and it takes loads of time to develop/modify the manufacturing tooling and lines to build these things.

Apple knows conceptually what the next generation of MacBook looks like already. You can bet Jony and his team had a lot to do with the current Pros, the upcoming Air and everything else Apple releases in the next 12-24 months, even if he wasn't still working as an employee.

This was made clear the day they announced his departure. Apple was LoveFrom's first account.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,815
2,999
According to this handy bandwidth calculator (murideo.com), 10k@60 Hz/10 bits/4:4:4 requires 26.73 Gbps with DSC. Yes, DP 2.0 is 80 Gbps. But does the M1's TB4 support this? I'd be surprised. And if it doesn't, i.e., if it's limited to TB4's standard 40 Gbps, you would only be able to drive one 10k, not three.

Thunderbolt is 40Gbps per direction when its bidirectional and 80Gbps when its unidirectional (DisplayPort Alt Mode)
Thanks for the explanation. Do the M1 Pro/Max support DP Alt Mode 2?

Yes the TB4 standard have DP2.0 in it
And and it can ether be two lanes (80Gbps) or one lane at 40Gbps. TB3 supported 40Gbps maximum and Dp1.4 while TB4 supports 40GBps up and down with the ability to use both to double the bandwidth. This is part of the TB4 standard

First, Thunderbolt 3 and 4 as available on the market are a single 40Gbps full duplex connection. That’s it. While the cable was originally reported by anandtech as being able to carry two channels, it’s not used in either TB3 or 4. It’s possible that this second PHY channel is what will allow TB5 to deliver 80Gbps, but for now, both TB3 and 4 are a single connection. So for TrippLite to use the discussion they did, is misleading at best.

As for DisplayPort mode, things get a bit more complicated. For DisplayPort 2.0, it uses the Thunderbolt 3 PHY layer to reach the 80Gbps needed. Which means it has to be using both channels in the cable. However, Intel’s current TB4 controllers are DP1.4a compliant: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-thunderbolt-4-controller/specifications.html, meaning even though DP 2.0 can be carried over a Thunderbolt 3 active cable, the chips required to handle the alt mode aren’t (yet) here. But with Intel releasing GPUs with DP 2.0 support “Soon(tm)”, I suspect the controller chips can’t be far off either.

So @Sophisticatednut was telling me that the TB4 in the M1 Pro/Max can support 80 Gbps unidirectionally, but based on what @Krevnik posted, while that is what the standard calls for, it's not currently the case in practice. Indeed, that also seems to be the case with 40 Gbps bidirectionally: It's what the standard calls for, but it's not yet implemented.

So we might perhaps see one or both of these in the 2022 iMac Pro/Max's TB4 implementation.

Are we all agreed?
 
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Makisupa Policeman

macrumors 6502
Sep 28, 2021
487
353
The HDMI port is worthless—the device probably could have been at least 0.10” thinner without that unnecessary addition. I’m definitely ok with MagSafe 3 and the SDXC slot though—I hate USB charging and a lot of us with DSLR cameras still shoot to SD cards.
 
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darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,327
10,070
Atlanta, GA
The HDMI port is worthless—the device probably could have been at least 0.10” thinner without that unnecessary addition. I’m definitely ok with MagSafe 3 and the SDXC slot though—I hate USB charging and a lot of us with DSLR cameras still shoot to SD cards.
Thinner...bleh. My MBP finally has good cooling.
 
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