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IvanKaramazov

macrumors member
Jul 23, 2020
32
49
Apps running full screen use the space that a notch would occupy.
Not if, as I suggested, Apple were shifting aspect rations (from the current 16:10 -> 16:11, e.g.) but using the extra vertical space explicitly for the menu bar and notch. Essentially in that scenario apps could update to account for the notch, or barring that could full-screen at the normal 16:10 ratio and ignore the extra vertical space entirely.

To be clear I don't expect them to do any of this, I just think it would be nice.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
I think that depends on how well the chips scale with clock speed. If they reach significantly diminishing returns before reaching the TDP limit, it wouldn't make sense to push it to the TDP limit; rather, it would make sense to instead take the gains in cooler operation and longer battery life.

Neither Intel or AMD stay within their TDP under load, and haven't for years. Just getting an SoC for the MBP that actually stayed under 45W would be a huge win. My 16" loves to spike up over 90W just for the CPU package, and will frequently sit above 60W under load.

tenor.gif
 

Cosmosent

macrumors 68020
Apr 20, 2016
2,315
2,694
La Jolla, CA
Just my $0.02, but I think it could be the native Apple & Third-Party Software that steals the show !

Which Flagship iOS apps would help Apple best Showcase the new Apple Silicon ?

I believe Apple's primary (initial) markets are Games & Remote Education, so very-likely apps in those two categories.
 

ascender

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2005
5,021
2,897
Now that I think of it, they could include the FaceID projector (which is the part that needs to be thicker) in the chassis (like some laptops that include the webcam near the keyboard instead of on the lid) to project the beams used to identify face shape but still the camera/FaceID pattern reader on the lid (which is a better suited angle for making people look good). That *might* be possible.

As for a less hardware-based version of FaceID, that's a no-no. It would be much less secure.
That’s what I thought they might do to accommodate FaceID and take an upwards-facing scan, but not sure how feasible that it. Having used it on an iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard FaceID really does make authentication invisible in most scenarios and I’d love to see it on a laptop.

Would they need to thicken the lid to incorporate a touchscreen?

I’m still impressed that nothing has leaked about tomorrow! This i just like the old days where everything an a Keynote was a surprise.
 

ascender

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2005
5,021
2,897
Just my $0.02, but I think it could be the native Apple & Third-Party Software that steals the show !

Which Flagship iOS apps would help Apple best Showcase the new Apple Silicon ?

I believe Apple's primary (initial) markets are Games & Remote Education, so very-likely apps in those two categories.

It will be interesting to see what they do to showcase it. For us tech nerds I think it will be all about the performance.

For everybody else, the sell is easy.... “You know all those apps you love for your iPad & iPhone? Now you can get them for your Mac too! And the battery on the new Air lasts twice as long as it used to.”
 

tuc

macrumors 6502
Aug 25, 2003
333
67
I don't expect them tomorrow, but eventually multi-processor machines. If they threw two A14s in there, that would be 4 high-performance cores (and 8 high-efficiency cores) total. Throw in four A14s and that's 8 high-performance cores total. (But it probably won't be A14s because they would have to be modified to support multi-processor use, though I guess it's possible they are already designed for it. But that would mean wasted transistors in all those iPhone 12s and iPad Airs that have only a single A14.)
 

jwdsail

macrumors 6502a
Mar 3, 2004
941
1,102
Alright, as I post this, it's less than 48 hours to go until the November Apple event for the debut of Apple silicon Macs. Woohoo! So what's rumored right now are...
  • Two 13-inch Apple silicon MacBook models — most likely MacBook Air & MacBook Pro
  • 16-inch Apple silicon MacBook model — tentative "maybe" ??‍♂️
...All in the existing design we're all familiar with. That's it. Just swapping out the processor can't be the whole story — or can it? I noticed Apple doesn't capitalize silicon, so "Apple Silicon" isn't going to the brand name, thank god. Yet for some reason the naming of these "Mac family of processors" as A14 or A14X seems off, like they should be called an X1 or Z1. That would sound more bad ass, in my opinion.

While I'm excited for the switch I think Apple may include some other tweaks/creature comforts. Here's a list:
  1. Improved battery life — Seems like a given to supposed offset of the Intel processor's power consumption. How much of an improvement can only be guesstimated. I'd like to see it 2x compared to what we have now. I can't see Apple reducing battery size as a way of reducing overall weight of these devices — but who knows?
  2. 802.11ax (WiFi 6) — seems like a given since it's already on the newest iPhones & iPads.
  3. Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 ports — Seems likely, yes? Since Thunderbolt 4 is a royalty free. I mean how the hell else was Craig powering that Apple Pro Display XDR in the WWDC lab video?
  4. Brighter displays — Doesn't look like we'll get any real change in the display quality yet (i.e. higher resolution, ProMotion, or mini LED). So we'll get a screen that can go up to 600 to 700 nits? Might help with iPhone HDR video situation?
  5. Improved FaceTime HD camera — how about something in the 1080p range? I mean 720p is so 2010...
  6. Face ID — This sadly doesn't seem possible with this update, even though we got iSight cameras first in Apple laptops in the last processor transition with the MacBook Pro in 2006.
What surprises might we see?
  • Like, for example, will they keep the Touch Bar in the MacBook Pro? I'd just assume jettison it — but that's more of a personal thing than a likelihood at this point.
  • 5G integration — I think this possibility as very remote.
  • Elimination of 2 Thunderbolt port model on the 13" MBP, it's 4 ports.
  • 16" MacBook Pro preview — coming in late December or January?
Your thoughts?

Did I mention I'm excited?
I think you're on the right track?

In terms of marketing/naming, I'm thinking it'll be "MacBook - Powered by Apple", "iMac - Powered by Apple", etc, and the print and TV ads will have language similar to "Powered by the same advanced processor technology found in Apple's most powerful mobile devices"...

Chip name(s)? If it isn't Apple M14, Apple F14, or Apple A14M, I won't be shocked, but a little disappointed? I think F14, F15, F16, etc would get the *speed* concept into customer's minds effectively ... They'll probably stick with A14Z Desktop/Laptop or something equally unimaginative?

If the new laptops don't offer more speed than the current top of the line Intel models, this experiment will look to be a failure out of the gate, and Macs will resume to be viewed as "Low end", regardless of actual performance for years to come? There can't be a sniff of "Low end" anything with the announcement. Speed has to be stupid fast, battery life has to be "up to *double" the current model . *Using available power saving options. I'm hoping for some impressive FCP, Photoshop/Premiere, game, etc "Bake-offs"...

If Apple was introducing new case designs, I'd say that much improved screens were a shoe-in, but more than likely we'll see exactly the incremental improvements you've suggested?

I'd really hope that we'd see a huge leap in camera quality, but I'm not going to hold my breath? Probably when the next case design refresh happens?

5G? I think you're right, unlikely, but perhaps a BTO option?

My (highly) unlikely surprise I'd like to see? A dongle/add-on w/ an i3/i5 processor, that allows the new Macs to continue to use BootCamp and Intel VMs? A small NUC that uses the Mac's KB, Mouse/trackpad and screen... Size of an AppleTV? $299 for the i3? $399 for the i5? (8GB ram and 256GB SSD in each?)

My other highly unlikely surprise prediction? NVIDIA 3070 level GPU w/ it's own 16GB memory in the high end Apple Powered iMac I think we'll also see announced. Again with the obvious "Bake-offs"...

I guess we'll find out tomorrow?
 

MF878

macrumors 6502
Jul 12, 2011
370
338
Auckland, New Zealand
I don't expect them tomorrow, but eventually multi-processor machines. If they threw two A14s in there, that would be 4 high-performance cores (and 8 high-efficiency cores) total. Throw in four A14s and that's 8 high-performance cores total. (But it probably won't be A14s because they would have to be modified to support multi-processor use, though I guess it's possible they are already designed for it. But that would mean wasted transistors in all those iPhone 12s and iPad Airs that have only a single A14.)
This is a horribly inefficient way to scale performance, even if you ignore the software optimisation necessary and the hardware challenge of trying to bridge data quickly between multiple SoCs. An A14 has 2 high performance cores and 4 low power cores. If you had four A14s you’d have 8 high performance cores and 16 low power cores. There is literally no point having 16 low power cores, it’s a huge waste of transistors. You’re better off to use the same amount of transistors on one die with 12 high performance cores and 4 low power cores.
 
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omenatarhuri

macrumors 6502a
Feb 9, 2010
992
1,019
We'll see how Apple handles thermals in ASi Macs vs. Intel Macs. We won't see the full impact until Apple releases specific designed cases for ASi-powered systems.

Clearly, Apple is disappointed with Intel's offerings and has been for years. For Joe Consumer, this is buried in poor thermal performance, poor CPU benchmarks, high Mac chassis temperatures, etc.

I will point out that NVMe SSDs can get pretty darned hot and I won't even open the can of worms that is the discrete GPU universe.
The GPUs are definitely on their way to crazy town. The latest big boy GPUs recommend 750W PSUs.
 
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Realityck

macrumors G4
Nov 9, 2015
11,421
17,213
Silicon Valley, CA

Opinion: As Apple releases its new line of Macs, the biggest beneficiary may be Microsoft - Marketwatch. 11/9​


Challenging transition​

My biggest concern, though, isn’t the promises, but rather the potential vulnerabilities for Apple. The transition from Intel INTC, +0.46% to its new Arm-based silicon is almost certain to be a challenging transition that will impact both consumers and developers.

The company’s entire software ecosystem will have to be rewritten to work on this new architecture, and this takes time. Microsoft MSFT, -2.38%, for instance, has been working for a decade on building its software ecosystem to run smoothly on Arm-based variants, both of its Surface Pro X but also other Arm-based notebooks from the likes of Samsung and Lenovo. The improvement has been material, but it has been markedly difficult to meet all the developer and consumer needs.

Reaction of consumers, developers​

This will leave consumers frustrated with their new Macs, perhaps more so than Mac’s constant quality issues with its keyboards in recent generations. Furthermore, this creates more work for developers, who will now be required to support disparate apps for the Intel version and the Arm version — this is anything but straightforward.

Perhaps Apple’s biggest mistake is its claims that this transition will be seamless. Sure, that is good marketing, but the more realistic approach should be: “Bear with us while we make the Mac experience even better.”

Another big question mark for Apple will be around support of its current generation of Intel-based Macs. The company was heavily scrutinized for its short period of support for PowerPC after shifting to Mac. The support period lasted only three years, and that left some Apple customers dissatisfied. Many Mac users stay with a device for five to eight years, and certainly won’t want to be forced to buy another $2,000-plus device prematurely if Apple decides to stop supporting its Intel-based Macs after three years. This will be something to watch closely.

If Apple does stumble for a period while it seeks to perfect its new silicon, the next question is where do consumers seeking an alternative to Mac turn?

Microsoft stands to gain​

I believe Microsoft could be the big winner during this transition for the Mac. The Microsoft Surface has seen its growth rates up 37% in its most recent quarter, tracking over $6 billion in its trailing four quarters. This number is still much smaller than Mac, which saw its Mac revenue at $9 billion in its most recent quarter, reflecting its best quarter ever, growing 28% year over year. Still, I believe there may have been some padding with buyers seeking to upgrade before Apple moves away from the Intel-based silicon.

Maybe more than just Microsoft and Surface’s growth momentum is the brand strength and ultra-premium branding that comes with Surface. I have long believed Microsoft’s endeavor into Surface had much less to do with competing with its large software OEM’s like Dell DELL, -0.54%, HP HPQ, +2.49% and Lenovo, and much more to do with building a true competitor to the Mac.

This has been visible in the entire approach to Surface, including acute attention to details such as the packaging, the branding on the notebooks, the construction materials and the premium pricing. Microsoft has also been wise in its development of the Surface to include Intel, AMD AMD, -3.21%,and Arm-based variants, giving customers a choice while taking advantage of its ability to support all three chipsets’ software compatibility nuances.

Tuesday’s launch has a lot at stake for Apple. Apple’s move away from Intel has long been touted as a big problem for Intel, but it could be equally, if not more problematic, for Apple. With Microsoft Surface continuing to gain momentum for its ultra-high-quality notebooks, Mac faces more competition and will be under pressure to get this right— sooner than later.
While I expect Apple to pursue multiple processor platform support across different Mac models the next 2 years. This article points to the risk of appeasing business customers versus appeasing consumers in the long run. I also should point out that no matter what Apple shows tomorrow November 10th, this journey has barely begun. :)
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Nobody is really mentioning MacMini. Seems easy for this to be part of the initial release given they've already released one for testing purposes... It's never going to be the headline item given its slight niche status but should be easy to get an A14X or equivalent in there and launch on day one.

Given working-from-home life, I'd be interested in one if there are no other updates to MBP beyond a processor swap.

If the Mac Mini DTK was a finished product, you might have a point. However, all indications are that the Mini was just used because the chassis was large enough to fit in the frankensteined parts that went into the DTK. If Apple does release a Mac Mini running AS, it could be half the height of the current Mini and keep the same depth and width (which would also allow the new Minis to fit into the same server racks the current models can use).
 

Joelist

macrumors 6502
Jan 28, 2014
463
373
Illinois
The Verge "article" makes the same mistake some others have, that of assuming that Apple Silicon and other ARM cores are equivalent - they aren't. One of the reasons the A Series outperforms all other SOCs like it does is the completely different microarchitecture. It is already a desktop class architecture and if anything resembles the Intel Core 2 architecture.

Apple specifically stated that the Macs will NOT be using the iPhone or the iPad SOC - it is a completely new family. So expect a SOC with 6-8 performance cores and at least 4 efficiency cores. Also more GPU cores and more cache everywhere.
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK

Opinion: As Apple releases its new line of Macs, the biggest beneficiary may be Microsoft - Marketwatch. 11/9​



While I expect Apple to pursue multiple processor platform support across different Mac models the next 2 years. This article points to the risk of appeasing business customers versus appeasing consumers in the long run. I also should point out that no matter what Apple shows tomorrow November 10th, this journey has barely begun. :)

The author of that opinion clearly didn't pay any attention to the WWDC keynote based on his comments about transitioning the software from x86 to ARM. He also apparently assumes that Apple just woke up one morning in February and said "let's switch to our own processors!", as he clearly doesn't know that not only has Apple been working on this for several years now, but that the bulk of Apple software (along with Microsoft Office and at least some Adobe apps) have already been recompiled for the new processors. I can attest to the fact that converting an app from x86 to ARM using XCode is a relatively painless experience, not "anything but straightforward" as the author claims, although there are always some glitches in the matrix from time to time. I was not in any sort of development role or capacity during the PPC-Intel transition, so I can not use that experience as a guideline for what to expect now.

From Apple's perspective, it would make sense to launch AS with the MacBook product lines, as their big obstacle on the portable side has been Intel for several years now. Assuming that some of the recent benchmarks popping up on Geekbench and elsewhere are legitimate, Apple may have figuratively punched Intel in the face with these first-gen notebooks, which bodes well for their professional machines (i.e., Mac Pro, iMac Pro) going forward. Unlike Intel, HP, etc., the bulk of Apple's revenues come from consumer products and services, so if they can get the consumers on board up front, it becomes an easier sell to businesses and creative professionals down the line who will have already been exposed to the new machines prior to launch of the business-class hardware.
 

Think creative

macrumors 6502
Jul 27, 2013
421
889
I need the new ones to come out, and then the redesigned 14 inch MacBooks (hopefully both air and pros) and I can't wait to grab one for my personal computer. I just need to make sure affinity photo, Scrivener, and a few other programs will work on arm (and having reached out to the developers, they've all said they'll be there soon. Other than those few programs, (forgot my screen writing programs and one other) I'm stock apps (well and Spotify) so it should be a smooth transition for me.
 

tuc

macrumors 6502
Aug 25, 2003
333
67
This is a horribly inefficient way to scale performance, even if you ignore the software optimisation necessary and the hardware challenge of trying to bridge data quickly between multiple SoCs. An A14 has 2 high performance cores and 4 low power cores. If you had four A14s you’d have 8 high performance cores and 16 low power cores. There is literally no point having 16 low power cores, it’s a huge waste of transistors. You’re better off to use the same amount of transistors on one die with 12 high performance cores and 4 low power cores.
I don't disagree, which is why I don't think it will be A14 SoCs but something else. Something designed for interprocessor communication and cache coherency. (I'm not sure what you're saying about software optimization, unless you're talking about keeping the cores busy.)
Apple could have a killer "Pro" machine this way. I mean they could have one anyway, but there's a limit on what they can do with a single chip/package.
 

Realityck

macrumors G4
Nov 9, 2015
11,421
17,213
Silicon Valley, CA
Apple specifically stated that the Macs will NOT be using the iPhone or the iPad SOC - it is a completely new family. So expect a SOC with 6-8 performance cores and at least 4 efficiency cores. Also more GPU cores and more cache everywhere.
You could be right, but then who really knows at the moment if it is as fast as most of us want this to be for business/consumers usage?
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
You could be right, but then who really knows at the moment if it is as fast as most of us want this to be for business/consumers usage?
My guess is 4+4 (Performance/efficiency) for the MacBook Air and either 6+4 or 8+4 for the MacBook Pro. Conceivable the MBP will also be 4+4, but maybe clocked faster, and with more GPU cores.

I don't expect to see an ASi MBP16 tomorrow, but it may be announced for "early next year".
 

DHagan4755

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Jul 18, 2002
2,266
6,150
Massachusetts
My guess is 4+4 (Performance/efficiency) for the MacBook Air and either 6+4 or 8+4 for the MacBook Pro. Conceivable the MBP will also be 4+4, but maybe clocked faster, and with more GPU cores.

I don't expect to see an ASi MBP16 tomorrow, but it may be announced for "early next year".
That kinda aligns with my thoughts. How will Apple differentiate them from a marketing perspective? I still contend that A14X, A14S, A14T, A14Z, don't sound as robust as other naming schemes. But what do I know? We'll find out tomorrow!
 

Greg Roche

macrumors newbie
Jul 23, 2020
2
3
Apple needs to call it something that Joe Consumer can understand.

Joe Consumer isn't going to understand that Core i7 is Intel and A__ is Apple Silicon so they can't just identify the CPU models.

When they transitioned from PowerPC to Intel, the CPU architecture was prominently mentioned in the product name (PowerBook G4 vs. Intel MacBook).

I would expect that the Apple Silicon moniker (or another proprietary Apple trademarkable name) will be used to denote the new Mac hardware running their in-house silicon.
Maybe MacBook Pro AS. Something like that.
 

MallardDuck

macrumors 68000
Jul 21, 2014
1,677
3,222
Just my $0.02, but I think it could be the native Apple & Third-Party Software that steals the show !

Which Flagship iOS apps would help Apple best Showcase the new Apple Silicon ?

I believe Apple's primary (initial) markets are Games & Remote Education, so very-likely apps in those two categories.
Games? Mac? We can't get major titles even on Intel...
 

MallardDuck

macrumors 68000
Jul 21, 2014
1,677
3,222
If the new laptops don't offer more speed than the current top of the line Intel models, this experiment will look to be a failure out of the gate, and Macs will resume to be viewed as "Low end", regardless of actual performance for years to come? There can't be a sniff of "Low end" anything with the announcement. Speed has to be stupid fast, battery life has to be "up to *double" the current model . *Using available power saving options. I'm hoping for some impressive FCP, Photoshop/Premiere, game, etc "Bake-offs"...
You know, that's a scary thought. That apple would nerf the intel models (or just freeze them with out of date components) just to make the AS ones look better.....

I *really* wish they would get out of their bubble and look at real-world use cases.
 
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