Last minute Apple silicon Mac thoughts

[Andropov]

Yep, unfortunately without a redesign Face ID is highly unlikely, and perhaps not even then. The hold-up for both Face ID and higher res webcams is the thickness of the lid, which currently couldn't fit a much higher-res camera, not to mention a true-depth scanner. It's hard to imagine Apple accepting additional millimeters across the entire lid just for the webcam.

Where there is the potential for some improvements, I imagine, is if Apple were to apply some of their software camera magic from the iPhone to the webcam. It may be that the Mac A-series chips still include some version of the photo processing unit on the phones, and I've wondered if they might not try to improve webcam performance that way. Maybe there's even some less-hardware-based form of Face ID in that. I wouldn't expect anything like either though until the probably 2021 redesign at the earliest.

The iMac, on the other hand, I would find surprising if it didn't have Face ID and a better webcam.

Now that I think of it, they could include the FaceID projector (which is the part that needs to be thicker) in the chassis (like some laptops that include the webcam near the keyboard instead of on the lid) to project the beams used to identify face shape but still the camera/FaceID pattern reader on the lid (which is a better suited angle for making people look good). That *might* be possible.

As for a less hardware-based version of FaceID, that's a no-no. It would be much less secure.

 

[UltimateSyn]

It's hard to imagine Apple accepting additional millimeters across the entire lid just for the webcam.

How mad would you be if Apple put a camera bump on the MBP lid to incorporate a FaceID system? I for one would welcome it.

 

[machinesworking]

15” is dead, replaced by 16”. I except it to get a bit thinner with Apple Silicon, but the firm factor itself is solid. Let’s not forget that the current 16” is actually more compact then the original retina 15” Mac. It’s really a 15” model with smaller bezels.

Good information, thanks and that makes sense about the bezels, I'm typing this on an original 15" retina.

15"... It's dead, Jim. It's nothing but a red shirt now.
That's impressive being on this site, but not knowing the 15" is a dodo! That's some world class information blockage -- SPF MAC 5000!

Thanks, nice to know who the forum bully is up front.

 

[Krevnik]

Thunderbolt not being "royalty free" had nothing to do with Apple's use or non use of it.
If this is a presumption that Apple whipped up their own "from scratch" TBv4 implementation and are ready to ship. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Again Intel has the only shipping TBv4 implementation out there ( and if Apple is dumping Intel .... ). The DTK had no Thunderbolt. Apple wasn't ahead of the curve there.

USB 4 . Likewise Intel is only one shipping in volume at the moment.


As to "how do you use XDR" ... there is a not so well documentent DiplayPort v1.3 mode that you can use on some Windows laptops ( some Microsoft models) to get to XDR to drop into a backward compatibility mode that "happens to work". Apple probably knows that "back door" to that mode better than anyone else. Unofficially, Thunderbolt isn't necessary. And USB 4 and/or TBv4 are necessary at all for XDR.

The XDR also supports DSC, which has already been used with GPUs that support DisplayPort over USB-C (i.e. non-Apple AMD cards). So it's possible to support it that way without Thunderbolt.

Verge claims Apple has stated that Thunderbolt will be supported on these new machines though: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbre...icon-intel-thunderbolt-arm-macs-support-usb-c

Even if Apple is leaving Intel behind for CPUs, it doesn't mean they can't use Intel as a part supplier for the TB controllers. Since TB controllers have very limited range between the controller and the physical port, baking it into the SoC adds some ugly drawbacks. At least in the short term, it makes a lot of sense to just keep sourcing controllers from Intel.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Now that I think of it, they could include the FaceID projector (which is the part that needs to be thicker) in the chassis (like some laptops that include the webcam near the keyboard instead of on the lid) to project the beams used to identify face shape but still the camera/FaceID pattern reader on the lid (which is a better suited angle for making people look good). That *might* be possible.

As for a less hardware-based version of FaceID, that's a no-no. It would be much less secure.

Oh, for sure. It would end up being something more like Windows Hello, I imagine, which I wouldn't personally be a fan of. My point is just that it is indeed a possible route.

Putting the projector elsewhere on the device is a fascinating idea. Would be a weird angle of your face though, and one that current FaceID implementations don't work well with. I wonder if it could work though?

How mad would you be if Apple put a camera bump on the MBP lid to incorporate a FaceID system? I for one would welcome it.

I'd not like that at all, to be honest. I sincerely do wish they'd consider a notch though, which people would absolutely hate. But current Macbooks have more space on the top and bottom bezels than the sides, and you could adjust the screen ration from 16:10 to something like 16:11 or 4:3 and have a notch that essentially just cut the menu bar in half. Would allow for much smaller bezels (and a bit extra screen real-estate) without pinching the camera, etc. too much.

 

[bluecoast]

That would be quite the development!

I can’t see them doing that. I think that they view the iPad as their touch screen / form morphing computer. To them, the Mac feels like it’s a clamshell, all in one desktop or headless desktop.

True, UI elements in Big Sur are more spaced out - but I think that’s to help with porting iPad apps to the Mac and that we all have bigger high res screens now, that can handle looser UI layouts.

 

[bluecoast]

Not as far as I am aware of. I wonder if Apples technology is good enough to put the camera at the bottom of the screen instead, as the display could be slightly thicker there without ruining the overall look, and then use AI to shift the appearance of the face to look at the camera, despite looking at the screen, similar to what they do on iPhones.

That would be great. We need the same sort of front facing cameras in the Mac as we have in the iPhone.

 

[UltimateSyn]

I'd not like that at all, to be honest. I sincerely do wish they'd consider a notch though, which people would absolutely hate. But current Macbooks have more space on the top and bottom bezels than the sides, and you could adjust the screen ration from 16:10 to something like 16:11 or 4:3 and have a notch that essentially just cut the menu bar in half. Would allow for much smaller bezels (and a bit extra screen real-estate) without pinching the camera, etc. too much.

Yeah, I'd like that too. That middle of the Menu Bar is generally unused anyway, might as well push the screen up to get more usable real estate out of the same chassis size. And for my bump suggestion, I just mean a real subtle gentle curved bump to allow for FaceID and a 4K webcam. That would allow them to put high-end camera components in the laptop without sacrificing the overall thickness of the laptop and display. With a notch and a bump many would go insane, but it would be a hell of a unique statement and design distinguishable immediately as a MacBook in this world of copycats.

 

[bluecoast]

I know no one is reporting it, and I'm probably wrong, but a part of me actually feels we could see the 24" iMac tomorrow.

The 21" wasn't updated this year and in my opinion a ASi 24" model could live in harmony with the last Intel 27".

That would be amazing, but like others have said, it feels like we won’t get radical redesigns to the chassis just yet - and I can’t imagine that Apple would wheel out the new AS in the 8-9 year old iMac 21.5 inch chassis.

Having said that, I can’t imagine that Apple will roll out AS to the existing 13 inch MBP chassis without a redesign that makes it look more like the 16 inch...

So maybe you could be right.

It would be poetic for the all in one form factor to be there at the launch.

But maybe now the quintessential form of the personal computer is the clamshell & the iMac will have to edit until 2021.

 

[Andropov]

Putting the projector elsewhere on the device is a fascinating idea. Would be a weird angle of your face though, and one that current FaceID implementations don't work well with. I wonder if it could work though?

One of the things the algorithm would need to know is the angle of the lid, to infer the relative position from the source of the projection and the camera/capture device (since they're not in the same axis anymore, as in the iPhone/iPad version). Interestingly, Apple added a sensor which measures exactly that in the MacBook Pro 16".

Also I'm not sure if current webcams have enough resolution to resolve the points from the FaceID projector, since they're still 720p. That could be a problem.

 

[aca345]

Like others, I'm also surprised that we haven't heard more in terms of leaks/rumours. I guess unlike the iPhone it's easier for Apple to keep ASi Macs underwraps. This is the most excited I've been for an event in probably a decade.

In terms of what to expect, here's my guess. I think we'll see updates as Gurman reported and that Apple with stick with "A##" naming scheme for the chips. We'll see an A14X in the Air and 13" Pro, and a A14Z in the 16" Pro (more graphics cores, assuming its an integrated architecture). I think the Air will not have configurable ram, but the Pros will (8GB standard, then 16 or 32). Storage would be configurable across the board (like today).

I would also guess that the current intel laptops will stick around as the base models, i.e. ASi will be the "best" option on the "good, better, best" rubric. For example, I don't see Apple offering ASi at the $999 price point for the Air.

I look forward to seeing how right (or wrong!) I am tomorrow...

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Like others, I'm also surprised that we haven't heard more in terms of leaks/rumours. I guess unlike the iPhone it's easier for Apple to keep ASi Macs underwraps. This is the most excited I've been for an event in probably a decade.

In terms of what to expect, here's my guess. I think we'll see updates as Gurman reported and that Apple with stick with "A##" naming scheme for the chips. We'll see an A14X in the Air and 13" Pro, and a A14Z in the 16" Pro (more graphics cores, assuming its an integrated architecture). I think the Air will not have configurable ram, but the Pros will (8GB standard, then 16 or 32). Storage would be configurable across the board (like today).

I would also guess that the current intel laptops will stick around as the base models, i.e. ASi will be the "best" option on the "good, better, best" rubric. For example, I don't see Apple offering ASi at the $999 price point for the Air.

I look forward to seeing how right (or wrong!) I am tomorrow...

I agree with a lot of your guesses. I doubt they will sell a MBA that cannot contain more than 8GB of RAM, since it's possible now to get 16. I'm not sure it makes sense for Apple to sell ASi as the "best" options and Intel as the rest, since it seems safe to say that the ASi models are actually cheaper for Apple to produce. It's possible they'll sell Intel and ASi models of the same laptop side-by-side. I actually suspect that after tomorrow, the 16" Macbook Pro will be the only Intel laptop in the lineup, but we'll see!

 

[aca345]

I agree with a lot of your guesses. I doubt they will sell a MBA that cannot contain more than 8GB of RAM, since it's possible now to get 16. I'm not sure it makes sense for Apple to sell ASi as the "best" options and Intel as the rest, since it seems safe to say that the ASi models are actually cheaper for Apple to produce. It's possible they'll sell Intel and ASi models of the same laptop side-by-side. I actually suspect that after tomorrow, the 16" Macbook Pro will be the only Intel laptop in the lineup, but we'll see!

Fair points all around, I guess I'm just super curious to see how they structure the lineup and how big of a leap they'll make, i.e. is everything getting replaced whole cloth or will they keep Intel stuff around on low end (or high end on the 16, like you mentioned)! And to your point on the ASi being cheaper for Apple to produce, I want to believe they will pass on those savings, but they could also use that new margin to reinvest in other tech (or keep it themselves, lol). Either way, tomorrow is going to be interesting.

 

[JosepPont]

I'm in the market for a MBP and I want to know what will be anounced tomorrow but if the 16 inch not will be redesigned (spected for 2021) I'll wait. I don't want to buy a machine that is espected to be outdated in a few months.

I'm surprised there are no rumors/leaks on the front page with less than 24 hours to go. Apple has done a good job keeping this event under wraps.

Totally agree, IDK how is that last year when before the 16 inch release were some leaks like the charger, the icon in Catalina's Beta and now mostly nothing.

 

[deevey]

I doubt it. Apple has stated numerous times that they're not interested in doing this.

I used to be on the side of against (fingerprints, ergonomics etc ..) and on one side of the argument it does make sense to just not do it (as a primary input method).

But transitioning from my Logitech docked iPad to using my wife's MacBook on occasion I've started to automatically hit the screen on the MBA Air regardless for certain tasks e.g. switching tabs, ending calls, scaling photos etc...

Muscle memory - I never would have done it prior to using a tablet daily, but now its second nature I seem to be doing it with every notebook I come across by accident (and its becoming increasingly frustrating when touch doesn't work!).

I would not rule it out completely. Although unlikely, Apple have flipped on other things in the past. Two handed phones for example.

 

[s66]

My wish list (but very unlikely to happen)
- Get rid of the touchbar bring back real keys on laptops - it's as useless as a touchscreen on a computer.
- Give us a glimpse of where they're going to head with the GPUs in a future Mac Pro generation

My expectation:
- Give us one laptop aiming at showing huge battery live while maintaining the cpu power of an Intel machine
- Give us one laptop aiming at keeping the current battery life while increasing the performance of the CPU way beyond anything from Intel

If they pull that off, they will have drawn the lines in the sand and Apple Silicon can be expected to create a wind of change. I hope the engineering teams have been allowed to show what they can do "when they try hard".

no new case or form factor: show off the Apple Silicon in itself.

 

[richman555]

I welcome our new Apple Silicon overlords.

A laptop which is not hot, perhaps no fan even, perfectly quiet, and 2 day battery life would be awesome!

 

[Realityck]

Arm Macs are a big gamble, and Apple is all in - Verge 11/9​

When Apple switched to Intel, both the hardware and software were proven affairs. Customers knew roughly what to expect from an Intel processor, and developers knew that they’d be able to write software to match.

Arm, however, is a whole new ball game. There’s just a handful of Arm laptops that can give even an idea of how Apple’s own chips might fare. And even the best Arm chips for laptops out right now, like Qualcomm’s 8cx or the Microsoft-branded SQ2, are designed for ultralight laptops. No one has made an Arm-based laptop that can offer performance on par with computers like Apple’s MacBook Pros or Dell’s XPS lineup, much less a desktop.

ARM, HOWEVER, IS A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME
That’s not to say that Apple is coming into this completely unprepared. It has been designing processors for a decade now, and the latest crop of chips in devices like the most recent iPad Pro offer plenty of power. But outside of the few developers who’ve gotten to try Apple’s Arm developer kit (which is equipped with a chip that’s two years old), it remains to be seen how that performance will translate to more traditional laptop tasks or whether it’ll be able to keep pace with the best chips from Intel and AMD.

Apple has tried to ease the transition on the software side, too. It has spent the last few years pushing Catalyst apps designed to help develop Mac apps that share code with their iOS counterparts. And the fact that the new Arm-based Macs will run nearly every iPhone and iOS app natively will help, too.

But there’s still a big gap between even iPad apps and Mac ones. Even if Apple can make good on its promises for Arm versions of Adobe apps like Photoshop and Lightroom or Microsoft’s Office suite, it’s going to take developers time to adjust. Just take a look at the slow pace of the Windows Arm transition.

Apple’s event is almost guaranteed to come with big, flashy demonstrations of its new MacBook’s power and big claims about how they compare to the old, x86 models. But that announcement is just going to be the beginning for Apple, and the proof — or refutation — of this next big jump is still an open question that may take months of real-world use to answer.

Waiting to see how the Nov 10 show effects our opinions.

 

[jz0309]

Arm Macs are a big gamble, and Apple is all in - Verge 11/9​

Waiting to see how the Nov 10 show effects our opinions.

yep, they are spot on!

 

[jz0309]

My wish list (but very unlikely to happen)
- Get rid of the touchbar bring back real keys on laptops - it's as useless as a touchscreen on a computer.
- Give us a glimpse of where they're going to head with the GPUs in a future Mac Pro generation

My expectation:
- Give us one laptop aiming at showing huge battery live while maintaining the cpu power of an Intel machine
- Give us one laptop aiming at keeping the current battery life while increasing the performance of the CPU way beyond anything from Intel

If they pull that off, they will have drawn the lines in the sand and Apple Silicon can be expected to create a wind of change. I hope the engineering teams have been allowed to show what they can do "when they try hard".

no new case or form factor: show off the Apple Silicon in itself.

I agree with your expectations, but I do expect new cases/formfactors as they will want to visually differentiate the new products

 

[theorist9]

My guess is that if Apple chooses to use existing chassis in the new Apple Silicon notebooks they will utilize the entire thermal envelope design.

So if it reaches ___ degrees Celsius with Intel CPUs, it'll reach the same temperature with whatever Apple calls their in-house silicon. The duration might be less.

We saw this in their home-grown iPhone SoCs both on the CPU and GPU sides. The early generations were modestly better. The turning point was when Apple released their own 64-bit ARM silicon. The competition was left speechless. My guess is that was the moment that Apple knew that they could eventually replace Intel CPUs in their PCs.

I cannot imagine that the first-generation ASi chips will be fully optimized in conjunction with the operating system. It'll be awesome but nowhere near what we'll see in future systems. My guess is that Apple will choose to reduce total TDP.

I don't need a notebook computer to run on battery power for three days between charges.

There's a bigger chance of change when Apple releases new industrial designs.

Based on the complete lack of design leaks, my guess is that Apple's first generation of Apple Silicon-powered machines will be in existing case designs. Someday Apple will change the industrial design of their Macs but I don't expect that this Tuesday.

Much like the old iPhone paradigm, the first Apple Silicon Mac generation will be a "S" release. Apple changes the guts but doesn't muck with the external design.

I think that depends on how well the chips scale with clock speed. If they reach significantly diminishing returns before reaching the TDP limit, it wouldn't make sense to push it to the TDP limit; rather, it would make sense to instead take the gains in cooler operation and longer battery life.

 

[theorist9]

What I expect:

• Some models of entry level Mac laptops (be it an Air or a MBP). No 16" yet
• USB 4
• No major changes to the chassis
• Major performance and energy efficiency updates — in general, I expect everything to go up a tier, e.g. an Air would perform like an old 13" Pro, a 13" Pro would perform like a mid-range 16" Pro, a 16" Pro would perform like a desktop etc.

What are the current consensus predictions for chipset models/no. high power and low power cores/clockspeeds/GPU/memory? [I figure you've probably been able to keep better track of this than I have.]

 

[Loge]

Yeah, I'd like that too. That middle of the Menu Bar is generally unused anyway, might as well push the screen up to get more usable real estate out of the same chassis size.

Apps running full screen use the space that a notch would occupy.

 

[DHagan4755]

Apple will more than likely spend considerable time demonstrating workflows. Of course these will be on new released versions of Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, and Photoshop. They already have in a way with DTK hardware at WWDC. But there will be so much more to flush out.

So on the software side of the ledger, I think we should add we'll see the release of Big Sur after the Apple event, as well as updated Universal 2 versions of Final Cut Pro (version 10.5) and Logic Pro. Also don't forget about the iWork apps as well. Partners like Adobe & Microsoft will probably have a mention or even stage time. Maybe we'll get dates from them as to when their Universal 2 apps will be available. We already know that Lightroom & Photoshop have been recompiled for ASi, but what about other apps like InDesign & Premiere Pro?

So in calculating the time of the presentation, please remember to carve out time for the demonstration of workflows. That could eat up some time in the overall presentation.

 

[powerslave12r]

I wonder if they will address the ghosting and PWM issues reported in the 16" Macbook Pro with tomorrow's models.