Louis Rossman on soldered SSD

[TechnoMonk]

Well, we can talk about credibility, clickbait, and intelligence all day long. But you still haven't actually proven why Louis Rossman is wrong. You've brought questions about his credibility and continued to deflect against the actual argument, but you haven't addressed his actual points.

Also, my point is that security and repairability are not mutually exclusive things. Now there might be other reasons Apple is still soldering their SSDs even into their larger Macbooks, and we can discuss those reasons. But security is a very bad reason to bring up, and that's the entire point that I'm making. Apple themselves (and many who are on this side of the debate, including many in this thread) have cited security as a leading reason, and I've given my argument as to why I strongly disagree with the notion that security is a reason for why they must be soldered. I've presented this, and it's been glossed over more than once.

Larger notbooks are not desktops. not even close. It is not bad reason to bring up security, infact notebooks are mobile and more susciptable to theft.
Its the Youtuber who has to prove his statement on what is defective, or not. I didnt claim that, like i said you can disgree with design choices of Apple. Apple strategy in past few years have been compact devices which are mobile( includig notebooks) over upgradability and repairability. I wouldnt be surprised if Apple comes up with SC+RAM+Storage in a single package for notebooks. RAM is already packaged with SOC.

 

[TechnoMonk]

This conversation is going full circle, I have already mentioned other possible constraints, like using a similar production line for multiple devices. Apple could use similar equipment to solder the storage in multiple mobile devices. There are many more that are in the thread. I am done here; not going to keep repeating every few pages. Apple has to deliver/support millions of devices, I am pretty sure Apple has a large team testing, and designing multiple options before the production design is finalized.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Larger notbooks are not desktops. not even close. It is not bad reason to bring up security, infact notebooks are mobile and more susciptable to theft.
Its the Youtuber who has to prove his statement on what is defective, or not. I didnt claim that, like i said you can disgree with design choices of Apple. Apple strategy in past few years have been compact devices which are mobile( includig notebooks) over upgradability and repairability. I wouldnt be surprised if Apple comes up with SC+RAM+Storage in a single package for notebooks. RAM is already packaged with SOC.

Still, removable SSDs wouldn't make any difference on whether data theft could occur on a laptop if the device were stolen. If someone really wanted to, they could snoop on the data lanes between the SSD and the SOC, (of course, these things are encrypted, they'd have to figure out exactly how these decryption keys are stored and figure out how to work around that, but my point remains). The exact same thing goes for if they desoldered and removed the SSD chips and tried to access them outside of the Mac by installing them into some other kind of device that allowed them to do this: The data is still encrypted.

And the same would be true if the SSD were removable in a socket. The data is still encrypted. So laptops being easier to steal and more mobile makes no bearing on the security argument. This argument is a red herring, because the encryption is what protects your data, NOT whether the SSD is soldered (someone could easily get the chip off the board if that's that were the only thing stopping them from getting your data, but luckily Apple has designed better security systems than that.).

And Louis Rossman actually made a pretty good argument defending his position in my opinion. He made multiple video on it, but you admittedly did not watch it and described it as laughable without actually refuting the arguments he was making. You don't have to agree with me here, but I watched it shortly ago and he actually does address several of the very things that you're saying.

Again, I'm really not trying to come across in any sort of way as though I am attacking you. This is not my intention, I do not want this thread to become excessively heated over this issue. I just want to talk about the facts of this without resorting to ad hominems about this. I think we can have a civil discussion on this, and you're right: We can disagree about this, have different opinions, and still discuss them and unite about our use and interest in Apple products.

 

[Queen6]

If some component failure occurred on the logic board, how would you get your data? Apple would just replace your logic board.

Simple as that and if you dont backup your data, its on you. I'd prefer if the SSD was replaceable/upgradeable, equally that would come at a cost and while some do use Mac's professionally 90% do not and therefore value pricing over such redundancy. Base models have now gone to a single Nand chip for obvious reason, pricing...

As the performance of Mac's has significantly increased I now spend less as my demand has not equally increased. While Louis does have some good points, he is clearly and disproportionally against Apple with his channel simply a vehicle of profit.

While Apple has dropped the ball over the years they have also designed & produced some very decent hardware. TBH with the current crop of portable Mac's I have little to no complaint, nor do I expect them to fold anytime soon...

Q-6

 

[Pedro147]

Like @chabig said that’s what backups are for. The global tech industry runs backup software utilizing various techniques from companies like NetApp, etc and it’s a huge/valuable business.

Consumers these days know if they need to backup and Apple, Google, and Microsoft make it easy to utilize cloud backups. So while I completely understand your mindset the days that this is actually a common concern are niche.

This is not only about backups and data preservation, as important as that is. It’s about device longevity and repairability of some very expensive laptops.

 

[Pedro147]

Better question is, when is the last time someones SSD died? Outside of anomalies most will last longer than the life of the machine especially in Apple’s case when it can’t be moved from computer to computer.

I don’t mind Louis but he obviously has an agenda and as someone who grew up building pc’s I just don’t care anymore about swapping parts but I do expect them to last. If I felt strongly about it I simply wouldn’t buy it.

Many Macbook SSD’s die daily worldwide, main reason being that the voltage regulator that provides the 2.5v that powers the NAND’s (storage chip for macOC and data for the uninitiated) has a terrible internal design. The input voltage for that regulator is ~12.6v and it outputs 2.5v to power the NAND’s as stated. These two pins in this chip are RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER, and often the 12.6v goes into the 2.5v output line and blow the NAND’s. It only takes one of the 4-6 NAND’s to suffer this indignity and none of the others will work. Louis explained all this. He also explained that some of the firmware required for booting is stored in the NAND’s so if one is damaged you cannot boot from an external drive like you could on earlier Macbooks.

 

[throAU]

Simple as that and if you dont backup your data, its on you. I'd prefer if the SSD was replaceable/upgradeable, equally that would come at a cost and while some do use Mac's professionally 90% do not and therefore value pricing over such redundancy. Base models have now gone to a single Nand chip for obvious reason, pricing...

To be honest, I'd rather they just RMA the entire machine and hand me a new one (rather than a logic board replacement).

Rather than waiting for them to disassemble and swap parts, I could be up and running in half an hour (basically sign into machine with iCloud to get up and running with my data and restore other things I don't necessarily sync from my backup). I'd lose maybe half a day of screwing around including a trip to the Apple Store if that was to happen.

Any time you hand over hardware for repair you should have a backup. You plain just should have a backup anyway due to the concerns regarding fire, theft, act of coffee, etc.

If the thought of your machine (be it windows, Mac, phone or whatever) dying a horrible death has you concerned about data loss in any way, fix that. Back up your stuff. 4TB external drives are cheap; your time and life's financials, work, memories, etc. are not.

 

[throAU]

Actually I'd probably lose less time than that as I'd just pull out my iPad and carry on while the machine was synchronising (all my important stuff is in iCloud and/or oneDrive anyway).

 

[Queen6]

To be honest, I'd rather they just RMA the entire machine and hand me a new one (rather than a logic board replacement).

Rather than waiting for them to disassemble and swap parts, I could be up and running in half an hour (basically sign into machine with iCloud to get up and running with my data and restore other things I don't necessarily sync from my backup). I'd lose maybe half a day of screwing around including a trip to the Apple Store if that was to happen.

Any time you hand over hardware for repair you should have a backup. You plain just should have a backup anyway due to the concerns regarding fire, theft, act of coffee, etc.

If the thought of your machine (be it windows, Mac, phone or whatever) dying a horrible death has you concerned about data loss in any way, fix that. Back up your stuff. 4TB external drives are cheap; your time and life's financials, work, memories, etc. are not.

I'd just replace it as the value of the data far exceeds the hardware. Just log into the cloud server and let it get on with it. Old Mac's & PC's go to family and friends after being thoroughly wiped. Never had much issue with the Mac which has promoted me to stick with the brand...

Q-6

 

[Queen6]

Actually I'd probably lose less time than that as I'd just pull out my iPad and carry on while the machine was synchronising (all my important stuff is in iCloud and/or oneDrive anyway).

I dont personally subscribe to iCloud as have my own p2p solution. Only danger is to misplace the keycode as would be near impossible to access the data as per design.

While iCloud is reasonably secure, if anyone can decrypt the data it's Apple. The private solution will take billions of years to crack and then some...

Q-6

 

[throAU]

I dont personally subscribe to iCloud as have my own p2p solution. Only danger is to misplace the keycode as would be near impossible to access the data as per design.

While iCloud is reasonably secure, if anyone can decrypt the data it's Apple. The private solution will take billions of years to crack and then some...

Q-6

My philosophy with that is that if Apple want my iCloud data (or data on my Apple device I DONT have in iCloud for that matter), they already own all my devices and could just get it out of the endpoints (for those who think otherwise, they could push a malicious update to any/all my devices at any time as they have the private keys for the root of trust). Ditto for MS, Google, etc. - for devices running OS provided by those vendors.

Basically if you use an MS operating system you may as well trust 365/Azure/MS Services. If you use Apple you may as well trust iCloud because even if you don't use it, if Apple are malicious they could get your data off your machines anyway). And if you run android/whatever Google's desktop OS is - you may as well trust Google. Because like it or not, they own your platform.

Any vendor responsible for the security of your endpoint owns you basically so make your choice or run something like Qubes - not connected to the internet.

Don't get me wrong, I have data not in iCloud and on private sync services as well, but it's not really due to security. It's more due to sync bandwidth vs. amount of data.

 

[Analog Kid]

most of the computer industry has been doing this successfully without reliability issues for decades

The computer industry has been doing it for decades with reliability issues.

It's remarkable that so many people here buy Apple products presumably because they provide a combination of form factor, features and reliability that they value but at the same time think it would be easy for Apple to just make a few changes they thought of in their heads without sacrificing any of that.

(I'm referring more so to the pro, and specifically the larger Pro models where the size constraints are nowhere near as limiting)

Which is a different tradeoff you'd make-- you'd sacrifice form factor, design efficiency, reliability and/or battery life to have a module in there. That is the point I've been making— there is a difference between wanting something different and denying engineering facts to denigrate what is. Apple chose form factor, design efficiency, reliability and/or battery life over modularity because it appears the bulk of their customers prefer that tradeoff.

Maybe you'd argue, the impact would be small-- but I don't have a desire to sacrifice any of those things.

As I said in one of the very first replies to you: there are upsides and downsides and this design gives me the upsides I want with downsides I and most of the people I know don't care about.

Apple themselves has solved this problem in the Mac Studio and on the Mac Pro, where they do have socketed SSD modules and they are encrypted.

Here too, I get confused by people's reasoning. Isn't this proof that Apple is well aware of sockets? I wonder why they didn't make the same "greedy" decision on the Studio that they did on the MBP... My experience tells me it is because the Studio has plenty of space and sits on a desk so isn't subjected to continuous mechanical stresses and vibrations thus are less likely to experience failures and the repair by replace economics probably change when you’re looking at an Ultra class processor— so less likely to suffer socket failures, more expensive to replace the logic board, different design choice.

Yet people keep tying themselves in knots to find a less obvious reason.

We've all been a bit heated on this thread, but I think we can agree to disagree on some things and still see eye to eye on others. Anyway, have a good night.

I haven't detected any heat from you. I'm a bit frustrated by having to repeat things I've already said, and to have put the effort into a detailed explanation only to be told “nuh-uh”, but you've been polite.

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

You are criticizing his use of the word defect, but I fail to see how you've established that he's actually wrong (other than that you are criticizing non-related things like his use of certain words, or whether he has enough software engineering experience in your eyes). I also asked you before specifically if you could answer the question that I had with regards to whether security and repairability were necessarily mutually exclusive on this particular issue, but I'll rephrase it here:

Apple allows SSDs to be replaced on the mac studio and on the Mac Pro. Are they cutting corners for security (or even reliability) on these products, the most expensive products that they sell? And if not, then how is it that repairability and security are mutually exclusive for their other products, but aren't for their most expensive products where they do allow SSDs to be repaired or replaced?

This is one of the points Rossman (and to an extent, folks like myself also) have been making, and nobody has been able to prove this point wrong. It doesn't matter what Rossman's intentions are, we can speculate on that. But I want to talk about whether he's right. Whether he's using certain words in the English language the right way is completely irrelevant to this point.

Agree.

Most attacks on Rossman revolve around his person and the fact that he makes money as a YouTuber.

Rossman could be 13, never had a job outside YouTube, or repaired a Mac, and most of what he points out would still be valid concerns.

You can’t debunk an argument just because the person making it lacks what you or anyone else considers valid merit.

And Rossman butchering certain words or concepts doesn’t grant you a pass on explaining why the core of his argument(s) on soldering SSDs is wrong.

 

[throAU]

Rossman could be 13, never had a job outside YouTube, or repaired a Mac, and most of what he points out would still be valid concerns.

They're concerns sure, but there are totally valid reasons for this and it is a trade-off. The reason I called it rage-bait is because it's totally one-sided.

I mean sure, as an electronics repairman he probably has no exposure to the reality of the surveillance state and isn't considering this sort of thing as his day job - but that doesn't mean the trade-offs do not exist. Ditto for most people here.

Like I said before, open, modifiable hardware exists. It has vulnerabilities in hardware that more closed devices do not. The spare parts being keyed to devices is part of this.

 

[laptech]

I have first hand experience of working in electronic device manufacturing and I can tell you for a fact that going from removable storage to soldered storage has absolutely nothing to do with security of the device but everything to do with cost cutting. When a company is making millions of devices, removing an SSD M2 connector can save the company millions because not only are they doing away with the physical connector, they are also doing away with the removable storage which the company has to pay for as well. Having a physical connector on the PCB also means the PCB has to be designed in a certain way, not only it's physical placement but also all the voltage lines and data lines that have to go to it. Do away with the physical connector and it allows the PCB designers more freedom in reducing the size of the overall PCB, again a cost saving measure, smaller PCB means cheaper cost.

Apple would have saved millions of $$$ by removing the physical SSD connector on their motherboards because out goes the cost of the physical part and out goes the cost of the physical SSD storage itself but yet the price they charge customers for the machine increases. How does Apple deflect criticism of this? by saying it improves efficiency and security. It's utter rubbish.

Why do I know it's utter rubbish? because I used to work for a company called Mitac who had contracts to make laptop and desktop motherboards for Packard Bell, Dell, HP and Sun Microsystems and working for a motherboard manufacturer you get to see, read and hear things that the public do not.

Another thing to note, those who have worked in product manufacturing will know that a core function of the manufacturer is to find ways to reduce the cost of it's BOM (Bill of materials) because this helps to reduce the overall costs of running the factory. The BOM is a list of EVERYTHING that goes into making the product, the solder on the pcb, all the surface mount and throughhole components, screws, nuts and bolts, plastics, rubber, screens, glue, tapes, EVERYTHING.

SSD M2 connectors vary in cost but lets for argument say they cost $0.50 each. Then you have the cost of the SSD, so again lets for argument say a 500Mb SSD M2 costs $60 (remember these are trade costs, manufacturers never pay retail costs). Lets say Apple manufacturer 1.5 million machines in the first year.

$0.50 x 1.5 million = $750,000
$60 x 1.5 million = $90 million

$750,000 + $90 million = $90,750,000

and that is just for TWO parts that went into building the machine, two parts that got removed when the company went to soldered on SSD's. So removing just those two parts makes a saving to Apple of $90,750,000. Do you honestly think Apple is not going to take that saving? This is why Apple and other laptop manufacturers went to soldered on SSD's and it has nothing to do with efficiency and security.
(Note: Please understand the above example is hypothetical because the actual costs of the parts are not known, just prices taken from various parts sites).

People need to understand it is all about cost saving, nothing more, nothing less and NOTHING to do with security.

 

[Xiaojohn]

perhaps he can repair his property light bulbs, instead of replace it.

 

[laptech]

The problem Louis has is that of many people in the same situation, past behavior/actions judges peoples behavior towards them in the present which means no amount of sense they make will ever get noticed or recognized. This is so evident in this thread with people saying Louis is making a very good point about Apple whereas other are saying they outright refuse to watch the video or decide to make fun of him because of who he is and what he has done.

 

[soulfreeze]

I dont get some of the logic on this thread, so someone please explain to me.
If the main reason why apple is using proprietary non standard storage is just for security and making it harder for attackers to get a hold of the data, then why is it, that when drive failure is brought up, we are encouraging people to backup to cloud or external usb storage devices? doesnt that defeat the entire purpose of having proprietary soldered on hardware and secure enclave features? And if you really care about apples security hardware tech and rely on it, you actually would not want to back up the data to a regular old time machine drive, you would keep data on device where its protected. Which makes the concern of data loss very valid as I'm sure apple doesn't make external storage with their proprietary security tech (yet).

You cant advocate for apples amazing hardware security, yet when the concern of data loss and hardware failure is brought up, your answer is "just make a time machine backup" which implies making a copy of the data to less secure regular storage devices. If however, backing up to normal storage is safe enough for you, then i don't see why it isn't safe enough to be used on the device.

 

[MayaUser]

What about our parts from our cars Louis?Cars that should be even more reliable and last more than our Apple devices If my cpu or ssd is dying on my EQS i bet the whole unit has to be change and the cost is a lot more than a Apple single device and data is also lost if its not back up....so stop trying to place Apple in a bad window since a lot larger and expenses segments are doing the same thing. So please make this statement in general not just for Apple itself

 

[laptech]

What about our parts from our cars Louis?Cars that should be even more reliable and last more than our Apple devices If my cpu or ssd is dying on my EQS i bet the whole unit has to be change and the cost is a lot more than a Apple single device and data is also lost if its not back up....so stop trying to place Apple in a bad window since a lot larger and expenses segments are doing the same thing. So please make this statement in general not just for Apple itself

Your argument is not valid because a cars EQS was never designed to have serviceable or even replacement storage parts that could be changed by the owner unlike that of a laptop.

 

[arw]

@l.a.rossmann 1st: keep up the great work!
2nd: from your experience, is there anything to prolong or minimize the risk of a SSD failure/short on a A2141? Besides keeping it in a drawer…

edit: typo

 

[FreakinEurekan]

Why do Americans pronounce Soldered as "sar-dud" rather than "Soul-derr-d"? They literally miss out the entire middle part of the word.

LEF-tenant? Al-u-min-i-um? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ English is just a weird language, no matter where you live.

 

[ric22]

The idea that devices must have soldered and highly wearable components such as SSDs for thinness is such a braindead argument.

In phones it is apparently because of thinness and cost.

I hate soldered components, and would happily forgo the soldered RAM performance benefits as they're insignificant to regular users.

 

[3166792]

What about our parts from our cars Louis?Cars that should be even more reliable and last more than our Apple devices If my cpu or ssd is dying on my EQS i bet the whole unit has to be change and the cost is a lot more than a Apple single device and data is also lost if its not back up....so stop trying to place Apple in a bad window since a lot larger and expenses segments are doing the same thing. So please make this statement in general not just for Apple itself

He does. Rossmann has been a very vocal advocate of right to repair across all brands and industries.

 

[maflynn]

He does. Rossmann has been a very vocal advocate of right to repair across all brands and industries.

I will say, for his efforts, he's tilting at windmills as the saying goes. The industry is moving towards making these disposable. Apple, Dell, HP makes money on sales, not upgrades. He picks on Apple, because I think he made a good amount of money repairing Macs and that is coming to a close