Louis Rossman on soldered SSD

[philipma1957]

If SSD drives were failing daily across the world I would like to think there would be a little more exposure especially on forums like this but it’s seemingly few and far between unless the age of the device is older. Honestly it’s impossible to quantify unless you have the Apple metrics.

You’re absolutely correct about everything else but like I said that’s Apple and until folks have a bad experience and decide to move on most people don’t care. If anything consumers expect their Apple devices to last forever or at least until their device is no longer supported. Maybe that’s what Apple is doing all along…aligning software support with expected hardware longevity so you don’t feel bad when your computer dies because it wasn’t being supported anyway. Consumers feel like they got their money worth and Apple gets paid again. If those same people wanted to swap parts out they wouldn’t have bought an Apple product.

they are failing across the world on a daily basis. But the percentage is small enough that no one cares.

Look at the Mac minis as compared to a Lenovo tiny . You can swap ssd you can swap ram. some actually allow a discrete gpu. the p3 can go to an intel 13900T cpu it can do 64 gb ram 8tb ssd and a Nvidia t1000 gpu. All swappable.

Both it and the Mac mini sell well. Apple made the decision to not work like the Lenovo Tiny and the public has supported it. Ask me If I like what they did.

No I don't . But I own Mac minis and Lenovo tiny's depends on what I want them to do.

 

[ArkSingularity]

You're correct on everything you mentioned on your comment, however it's closer to 10,000 writes per block. Enterprise-class drives might have even higher numbers.

That was for the older SLC and MLC drives. Today's TLC drives are much closer to the ballpark of 1,000 writes per block, but that's usually plenty given the highly advanced wear leveling and built-in over-provisioning (as well as SLC caches) that have gone into modern SSDs.

 

[Phil A.]

Speaking personally, I view my laptop as an appliance (same as my phone or my iPad) and I value light weight and solidity over repairability / upgradeability - if it breaks catastrophically, I'll get it fixed or replaced under AppleCare and then when I get it back I will just restore the latest backup and get on with my life.

I don't consider the data on my laptop the primary long term version of my local data - that is on my NAS where my laptop backs up to every hour. The NAS itself is backed up to 3 different cloud providers every 4 hours.

Most of my documents are stored in Office365 OneDrive which is also backed up every 4 hours to my NAS and then on to 3 different cloud providers

My view has always been not "if" but "when" you'll lose data and I've always taken steps to make sure it's backed up - having the SSD soldered doesn't affect that mindset one way or another

I've built PCs for years and built my own gaming PC (where I appreciate the ability to upgrade it, etc) but I simply don't view my laptop in the same way and haven't for the last 10 or 15 years: The last time I replaced anything in a laptop was my daughter's old polycarbonate MacBook where I put a new battery and SSD in it out of nostalgia to get it running again, but that was far from a current laptop!

 

[Howard2k]

You back up every night, outside of at work? Really?

If you do, you're 1 in 1,000.

You don't? Time Machine automates this. I'm amazed that people don't use this super simple feature.

 

[Analog Kid]

This guy again?

I would actually EXPECT that someone who makes money via repairs would prefer that companies make their systems more repairable. Rather than, you know, see that the business is trending down and get into another line of business.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he makes his money ranting conspiracies on YouTube. The repair business is just a beard.

 

[Appleandy]

Better question is, when is the last time someones SSD died? Outside of anomalies most will last longer than the life of the machine especially in Apple’s case when it can’t be moved from computer to computer.

I don’t mind Louis but he obviously has an agenda and as someone who grew up building pc’s I just don’t care anymore about swapping parts but I do expect them to last. If I felt strongly about it I simply wouldn’t buy it.

I worked in an APR and it was more common then you think

 

[Naraxus]

Like @chabig said that’s what backups are for. The global tech industry runs backup software utilizing various techniques from companies like NetApp, etc and it’s a huge/valuable business.

Consumers these days know if they need to backup and Apple, Google, and Microsoft make it easy to utilize cloud backups. So while I completely understand your mindset the days that this is actually a common concern are niche.

So it doesn't bother you at all that Apple has made design changes that fail at a significantly higher rate than previous designs?

 

[Appleandy]

Apple just want a monopoly over the spec.

Want a bigger storage? Should have bought the right size

Upgrade earlier and enjoy your designed in obsolescence

 

[GMShadow]

You don't? Time Machine automates this. I'm amazed that people don't use this super simple feature.

It's a little trickier on laptops as Apple's retired the Time Capsules, and most router backups that are Time Machine compatible use AFP (which is being deprecated), not SMB.

But the concept of 'data you don't have backed up is data you don't care about' remains as true now as it ever was.

 

[BigMcGuire]

You don't? Time Machine automates this. I'm amazed that people don't use this super simple feature.

Most Mac users I talk to don't even know it exists (non-technical people for the most part). I have a 4TB SSD hooked up to my MBP all day long for constant TimeMachine backups. That and everything important to me is either on OneDrive (Work) or iCloud (Personal).

I've done full system restores with TimeMachine. It's amazing, especially with a nice fast SSD.


On the topic of the thread... I find Rossmann's videos very informative but yeah a lot of the videos over the last few years turn into an Apple bash fest, I imagine that really helps drive views. Can't blame him for wanting to make $ (I would). I find I agree with him on a lot of the videos I watch (Reddit, etc) and I miss the earlier videos of him soldering boards and what not.

 

[NT1440]

So it doesn't bother you at all that Apple has made design changes that fail at a significantly higher rate than previous designs?

They don’t, where is your evidence for this?

 

[EmotionalSnow]

Yes, but that doesn't remove the fact that there may be data on the drive that you need access which may not be backed up.

Well, then they should have been backed up. A removable SSD won't save your MacBook from thieves or from a SSD failure with fatal data loss.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Most Mac users I talk to don't even know it exists (non-technical people for the most part). I have a 4TB SSD hooked up to my MBP all day long for constant TimeMachine backups. That and everything important to me is either on OneDrive (Work) or iCloud (Personal).

I've done full system restores with TimeMachine. It's amazing, especially with a nice fast SSD.


On the topic of the thread... I find Rossmann's videos very informative but yeah a lot of the videos over the last few years turn into an Apple bash fest, I imagine that really helps drive views so can't blame him for wanting to make $ (I would). I find I agree with him on a lot of the videos I watch (Reddit, etc) and I miss the earlier videos of him soldering boards and what not.

I don't really blame him for being irritated at the repairability of more recent Apple products TBH. I'm not really a huge fan of that trend myself. I like to tinker with things and fix things when I can, and while technology has gotten more compact (which inherently does make this harder), I feel strongly as though a lot of decisions have been made to arbitrarily make this harder.

It does, at times, feel anti consumer. There are a lot of folks who will bash Apple just because they want to, but when repairability and serviceability has been the norm for decades and it gets taken away, there is bound to be a lot of pushback on that. I think that one really falls more on Apple than it falls on the folks who are pushing back, as much as I hate to admit it. Apple took a calculated risk going the route they chose to go, and the criticism they've received for some of these decisions has, for the most part, generally been fair.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I don't really blame him for being irritated at the repairability of more recent Apple products to be honest. I'm not really a huge fan of that trend myself. I like to tinker with things and fix things when I can, and while technology has gotten more compact (which inherently does make this harder), I feel strongly as though a lot of decisions have been made to arbitrarily make this harder.

It does, at times, feel anti consumer. There are a lot of folks who will bash Apple just because they want to, but when repairability and serviceability has been the norm for decades and it gets taken away, there is bound to be a lot of pushback on that. I think that one really falls more on Apple than it falls on the folks who are pushing back, as much as I hate to admit it.

Agreed. The way I see it, everything is heading towards one use and toss - industry wide. If the world was perfect, we'd have machines building and recycling everything for a perfect loop, but we don't. People want super thin devices. MOST people don't care about upgrading so companies cater to the masses.

I love my M1 Max 64GB 4TB MBP very much. Best laptop I've ever used. Would love to have the ability to upgrade the internals if I could to extend its life (as it is, I don't see upgrading this thing for the next 2-3 years (currently ~1.6 years old)).

I also agree, the changes that Apple has done has probably hurt his repair business so his videos may not be $ focused but real frustration.

 

[TechnoMonk]

He goes into M1/2 macs using NANDs that are different from any other computer, how they short to ground, and if your SSD dies, you can't fix it unless you're willing to spend around $1,000 on a repair. He gets really detailed on the engineering, and it's pretty crazy what Apple is doing, to save a few bucks during the manufacturing process.

Another clickbait YouTuber to ignore.

 

[SilvioInfante]

if your SSD dies

Not even a remotely realistic concern.

it's pretty crazy what Apple is doing

Not at all, it makes perfect sense.

to save a few bucks during the manufacturing process.

Has absolutely nothing to do with that. It is entirely about the design goals of the machine. Whoever told you that it is to save money on the fab process is lying to you.

 

[TechnoMonk]

I treat apple silicon devices as a full blown NVidia GPU with storage. You have RAM packaged with SOC, Storage as part of the device. If you need an upgradable and repair friendly devices, Apple should be your last choice. I like my Workstations upgradable and repairable, last Mac Pro or Max Mini I bought was over a decade ago. I like my AMD workstation with 4090. It’s funny no one is complaining about GPU which costs 2K failing and not repairable. I had to replace a 4090 recently, thanks to my Microcenter warranty, I didn’t pay anything.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

IMHO, majority rules. While Louis speaks a lot of truth, it's just not going to mean much to the majority of consumers who don't run into much issues.

With the exception of known recalls, Apple's build quality and QC has been excellent for decades. Now if that ends up changing drastically for the worst, then Louis's rants would have a lot more mainstream attention.

Louis does have influence though. He's one of he reasons I didn't buy a One Wheel.

 

[Analog Kid]

That was for the older SLC and MLC drives. Today's TLC drives are much closer to the ballpark of 1,000 writes per block, but that's usually plenty given the highly advanced wear leveling and built-in over-provisioning (as well as SLC caches) that have gone into modern SSDs.

Does anyone have actual data on SSD failures? Asking the Apple Genius probably isn't the right reference given that their job is to receive the failed units from the entire surrounding area-- of course they're seeing some. Of the millions of macs, they see the hundreds that fail.

Most of what I can find industry wide though is anecdotal.

It does, at times, feel anti consumer. There are a lot of folks who will bash Apple just because they want to, but when repairability and serviceability has been the norm for decades and it gets taken away, there is bound to be a lot of pushback on that. I think that one really falls more on Apple than it falls on the folks who are pushing back, as much as I hate to admit it. Apple took a calculated risk going the route they chose to go, and the criticism they've received for some of these decisions has, for the most part, generally been fair.

Here's the thing though. My above comment on not being able to find good failure data aside, connectors, and essentially anything that can move, are a source of failure. Less parts, particularly less moving parts, the more reliable something is. So while it's harder to repair yourself, it's also probably less likely that you'd need to.

More reliable, lower profile, higher performance, larger battery. All wins from soldering parts to the board. The downside is that the very small number of people who like to tinker, can't.

People seem to always want to believe business is a zero sum game-- for the company to win, the consumer has to lose. Apple is one of the most profitable companies on earth, therefore it must be because they're tricking us. That is absolutely and demonstrably false. For the company to win, the consumer has to find value in their products and for the transaction to close both sides need to win.

I know you personally are not advocating this zero-sum attitude, by the way...

The failure rate on the Dells I see around me is astronomical compared to the Macs. The reaction those people seem to have is "see how important it is that I can open and replace parts?" rather than "I wonder why that Mac over there never needed to be opened in the first place."

 

[TechnoMonk]

Does anyone have actual data on SSD failures? Asking the Apple Genius probably isn't the right reference given that their job is to receive the failed units from the entire surrounding area-- of course they're seeing some. Of the millions of macs, they see the hundreds that fail.

Most of what I can find industry wide though is anecdotal.



Here's the thing though. My above comment on not being able to find good failure data aside, connectors, and essentially anything that can move, are a source of failure. Less parts, particularly less moving parts, the more reliable something is. So while it's harder to repair yourself, it's also probably less likely that you'd need to.

More reliable, lower profile, higher performance, larger battery. All wins from soldering parts to the board. The downside is that the very small number of people who like to tinker, can't.

People seem to always want to believe business is a zero sum game-- for the company to win, the consumer has to lose. Apple is one of the most profitable companies on earth, therefore it must be because they're tricking us. That is absolutely and demonstrably false. For the company to win, the consumer has to find value in their products and for the transaction to close both sides need to win.

I know you personally are not advocating this zero-sum attitude, by the way...

The failure rate on the Dells I see around me is astronomical compared to the Macs. The reaction those people seem to have is "see how important it is that I can open and replace parts?" rather than "I wonder why that Mac over there never needed to be opened in the first place."

I don’t have data, but so far I didn’t have an SSD fail on my MBA or MBP in past 12-13 years. I have had so many issues with drives failing in 2009 Mac mini and original retina MBP. I was forced to buy a MBP in 2015, because of reliability issues with HDD. I do push my computers to the limit, and so far SSD has been so much more reliable than HDD. My MBA from 2011 still runs fine, though I retired it. My Think pad work gave me few years back failed in 3 years.

 

[Webster's Mac]

First, he’s talking about T2 MacBook pros. I watched the whole video, and don’t remember him mentioning M-series macs. They may be different and/or not have this problem.

Second, soldering the SSD has no real performance benefit. Sure, they outperformed the competition in 2016-2018 or so. But now it’s 2023 and socketed SSDs perform just as well, and will possibly soon be faster.

Third, he said his shop sees several MacBook pros with this issue per week. That is absolutely unacceptable for a 2018/2019 year machine. For $2500-3k or so, you should be getting double the lifespan out of the machine.

Apple could make the SSDs socketed. They do in the Mac Studio. But they’d rather sell you an $800 (or more) refurbished logic board (which has used NAND and I have confirmed that myself after getting mine replaced through apple) or better yet, a new machine. All to feed the $$$$ train

 

[leman]

Apple SSDs are so incredibly unreliable that Apple is willing to sell you a multi-year extended warranty for $99 (which includes accidental damage). For this to make any economical sense the expected SSD failure rate must be around 10 years. There is zero evidence that soldered-on SSDs result in premature system aging or death.

And Rossman? This guy literally makes money by creating controversy around Apple, and he aggressively manipulates the audience to achieve his PR goals. This “expert” lost all his credibility in my eyes when he was bashing MacBooks for the USB interference problems that “no other laptops have”, while any computer repairman worth anything is perfectly aware that these issues are not only commonplace but also caused by conflict in the standards themselves. Not to mention that he openly admits to smuggling potentially defective and dangerous components to use in his repairs. Why anyone would trust this charlatan is beyond me.

 

[clayj]

I always thought the MAIN reason Apple did this sort of thing was to prevent people from buying the cheapest storage or RAM option from them and then buying a cheaper third-party upgrade solution -- like I did with my HP workstation (bought the minimum amount of RAM from HP, upgraded to max RAM capacity using Micron RAM). Of course the other reasons are also equally valid.

He is definitely making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Webster's Mac]

Apple SSDs are so incredibly unreliable that Apple is willing to sell you a multi-year extended warranty for $99 (which includes accidental damage). For this to make any economical sense the expected SSD failure rate must be around 10 years. There is zero evidence that soldered-on SSDs result in premature system aging or death.

And Rossman? This guy literally makes money by creating controversy around Apple, and he aggressively manipulates the audience to achieve his PR goals. This “expert” lost all his credibility in my eyes when he was bashing MacBooks for the USB interference problems that “no other laptops have”, while any computer repairman worth anything is perfectly aware that these issues are not only commonplace but also caused by conflict in the standards themselves. Not to mention that he openly admits to smuggling potentially defective and dangerous components to use in his repairs. Why anyone would trust this charlatan is beyond me.

Apple sells a warranty for $300 for 3 years. Apple can easily give you a refurbished logic board for less than that. There are extended warranties on everything, regardless of quality. They have done the math. They know how to make a profit on it even if something fails a lot

 

[Analog Kid]

Apple could make the SSDs socketed. They do in the Mac Studio.

Then the Studio is the machine for you.

Unless there's something else that's different... Not sure what it would be, though. The Studio fits nicely on a tray table, right?