Lunar Lake +$100 to add 16GB LPDDR5X-8533MHz vs M3 +$400 to add 16GB slower LPDDR5-6400MHz

[eltoslightfoot]

Like I get it if all you have is this one Mac and you have to use it for gaming as well--except that very few people do that. Most Mac owners who like to game get a cheaper Mac for productivity and get a console or gaming PC/gaming laptop. Or they can just afford the best of both. But I bet most usage stats show way lower gaming percentages on MacOS than MacOS percentages for general ownership or market share.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

If price was the main issue for all consumers, the lowest cost of everything would sell most, which apparently isn't the case, people still go to Starbucks and the like. Some brands are not solely price sensitive to demand, perhaps that's new to some people?

I hate to "well, akshually" your example, but that is sort of the point. Since our "non-recession" recession began, people have become price sensitive to the extreme. Starbucks patronage is down, and people are waiting for deals in the PC world before buying.

It has even shown up in the Apple world a little differently. I saw a study that showed that people are hanging on to Apple products longer than ever. I'll see if I can dig it up.

I know it affected my buying patterns. I refuse to pay Apple's Mac upgrade prices any more. I will stick with Windows and save that money!

Edit: Found the link! https://www.macrumors.com/2024/07/10/apple-users-keeping-their-devices-for-longer/

 

[AirpodsNow]

I know it affected my buying patterns. I refuse to pay Apple's Mac upgrade prices any more. I will stick with Windows and save that money!

Edit: Found the link! https://www.macrumors.com/2024/07/10/apple-users-keeping-their-devices-for-longer/

It’s fair enough. Less money for people than less buying of anything, including macs. There are more news article like this also about cars for example.

Whatever your preferred product that’s what you should stick to. I like the apple ecosystem and it works well with my entire family, so it’s hard to switch. Something simple like “screen sharing” with my parents to provide mac / iPhone / iPad support is something that is rather invaluable (no more endless annoying calls about “help me it doesn’t work”!). So what price is that worth? Told them if they get another brand I won’t help them!! Haha

Like I get it if all you have is this one Mac and you have to use it for gaming as well--except that very few people do that. Most Mac owners who like to game get a cheaper Mac for productivity and get a console or gaming PC/gaming laptop. Or they can just afford the best of both. But I bet most usage stats show way lower gaming percentages on MacOS than MacOS percentages for general ownership or market share.

I do hope people look at what they wish to accomplish and then choose the right tool. Most of us don’t like to tinker hours to get something running.

It’s baffling if people want windows or console games and buy a Mac. It’s a hard story. But for productivity and an Esther simple OS and when you want things just to work and a shop nearby to resolve issues, a Mac is rather a good deal. Hard to find anything else.

Unfortunately OP goes to stir up the feeling of Mac vs windows / pc is better/worse tribalism. It’s just sad, like why bother.

I don’t see many Mac users bother to show picture of pc laptop charging bricks with a meme “it’s 2024 why pc users still walk around with a brick” or something like that. The original post is too one sided and doesn’t really try to make a point that give a more balanced view or a point to discuss rather than simply arguing.

 

[leman]

Like I get it if all you have is this one Mac and you have to use it for gaming as well--except that very few people do that. Most Mac owners who like to game get a cheaper Mac for productivity and get a console or gaming PC/gaming laptop. Or they can just afford the best of both. But I bet most usage stats show way lower gaming percentages on MacOS than MacOS percentages for general ownership or market share.

That is a very interesting question and I would love to see some data on it! I am not sure that my intuition agrees with yours. I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of Mac users playing games were actually higher than the percentage of Windows users playing games. After all, Windows is the "default" computer, and most users don't game at all. But Macs are particularly popular with creatives, software developers, and young people, whom I'd expect to be more likely to play games on average. Either way, it could go either way.

Of course, the crucial definition is what constitutes "gaming". If we are talking about the users for whom playing games (especially skill-intensive games) is a major passion, that is very different from users who like to relax playing a session of Civ or Sims. I think a Mac is a very nice platform for that second type of gamer.

Myself, I have a Playstation for action games (although I rarely buy new games as I dislike most stuff on the market), but I play strategy and indie games on my Mac.

 

[AirpodsNow]

That is a very interesting question and I would love to see some data on it! I am not sure that my intuition agrees with yours. I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of Mac users playing games were actually higher than the percentage of Windows users playing games. After all, Windows is the "default" computer, and most users don't game at all. But Macs are particularly popular with creatives, software developers, and young people, whom I'd expect to be more likely to play games on average. Either way, it could go either way.

My complete guess is that MacBooks among US college students have increased. And as a ‘poor’ student, you try to do everything with one machine. I would squeeze everything out of it. I follow the apple silicon gaming options (hero launcher, whisky, ryujinx, play over Etc) and there are quite a lot of ways to game now (albeit with many limitations like limited online play), especially since M series chips have ‘better’ graphics since 2020 or so. As a student I would imagine I would also have try to do these ‘hacks’ many years ago. So I agree that percentage wise it might be higher than people assume.

I guess if you look at ’total’ number of socalled AAA games and look at what platform they play it on, it would be consoles & windows I assume. Linux (& steamdeck likes) and mac would be the smallest shares. I do wonder if you look at the total number of all games, including mobile, it might be a different picture all together.

I have been playing Elden Ring for a few weeks now, as a casual gamer being able to use the Mac is fantastic (m1 pro). But online I can see how nice it is to actually have the ’online’ possibility with the extra messages from other players and being invaded sometimes To create more of a connection with other players. Currently the anti cheat.exe stuff wouldn’t work on Whisky, not sure about crossover. Also playing Cities Skyline 1 was great using Parallels.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I don’t see many Mac users bother to show picture of pc laptop charging bricks with a meme “it’s 2024 why pc users still walk around with a brick” or something like that. The original post is too one sided and doesn’t really try to make a point that give a more balanced view or a point to discuss rather than simply arguing.

I see that all the time. Mac users (of which I am technically one as I have an M1 MBP I don't use) are always commenting (negatively) on the thickness and size of my beastly laptop--or ones like it. Ah well, we all have different reasons for buying what we buy.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

That is a very interesting question and I would love to see some data on it! I am not sure that my intuition agrees with yours. I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of Mac users playing games were actually higher than the percentage of Windows users playing games. After all, Windows is the "default" computer, and most users don't game at all. But Macs are particularly popular with creatives, software developers, and young people, whom I'd expect to be more likely to play games on average. Either way, it could go either way.

Of course, the crucial definition is what constitutes "gaming". If we are talking about the users for whom playing games (especially skill-intensive games) is a major passion, that is very different from users who like to relax playing a session of Civ or Sims. I think a Mac is a very nice platform for that second type of gamer.

Myself, I have a Playstation for action games (although I rarely buy new games as I dislike most stuff on the market), but I play strategy and indie games on my Mac.

This means you would fit both of my categories LOL. You use a Mac for gaming and have a console!

 

[eltoslightfoot]

My complete guess is that MacBooks among US college students have increased. And as a ‘poor’ student, you try to do everything with one machine. I would squeeze everything out of it. I follow the apple silicon gaming options (hero launcher, whisky, ryujinx, play over Etc) and there are quite a lot of ways to game now (albeit with many limitations like limited online play), especially since M series chips have ‘better’ graphics since 2020 or so. As a student I would imagine I would also have try to do these ‘hacks’ many years ago. So I agree that percentage wise it might be higher than people assume.

I guess if you look at ’total’ number of socalled AAA games and look at what platform they play it on, it would be consoles & windows I assume. Linux (& steamdeck likes) and mac would be the smallest shares. I do wonder if you look at the total number of all games, including mobile, it might be a different picture all together.

I have been playing Elden Ring for a few weeks now, as a casual gamer being able to use the Mac is fantastic (m1 pro). But online I can see how nice it is to actually have the ’online’ possibility with the extra messages from other players and being invaded sometimes To create more of a connection with other players. Currently the anti cheat.exe stuff wouldn’t work on Whisky, not sure about crossover. Also playing Cities Skyline 1 was great using Parallels.

Yeah the anti cheat stuff is interesting. I couldn't do Apex Legends on Mac even if I wanted to. And on linux you can't do League of Legends anymore--maybe the same with Mac.

So many titles I play that I can't do on a Mac due to anti cheat nonsense. Of course back when I had my iBook, about all I could play on it was Starcraft LOL.

But if you want high frame rates, It's pretty much Windows with Nvidia....

 

[Ethosik]

So much time spent about gaming on non-gaming equipment. Just get something with a dedicated graphics card.

Agreed. Want to play games here and there and use a Mac, good the option is there. Want to max out FPS and settings? Get a Windows PC. I absolutely HATE windows and I have a gaming PC for this reason.

 

[Ethosik]

It has even shown up in the Apple world a little differently. I saw a study that showed that people are hanging on to Apple products longer than ever. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Same with me, with the prices increasing on everything I have dropped almost all streaming services and plan to use my personal systems as long as possible. It is starting to impact my clients too and further impacting my work.

 

[leman]

This means you would fit both of my categories LOL. You use a Mac for gaming and have a console!

What’s funny is that I initially went the gaming PC route, but the experience setting things up with my projector was so frustrating that I returned it after a few days.

 

[genexx]

Oh, a brand new thread to denigrate mac products and with so many brand new arguments from people who don't work with them and therefore of course can't recognize the core competencies of a Mac and have never heard that you can calculate hardware against tax.

I make a living since decades from the use of Mac´s and o boy if i calculate this against the buying cost´s it is a serious good investment.

Ok, if you want to play games privately, you don't need a Mac.
If I had to cut video in 4k or create 3d professionally then I wouldn't use a mac either.

But nobody is forced to do that.

And now?

I wouldn't use a hammer if I needed pliers and then cry because the hammer isn't a good pair of pliers, but hey...
I have a lot of PC´s also but if i can i use Linux on them.
My Daughter uses some of our PC´s as Render Farm sometimes.

In all this Decades the Mac Hardware was lasting much longer than any PC Hardware and is therefore much cheaper in the long run.

And I mainly earn money with my Mac.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Oh, a brand new thread to denigrate mac products and with so many brand new arguments from people who don't work with them and therefore of course can't recognize the core competencies of a Mac and have never heard that you can calculate hardware against tax.

I make a living since decades from the use of Mac´s and o boy if i calculate this against the buying cost´s it is a serious good investment.

Ok, if you want to play games privately, you don't need a Mac.
If I had to cut video in 4k or create 3d professionally then I wouldn't use a mac either.

But nobody is forced to do that.

And now?

I wouldn't use a hammer if I needed pliers and then cry because the hammer isn't a good pair of pliers, but hey...
I have a lot of PC´s also but if i can i use Linux on them.
My Daughter uses some of our PC´s as Render Farm sometimes.

In all this Decades the Mac Hardware was lasting much longer than any PC Hardware and is therefore much cheaper in the long run.

And I mainly earn money with my Mac.

Oh, look, someone who hasn't actually read the thread in question or you would know that your assertion isn't true at all.

I have literally been a UNIX/Linux Admin and that was when I bought an iBook--because I could do UNIX-y things in the terminal. I have literally been multi-OS (including Solaris and various Linux flavors through the entire oughts). I have built my own Windows PCs since the days of WIndows 2000 Professional, and bought a Packard Bell before that and put a booster ATI card on it so I could play awesome games. I even remember switching between types of RAM to play Dune.

As far as "denigrating" mac products...only because it is true. You can't upgrade RAM after purchase. You can't upgrade SSD after purchase. You can't swap out the battery if it becomes old. You are stuck. It has absolutely become an appliance.

So, yes, when I can save literally thousands of dollars upgrading my RAM and SSD? I will definitely make clear that I am doing so. If "denigrating" is the truth, then I guess I am guilty? I just want the 2012 Mac back. That thing was so great!

Anyway, the point is that my Windows machines can literally do anything my MBP can do, plus games, etc.,

I am literally using a decade old PC as my cloud server right now! So....again, this isn't as straightforward as you try to say.

 

[leman]

As far as "denigrating" mac products...only because it is true. You can't upgrade RAM after purchase. You can't upgrade SSD after purchase. You can't swap out the battery if it becomes old. You are stuck. It has absolutely become an appliance.

I think the fallacy is assuming that these are universally useful or desired things. Since we are sharing personal anecdotes, I’ve been responsible for computer requisition for a mid-sized research department, and upgradeability was never even on the list of requirements. We cared about versatility, usability, and reliability (in terms of minimizing the support effort), which made Macs a natural choice for us.

Of course, other users might have different requirements.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I think the fallacy is assuming that these are universally useful or desired things. Since we are sharing personal anecdotes, I’ve been responsible for computer requisition for a mid-sized research department, and upgradeability was never even on the list of requirements. We cared about versatility, usability, and reliability (in terms of minimizing the support effort), which made Macs a natural choice for us.

Of course, other users might have different requirements.

That's fair. It's just for a long time, Apple Macs also were able to include those of us that valued versatility (boot camp), upgradeability (RAM and SSD was upgradeable), and a little cost effectiveness...

Clearly no longer.

 

[leman]

That's fair. It's just for a long time, Apple Macs also were able to include those of us that valued versatility (boot camp), upgradeability (RAM and SSD was upgradeable), and a little cost effectiveness...

Clearly no longer.

If those are your definitions, then yes, Mac does not satisfy your requirements anymore.

I believe there are very substantial advantages to soldered-on RAM and since I don’t care much about upgradeability that’s what I want in my computer. I agree with those wishing for modular SSDs, since they improve the serviceability of the machine. However, warranty as a subscription model (of which I am a big proponent) makes serviceability irrelevant. So I’m pretty much agnostic on the matter.

 

[Ethosik]

I think the fallacy is assuming that these are universally useful or desired things. Since we are sharing personal anecdotes, I’ve been responsible for computer requisition for a mid-sized research department, and upgradeability was never even on the list of requirements. We cared about versatility, usability, and reliability (in terms of minimizing the support effort), which made Macs a natural choice for us.

Of course, other users might have different requirements.

Many of my clients have a no upgrade policy. It messes with bulk ordering, OEM warranty and support, etc. that’s a you problem if you don’t anticipate your needs during the lifetime of the product ownership. And if something drastic would occur, companies would just order new units with higher specs.

 

[diamond.g]

Many of my clients have a no upgrade policy. It messes with bulk ordering, OEM warranty and support, etc. that’s a you problem if you don’t anticipate your needs during the lifetime of the product ownership. And if something drastic would occur, companies would just order new units with higher specs.

Removable storage, no cameras, and no WiFi are our biggest constraints on ordering hardware. I honestly hated doing RMA for hardware because most vendors expect you to give back a "full system" and we don't. You'd think by now that vendors that work with DoD would know these things...

I think at some point we may become more flexible on removable storage, at least until there is a spillage and then that may get walked back, haha.

 

[MRMSFC]

If those are your definitions, then yes, Mac does not satisfy your requirements anymore.

I believe there are very substantial advantages to soldered-on RAM and since I don’t care much about upgradeability that’s what I want in my computer. I agree with those wishing for modular SSDs, since they improve the serviceability of the machine. However, warranty as a subscription model (of which I am a big proponent) makes serviceability irrelevant. So I’m pretty much agnostic on the matter.

Honestly from a large business procurement perspective, the biggest issue with the Macs is probably compatibility with the software that they use to lock down the system and sheer volume of orders.

I know my work provided PC is strictly locked down, and I assume the software/firmware they use just isn’t workable on Macs.

That and lets face it, Dell and HP offer “good enough” hardware for negotiable prices and in massive quantities.

On the topic of upgradeability, serviceability, and repairability I have to strongly disagree with your statement on warranties covering it.

For example, I live in a largely rural area, and the nearest Apple-certified shop is hours away. Thankfully Apple has started shipping replacement parts finally, but if something goes wrong, it’s awfully inconvenient to do any repairs from home. Let alone Apples essential monopoly on replacement parts. (And their fight against right to repair to maintain that monopoly)

A “warranty as a subscription” model is not a solution for people like me, because that would mean going through Apple’s process of ordering a box, waiting to receive the box, packing up the device, shipping it back to Apple, waiting on them to repair it and ship it back to me.

And on top of that, paying Apple for the luxury of doing all of that. It’s a little insulting when, if in the past, it was an easy fix by replacing a part.

And in my opinion, Apple should excel in the “Prosumer” space. People and businesses not large enough to need enterprise support, but not devices meant for consuming content alone.

That category would greatly value availability of parts and ease of maintenance. It simply saves time and money, which is often in short supply.

Don’t get me wrong either, I love my Apple stuff. And I understand the necessity of things like soldered RAM with the M series processors. But something like the removable (and upgradeable) storage from the Mac Studio would be extremely beneficial in a MacBook Pro for example.

 

[lie2me]

One of the companies I worked for sold microprocessors and memory to Apple. I was privy to the prices we would charge Apple.
Apple always demanded extra testing of the chips to be sure they would not fail when installed in their computers. For that extra testing, we always charge Apple the highest prices for their parts. The extra testing took more time which justified the higher prices. You can debate whether the extra testing was necessary but when a part is soldered onto a mother board it can be pretty important. The SSD modules that Lenovo sells are sourced from someone else at lower prices obviously. They are also not soldered onto the motherboard so they can readily be replaced if they fail. We are paying a premium for Apple laptops that are more reliable and have a narrower form factor. I am still amazed at using an Apple M2 15 inch MacBook Air in silence without a fan ever running. Silence is golden.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

One of the companies I worked for sold microprocessors and memory to Apple. I was privy to the prices we would charge Apple.
Apple always demanded extra testing of the chips to be sure they would not fail when installed in their computers. For that extra testing, we always charge Apple the highest prices for their parts. The extra testing took more time which justified the higher prices. You can debate whether the extra testing was necessary but when a part is soldered onto a mother board it can be pretty important. The SSD modules that Lenovo sells are sourced from someone else at lower prices obviously. They are also not soldered onto the motherboard so they can readily be replaced if they fail. We are paying a premium for Apple laptops that are more reliable and have a narrower form factor. I am still amazed at using an Apple M2 15 inch MacBook Air in silence without a fan ever running. Silence is golden.

I hate to be the well actually guy, but SSD speeds are often slower in Macs than in Lenovo's laptops--primarily at the lowest SSD size.

Either way, you don't really know what Lenovo is doing and if Apple is additionally still even doing that.

 

[mi7chy]

I am still amazed at using an Apple M2 15 inch MacBook Air in silence without a fan ever running. Silence is golden.

That's because it doesn't have a fan but the trade-off is it throttles under sustained load which may be acceptable for light workloads like browsing and video streaming where it won't probably matter. For heavier workloads, it means longer wait time for completion if on a deadline or worse/inconsistent experience such as for gaming. Personally, I'd rather have a fan that is off for light workloads and on for heavier workloads than no fan at all.

 

[mi7chy]

eGPU over USB4 option if laptop is sole computer. One significant advantage that's not available on ARM. May pick up one of these eGPU docks when it comes back in stock.

 

[komuh]

So eGPU/dGPU will work with lunar lake in laptops? If yes i'm waiting for 258V with RTX 5080 mobile

 

[MRMSFC]

eGPU over USB4 option if laptop is sole computer. One significant advantage that's not available on ARM. May pick up one of these eGPU docks when it comes back in stock.

So…

You save a couple hundred on RAM and internal storage, to go out and buy a:
- USB external GPU enclosure
- at least $500 GPU
That you then bottleneck by running it over USB 4?

Am I understanding that correctly?