M1 chip fast my ass...

[Gnattu]

If looking at sheer raw performance you'd be looking to compute in the Cloud, a potent desktop

I have both of these, and I also have my M1 MBP. I don't force my M1 to do the things it is not good at and I'm quite happy with its performance and battery life. If something is just too much for my MBP, I will just use another device I mentioned. Almost all may daily developing is on the M1 now, and this was not the case when I was using an Intel based MBP, because that was noisy, hot, and laggy when I was doing anything intensive(even when not that intensive ), so I just power on my desktop workstation for better developing experience. The M1 is much better on this. I have to admit that the M1 is still limited for me due to the 16GB memory and only 1 external monitor limit, but we will have something 'unleashed' next Monday.

 

[Queen6]

I have both of these, and I also have my M1 MBP. I don't force my M1 to do the things it is not good at and I'm quite happy with its performance and battery life. If something is just too much for my MBP, I will just use another device I mentioned. Almost all may daily developing is on the M1 now, and this was not the case when I was using an Intel based MBP, because that was noisy, hot, and laggy when I was doing anything intensive(even when not that intensive ), so I just power on my desktop workstation for better developing experience. The M1 is much better on this. I have to admit that the M1 is still limited for me due to the 16GB memory and only 1 external monitor limit, but we will have something 'unleashed' next Monday.

Exactly and where fair comparisons should lie. Openly I was initially sceptical, opting for the base model M1 MBP, equally it's impressed me for this class of machine. The M1's Mac's definitely punch above their weight very solidly so. New models I'll hold off and see how they fair. Looking more to 2nd Gen onwards as Apple will then have time to work out the kinks as lets be honest they've had a good few issues over the years especially with the 15"/16" MBP.

I do wonder if the 2016 MBP redesign and Butterfly Keyboard was related to Jony Ive departing, or at very least having far less say in the final product design. Bottom line is computers need to be functional first and foremost, nor burden the customer with excessive repair costs.

Although professional users of the Mac are a niche group, they are also extremely vocal and Apple very much wants our endorsement. Hopefully Apple has listened and the new MacBook Pro will be more performant, run cool and be more flexible as a professional tool without design issues that impact reliability & usability. I suspect so as undoubtedly having all Mac notebooks on extended warranty very likely brought some harsh words in Cupertino...

Q-6

 

[bobcomer]

For someone who does not care about lower power usage, a lower power chip is an under-powered chip, and the improved power efficiency is an unacceptable trade off by sacrificing raw performance.

That's me too...

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Ehhh … from what I can tell reading about it from the outside a lot of developer hesitancy around the Mac isn’t writing the engine in Metal vs DX vs Vulkan - heck they can use compatibility layers if they want - or the lack of Macs with beefy GPUs (even a lot of AAA games are built to scale across different chipsets). It’s closer to @xWhiplash ‘s experience that testing and support are too expensive or it’s ancillary requirements (not technological) with Apple and the dev process that just pissed them off or it’s an ingrained cultural mindset of ignoring the Mac (which to be fair Apple had a big part to play in - see second or in this list). Unfortunately this last point especially will lag any advances in the GPU, market share, and API. (Unless Apple makes a concerted push to court game developers back to Apple.)

Of course support and all the things involved are a factor. As I pointed out before, look at some of the other gaming threads where I've done the math for costs porting AAA titles to macOS. But if one API is making things easier, then that's what I choose. Makes a difference if I sit down with some Nvidia or MS guys for two hours once a month or Apple/Khronos guys for two hours every week. I'm not even sure I can get official support for OpenGL/Vulkan. Apples used to have excellent support back in the PPC and early Intel days. I've been in touch with them all the time back then when I working primarily with Macs, for larger projects they even invited developers to Cupertino. Gone are these days.

 

[Queen6]

That's me too...

TBH I don't really get it as the M1 MBP is twice as powerful as the base Intel model 13" MBP and that's the class it's in....

To me the M1 remains very performant, if not the best in it's class, equally compared to larger notebooks with dGPU's etc. it clearly wont stand up so well. Ultimately there will be a trade off in portability & battery runtime. All rather moot as if you want or need to run MacOS the solutions are very simple.

Q-6

 

[bobcomer]

M1 and Cezanne are different products designed for different niches (the second one is a sustained performance specialist, the first one is a all-rounder with the focus on low power consumption). What is problematic however is his continued attempts to portray M1 as some sort of inferior technology that is not usable outside of casual internet and email use.

I hope you guys don't think I think that the M1 is inferior tech, even my MBA -- I think it is quite advanced, though I wish the video hardware was a bit different. It just doesn't fit my usage pattern, and I can be quite crabby about it if it doesn't!

The new hardware might be interesting, we'll see. I'm curious about the max RAM and the cooling, and of course, the number of high performance cores. I'm kind of more interested in the Surface Pro 8, too bad it doesn't come with a faster processor or I'd have already bought it. It at least runs everything I might *need*. I'm really stuck between a rock and a hard place -- I like MacOS, but I have a job to do...


One question though, why doesn't Apple go with a carbon fiber or just high quality plastic for the thin and light category? The MBA could go from 3 pounds to 2, and that I would like. (like the Lenovo X1 Carbon -- lighter, better keyboard...) When I travel, I like my laptop to be as light as possible, yet fast enough not to annoy me -- as I'm also carrying at least an iPad for backup and a couple phones, and everything I need to do a full install on some other hardware if needed.

 

[leman]

I hope you guys don't think I think that the M1 is inferior tech, even my MBA -- I think it is quite advanced, though I wish the video hardware was a bit different. It just doesn't fit my usage pattern, and I can be quite crabby about it if it doesn't!

Absolutely not! I know we had our share of arguments, but I always though that our interaction was driven by passion about the subject and trying to understand each others points. For my part, I am happy to share these forums (where I spend entirely too much time) with folks like you whom I respect. My jab was directed at some other members of the community who in my opinion do not contribute much of value

 

[leman]

One question though, why doesn't Apple go with a carbon fiber or just high quality plastic for the thin and light category? The MBA could go from 3 pounds to 2, and that I would like. (like the Lenovo X1 Carbon -- lighter, better keyboard...) When I travel, I like my laptop to be as light as possible, yet fast enough not to annoy me -- as I'm also carrying at least an iPad for backup and a couple phones, and everything I need to do a full install on some other hardware if needed.

I was wondering this myself. I would hypothesize that Apple wants to avoid plastics of any kind because they are not associated with this premium look and feel they are after, but there are other metal alloys that might allow them to make lighter machines.

One factor is also that some of the very light machines use extremely thin chassis walls that result in a noticeable flex and warp when subjected to external forces. This was my immediate reaction to the original X1 Carbon for example, the entire thing just felt very flimsy in my hands. Apple uses fairly thin aluminum sheets but still thick enough to avoid any kind of flex.

 

[Gnattu]

I think the heart of these conflicts is that there is a product and that there is a technology.

This is true. I usually judge a tech product from both the engineering perspective and the user perspective, that way I could have different opinion on the same product.

Come Monday we will see what Apple intends to do in the professional laptop market and I for one will be very surprised if their new mobile chips are any slower than x86 enthusiast level desktop stuff.

I am confident that they will be among the top of its class. Apple’s SoC has industry leading performance in power-constrained devices. What more interests me is that how will they make a more ‘unleashed’ chip for Mac Pro like desktop which can supply thousands watts. Apple never made a chip this huge and draws that much power.

 

[leman]

I hope you guys don't think I think that the M1 is inferior tech, even my MBA -- I think it is quite advanced, though I wish the video hardware was a bit different. It just doesn't fit my usage pattern, and I can be quite crabby about it if it doesn't!

To add to my previous reply, we are actually in a very similar boat. It was always very clear to me that M1 is not the product for me needs and I've been grudgingly using my 16" Intel while waiting for "bigger" Appel Silicon to arrive. I did briefly purchase an M1 machine to do some software tests and submit a series of FOSS patches but I sold it in early spring speculating that WWDC will bring the prosumer hardware.

 

[Serban55]

One question though, why doesn't Apple go with a carbon fiber or just high quality plastic for the thin and light category?

Everyone wants to get away of plastic...its not good for environment, in the EU now in 10 years they want to be this as law with almost 0 plastic anywhere it make sense...and , aluminium dissipate heat better than plastic...at least there were difference between my plastic macs and al one
But nevertheless...Apple will not go back to plastic...they would be called hypocrite when they say they CARE about environment ..we dont have charger in the iphone box, to make the box smaller...so
Carbon fibre on the other hand...it is the top of sturdy and lightness....F1 cars are count on it...but its also a lot more expensive than 6000/7000series aluminium
Raw - tensile strength, carbon fiber is stronger when is layed up in a composite structure, it is very strong in one direction and weak in another. That is why it is woven into fabric and layed up in different orientations and layers. The real beauty of carbon fiber is that it isn't very difficult to add more material where it is needed by varying the lay up
Also, titanium could be an option, but you need to go with Titanium 6AL-4V segment which is about 120,000 PSI to be a real thing for laptops to be up there with carbon fiber

 

[bobcomer]

TBH I don't really get it as the M1 MBP is twice as powerful as the base Intel model 13" MBP and that's the class it's in....

I'm not comparing it to the base model of anything -- that's something I wouldn't buy. Raw performance...

 

[Queen6]

I'm not comparing it to the base model of anything -- that's something I wouldn't buy. Raw performance...

That's fair enough.

Q-6

 

[bobcomer]

Everyone wants to get away of plastic...its not good for environment, in the EU now in 10 years they want to be this as law with almost 0 plastic anywhere it make sense...and , aluminium dissipate heat better than plastic...at least there were difference between my plastic macs and al one
But nevertheless...Apple will not go back to plastic...they would be called hypocrite when they say they CARE about environment ..we dont have charger in the iphone box, to make the box smaller...so
Carbon fibre on the other hand...it is the top of sturdy and lightness....F1 cars are count on it...but its also a lot more expensive than 6000/7000series aluminium

Aluminum is *heavy* in comparison, and waste from making machines in aluminum isn't small as it takes more energy to do, even if it is recyclable. Plastic doesn't really need to dissipate heat, that's why they have cooling systems in performance laptops. I'd pay more for a pound lighter in a heartbeat in any case!

 

[Serban55]

Aluminum is *heavy* in comparison, and waste from making machines in aluminum isn't small as it takes more energy to do, even if it is recyclable. Plastic doesn't really need to dissipate heat, that's why they have cooling systems in performance laptops. I'd pay more for a pound lighter in a heartbeat in any case!

Again, zero chances for plastic macs no matter what you or anybody else wants
Titanium or carbon fiber, yes, they can do it, they have all the bonus points, and also i would pay more for a proper carbon fiber macbook that is lighter and sturdier

 

[crazy dave]

Apples used to have excellent support back in the PPC and early Intel days. I've been in touch with them all the time back then when I working primarily with Macs, for larger projects they even invited developers to Cupertino. Gone are these days.

This here is what I see as Apple’s primary problem - not the API or market share or anything else. They’ve had such a nonexistent, even almost antagonist, relationship with gaming and game development (especially on the Mac and don’t get me started on the missteps with the AppleTV) for so long that they need a full court press to get game developers back on board. Even gaming on iPhone/iPad has often seemingly been so wildly successful despite Apple rather than because of them. And the Mac, well … we know how that’s gone.

 

[Krevnik]

Aluminum is *heavy* in comparison, and waste from making machines in aluminum isn't small as it takes more energy to do, even if it is recyclable. Plastic doesn't really need to dissipate heat, that's why they have cooling systems in performance laptops. I'd pay more for a pound lighter in a heartbeat in any case!

Aluminum and glass are two of the easiest materials to recycle. Aluminum scrap from manufacturing can be reinjected into your manufacturing pipeline fairly easily. Mixed sources from recycling programs are a bit harder to use due to impurities. However, even these mixed sources can be purified to an extent, making the useful lifespan of aluminum longer than plastics, keeping that aluminum out of the environment for longer. And there’s many products where the impurities in the aluminum aren’t as much of a concern and can absorb recycled aluminum that way.

While we’ve gotten better at downcycling plastics, microplastics from breakdown of plastics (like deck furniture) remain a concern due to bioaccumulation in the food chain. More so than aluminum, to my understanding.

Under Steve, Apple has long kept environmental sustainability in mind. Sometimes to the point of losing sight of the forest for the trees. For example, getting rid of PVC in cable sleeving is generally good, but not if it means cables wind up getting thrown out faster because the sleeving disintegrates at the stress points.

 

[crazy dave]

I'm not comparing it to the base model of anything -- that's something I wouldn't buy. Raw performance...

Sure, but that’s its device class so a bit of a catch-22 when making comparisons. I mean like yourself and @leman I’m in this boat as well, the M1 isn’t what I would buy. It isn’t the right weight class for me and even more importantly I have a project I’d like to finish on my current computer as it is the last CUDA-capable Mac … and certain things had to become native first … and I generally don’t buy the first generation of anything. So waiting is what I was always going to do.

 

[crazy dave]

Aluminum is *heavy* in comparison, and waste from making machines in aluminum isn't small as it takes more energy to do, even if it is recyclable. Plastic doesn't really need to dissipate heat, that's why they have cooling systems in performance laptops. I'd pay more for a pound lighter in a heartbeat in any case!

In addition to the good posts by @Serban55 and @Krevnik, I would just add that Apple has released products with titanium and other materials but aluminum has, so far, them the best balance of cost, recycling, machineability, and heat dissipation (even for laptop systems with active cooling, if the chassis is thin enough the case material still makes a difference). However, pretty sure MR has published articles on recent Apple patents for the use of other materials including both titanium and carbon fiber so they are definitely exploring them with the caveat that no one know if or when they might switch from Al.

 

[Queen6]

Sure, but that’s its device class so a bit of a catch-22 when making comparisons. I mean like yourself and @leman I’m in this boat as well, the M1 isn’t what I would buy. It isn’t the right weight class for me and even more importantly I have a project I’d like to finish on my current computer as it is the last CUDA-capable Mac … and certain things had to become native first … and I generally don’t buy the first generation of anything. So waiting is what I was always going to do.

I'm of the same mind, however the base M1 MBP isn't a big reach and has a tried and proven chassis. New model's I'll skip the 1st Gen hopefully they wont have any serious issues. For me the M1 is a good indicator of what's to come and I generally need both 13" & 16"/17" class notebooks so it certainly wont go to waste.

Q-6

 

[crazy dave]

I'm of the same mind, however the base M1 MBP isn't a big reach and has a tried and proven chassis. New model's I'll skip the 1st Gen hopefully they wont have any serious issues. For me the M1 is a good indicator of what's to come and I generally need both 13" & 16"/17" class notebooks so it certainly wont go to waste.

Q-6

Yeah that’s why I’m also a bit hesitant about the new models so I’ll wait for reviews, more than just the first impression ones.

 

[bobcomer]

Aluminum and glass are two of the easiest materials to recycle. Aluminum scrap from manufacturing can be reinjected into your manufacturing pipeline fairly easily.

Not without a lot of heat. And heat costs...

 

[Queen6]

Yeah that’s why I’m also a bit hesitant about the new models so I’ll wait for reviews, more than just the first impression ones.

Even the M1 MBP I bought 6 months into the production cycle being the lesser of the evils. As said I don't think the next Gen MBP's will be problematic as very certain Apple's management have made that abundantly clear to all concerned. That said I just don't want to be hit by an issue while on a job as even with a backup system it's just another headache to deal with.

Apple can be overly aggressive at times and suffers from a level of corporate hubris which has proven to be to the detriment of it's customers. Obviously that's not Apple's intention, equally the reality is that's what occurred in a good number of cases.

Personally I think it always better to wait a little as it does take the factories some time to dial in the manufacturing process as does the provider to polish the FW/SW packages. Never seen the attraction buying blind straight out the gate other than bragging rights.

If I had a need for a new 16" MBP, I'd look to hold off 6 months as it does take time to finesse manufacturing processes and for design flaws to surface. As ever if you need a new computer, then you need one. One simply makes the most informed decision on the day

Q-6

 

[bobcomer]

Sure, but that’s its device class so a bit of a catch-22 when making comparisons. I mean like yourself and @leman I’m in this boat as well, the M1 isn’t what I would buy. It isn’t the right weight class for me and even more importantly I have a project I’d like to finish on my current computer as it is the last CUDA-capable Mac … and certain things had to become native first … and I generally don’t buy the first generation of anything. So waiting is what I was always going to do.

I disagree, Apple never said the M1 is a low end device, and indeed, there's "Pro" level laptops and a couple desktops using it.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Yeah that’s why I’m also a bit hesitant about the new models so I’ll wait for reviews, more than just the first impression ones.

Ditto your sentiments….too much is changing all at once to be 100% confident that the first Gen will have no issues. Although the delay in getting the new MBP introduced might have a lot to do with more extensive testing, because Apple knows they really cannot repeat 2016.