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iamMacPerson

macrumors 68040
Jun 12, 2011
3,488
1,927
AZ/10.0.1.1
I don't have any OLED Apple device, as I said, so you might be right about iPhone as far as I am concerned. What I am saying is that I don't have this issue with my S10 in dark mode (or my Tab S7+ for that matter).
That’s fair. Samsung and Android as a whole have been supporting AMOLED longer than Apple and really *really* wish Apple would push a real ‘black’ mode not just dark gray. It irritates me because it’s needlessly using battery.
 

AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
7,401
3,378
Massachusetts
Be so sure… about what? I made two points, one that a lot (if not most) apps don’t have ‘true’ black backgrounds or that dark gray background have little to no energy savings on OLED panels?
Both...
Be so sure… about what? I made two points, one that a lot (if not most) apps don’t have ‘true’ black backgrounds or that dark gray background have little to no energy savings on OLED panels?

Apparently neither of you have spent any time actually using an iPhone with an OLED panel and if you have, you haven’t spent a lot of time looking for differences with gray vs black pixels and reading r/AMOLED. There is a very clear difference when something is gray, versus black.

View attachment 1764224
Settings is the worse offender of this, and a lot of apps are like this. The only actual black portion of the screen are the bars between the sections, that’s the only part that registers #000000 on Pixelmator. The rest is gray or other colors. Dark gray, while great on the eyes, have very little to no energy savings on OLED compared to displaying a pure white image at the same brightness. The energy savings in OLED comes from the pixel being completely off, which can only be done if the signal for the pixel is telling it to display #000000.
What do you mean? There are true blacks in that image.
 

secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
1,494
1,229
Both...

What do you mean? There are true blacks in that image.
I see this screenshot on my LCD laptop display but I still see as true black only the bar between the sections. In each section with a list of apps, I see the color lighter than the other black - it is more like gray to black shade. I assume that on OLED the difference is even more noticeable.

I also confirm that on my iPad Pro Macrumors in dark mode is actually gray and not true black.
 
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iamMacPerson

macrumors 68040
Jun 12, 2011
3,488
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AZ/10.0.1.1
Both...

What do you mean? There are true blacks in that image.
There is no such thing as ‘true blacks’, plural. There is only ‘true black’ and that’s #000000. If it’s not #000000 it’s not black. That’s how OLED panels interpret wether pixels are on or off. If it’s not #000000 the pixel is ‘on’, regardless of how dark it is.
 
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Aetherhole

macrumors regular
Nov 11, 2009
120
58
Tustin, CA
I want to know will the brightness make much difference in sunlight. I'm sick of how washed out my screens are on my porch if the sun is out.
I'd imagine it won't make a difference because the 1000nits full screen brightness and 1600nits peak brightness is in reference to HDR content only. Standard Dynamic Range should still be what everyone is expecting as far as average picture levels. What doesn't get factored in is the possibility that they will the max brightness of SDR as well for that very purpose. Will remain to be seen once we start getting these in people's hands.
 
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AutomaticApple

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There is no such thing as ‘true blacks’, plural. There is only ‘true black’ and that’s #000000. If it’s not #000000 it’s not black. That’s how OLED panels interpret wether pixels are on or off. If it’s not #000000 the pixel is ‘on’, regardless of how dark it is.
How can you be so sure Mr. Grammar Nazi? :p
 

Robertjan88

macrumors regular
Oct 30, 2018
171
27
Oleds has 2 main problems... burn in and lower brightness.
They have better blacks though....you earn something, you loose something else.
Modern displays hardly burn in anymore. They had many clever features. Please check input from e.g. Rtings about the latest OLED TVs. :)
Of course, it all depends on the quality of the screen AND the tech they are using.
 

toxotis700

macrumors member
Nov 23, 2020
37
29
If you have constantly bright logos , menus etc you will have burin in for sure.
I had 2 oled TV with burin in...
 

Robertjan88

macrumors regular
Oct 30, 2018
171
27
If you have constantly bright logos , menus etc you will have burin in for sure.
I had 2 oled TV with burin in...
But who is having the same logo in his screen 24/7 or even 12 hours a day? When you have a red logo 4-5 hours a day in your screen, even then you won't notice on a modem screen. Otherwise, modern games on an OLED would be killing. Sure, on older models this is still an issue, but also only after a very very long time of continuous usage.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,976
12,939
I've never understood the brightness issue. If you run an OLED TV or phone at full brightness, your eyes must be shot to pieces. It's painful as hell and it cannot be healthy...
TVs are not lamps. You don't run the entire TV at full blast, with a full screen of white.

And even if you had a predominantly white scene, a brighter TV can be of benefit particularly when in a room with a lot of ambient light. Plus, more brightness allows you to better differentiate different shades of white. eg. Snow covered mountains in the clouds.

To give you an idea of various brightness levels, if you're outside, a flower in partial shade might be 500 nits, whereas a metal object in the sun would be several thousand nits even on a partially cloudy day.

Typical recent OLED TVs max out around 700 nits, although they do go a bit higher these days in the higher end models.

LCDs can reach a couple of thousand nits for the higher end models, but the problem is their black levels often suffer. The point of mini-LED is to improve the black levels, while maintaining the brights, for overall good HDR.

In general though for content consumption, I prefer perfect blacks to ultra bright whites.


All professional graphic monitors are LCD. Most reference monitors used in video production including the $30k ones are LCD.
Well I see you said "most". However, you conveniently left out that Sony sells several professional OLEDs for broadcast video editing. In fact, for years, OLED was their top-of-the-line. Now it's not, but it's still up there of course. I believe their professional OLEDs go up to around $28000.


But they’re not black, that’s my point. Most of the apps - like this website - are dark gray *not* black so there is no savings.
If you watch a properly mastered video on an OLED phone, black is black. The first time I watched a proper video on my OLED TV, at the transition from the intro to the actual show, I thought my TV had turned off. It was pitch black. It turns out the show had been mastered properly, so the transition was pitch black, which OLED faithfully showed.

Many apps don't have proper blacks, but I generally interact with my iPad with various applications with ambient light in the background so that's OK. The only time I might not is when I'm watching video, and that context I really like to have my perfect blacks. That's one of the main reasons I want to eventually upgrade from my 10.5" iPad Pro. However, I don't really need to spend twice as much on an iPad Pro if an iPad Air gets OLED in 2022. I am not going to be creating professional multimedia content on that thing.
 
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toxotis700

macrumors member
Nov 23, 2020
37
29
But who is having the same logo in his screen 24/7 or even 12 hours a day? When you have a red logo 4-5 hours a day in your screen, even then you won't notice on a modem screen. Otherwise, modern games on an OLED would be killing. Sure, on older models this is still an issue, but also only after a very very long time of continuous usage.

If you watch tv like I do or have your oled as pc monitor…. Burn in is unavoidable.
Especially in high brightness.
 

loybond

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2010
857
631
The True North, Strong and Free
If you watch tv like I do or have your oled as pc monitor…. Burn in is unavoidable.
Especially in high brightness.
Do you have an older model? I'm seeing this on my newer LG via remote desktop, so it displays a computer pretty often, I airplay, play XBOX Series X and PS5 and absolutely zero burn in. Never even seen the slightest bit of image retention. Love this screen!
 

JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,568
26,262
Well I see you said "most". However, you conveniently left out that Sony sells several professional OLEDs for broadcast video editing. In fact, for years, OLED was their top-of-the-line. Now it's not, but it's still up there of course. I believe their professional OLEDs go up to around $28000.

That says it all, IMO.

Sony's best professional reference monitor used to be OLED. Today, their best professional monitor is the dual-layer LCD BVM-HX310. The fact that Sony has OLED partnerships and OLED fabs, but still went LCD for their halo product really says something about LCD.

'I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been.'

Apple's product display roadmap says they strongly believe LED is the future.
 

xxray

macrumors 68040
Jul 27, 2013
3,115
9,412
No one knows yet, but I will always argue for OLED over any kind of mini-LED technology. There's a reason LG's OLED TVs are considered to have the best picture you can buy, while Samsung's QLED (mini-LED) and other mini-LED TVs are not.

People love to point out that OLED can get burn-in, which is true, but Apple has also been using OLEDs in iPhones, MacBook Pro Touch Bars, and Apple Watches for 4-6 years and there have been no widespread issues with burn-in yet. I will give it to mini-LEDs that they can get brighter, but they just don't compare to OLED when it comes to contract and black levels.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,976
12,939
Apple's product display roadmap says they strongly believe LED is the future.
Their roadmap seems to include both OLED and mini-LED.

I guess that means they think BOTH are the future. And I happen to agree.
 

JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,568
26,262
No one knows yet, but I will always argue for OLED over any kind of mini-LED technology. There's a reason LG's OLED TVs are considered to have the best picture you can buy, while Samsung's QLED (mini-LED) and other mini-LED TVs are not.

Koreans didn't invest in mini LED because they bet on OLED over a decade ago. Now the tide has turned and they're scrambling to get on board the mini LED train. You're comparing a tier-one LG OLED TV with a tier-two Samsung mini LED product.

Look at Apple's mini LED supply chain. It's Epistar and Sanan supplying the critical mini LED backlight chips and wafers.
 

Squillace

macrumors 6502
Feb 22, 2016
400
494
Switzerland
Both...

What do you mean? There are true blacks in that image.

Man... it's just factual.

To produce true black, the OLED panel just keep the pixel turned off. If it needs to be just a little bit grey, the darkest of the greys, then the pixel will need to be lit. That's why only a "true black" dark mode can be power saving.

And in the screenshot above, if you can't tell the difference between the black bars (actually those aren't bars, it's just the background of the settings, the menu options come above it) and the menu options, then you clearly have a problem with your screen or your vision.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,976
12,939
Koreans didn't invest in mini LED because they bet on OLED over a decade ago. Now the tide has turned and they're scrambling to get on board the mini LED train. You're comparing a tier-one LG OLED TV with a tier-two Samsung mini LED product.

Look at Apple's mini LED supply chain. It's Epistar and Sanan supplying the critical mini LED backlight chips and wafers.
I don't really understand your arguments here.

First, you were talking about Sony's best professional products, which cost 5-digit $, but we all know nothing like that will appear in iPad Pros or iPads because it would be stupid. Second, there are different tools for different purposes. You should be well aware that even the best mini-LED in the price range appropriate for future iPad Pros cannot match the black levels and precise pixel-level lighting control that even cheap consumer OLED offers. This may be less relevant for certain content producers, but it's very relevant for an even larger segment of the population.

I have no doubt the Apple iPad Pros with mini-LED will be good products. However, the products will be less appropriate for a large chunk of the population. It will serve to increase cost, for benefits that the typical consumer cannot maximize. OLED in this regard is a much more appropriate solution, and actually offers several advantages over mini-LED that mini-LED so far cannot solve even at higher costs.

So again, it seems to me from a technology point of view, the ideal situation going forward is to incorporate BOTH mini-LED and OLED in it products. We shall see, but judging by the various rumours, it would seem that is indeed the actual path Apple will be taking.


Man... it's just factual.

To produce true black, the OLED panel just keep the pixel turned off. If it needs to be just a little bit grey, the darkest of the greys, then the pixel will need to be lit. That's why only a "true black" dark mode can be power saving.
That is incorrect. Near black on OLED uses more power than black, but much less power than white.
 
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cardfan

macrumors 601
Mar 23, 2012
4,431
5,627
No one knows yet, but I will always argue for OLED over any kind of mini-LED technology. There's a reason LG's OLED TVs are considered to have the best picture you can buy, while Samsung's QLED (mini-LED) and other mini-LED TVs are not.

People love to point out that OLED can get burn-in, which is true, but Apple has also been using OLEDs in iPhones, MacBook Pro Touch Bars, and Apple Watches for 4-6 years and there have been no widespread issues with burn-in yet. I will give it to mini-LEDs that they can get brighter, but they just don't compare to OLED when it comes to contract and black levels.

I agree. The xdr iPad is bound to disappoint people who are expecting a big difference. That’s oled. I have oled on laptop and the screen is fantastic.
 
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JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
13,568
26,262
I don't really understand your arguments here.

First, you were talking about Sony's best professional products, which cost 5-digit $, but we all know nothing like that will appear in iPad Pros or iPads because it would be stupid. Second, there are different tools for different purposes. You should be well aware that even the best mini-LED in the price range appropriate for future iPad Pros cannot match the black levels and precise pixel-level lighting control that even cheap consumer OLED offers. This may be less relevant for certain content producers, but it's very relevant for an even larger segment of the population.

I have no doubt the Apple iPad Pros with mini-LED will be good products. However, the products will be less appropriate for a large chunk of the population. It will serve to increase cost, for benefits that the typical consumer cannot maximize. OLED in this regard is a much more appropriate solution, and actually offers several advantages over mini-LED that mini-LED so far cannot solve even at higher costs.

So again, it seems to me from a technology point of view, the ideal situation going forward is to incorporate BOTH mini-LED and OLED in it products. We shall see, but judging by the various rumours, it would seem that is indeed the actual path Apple will be taking.

My position is, when it comes down to the technology, LCD wins. When money doesn't matter, size doesn't matter, the best of the best professional reference monitor is LCD (from Sony and other manufacturers). We often see these comparisons between brand X OLED vs. brand Y mini LED TVs. But those are limited by the fact those are consumer level products and without Apple's supply chain dominance.

Mini LED can only improve in terms of contrast and brightness (more zones, high luminescence). Let's pretend with 2,500 zones and 1M:1 contrast, mini LED doesn't match the black picture levels of OLED. What about at 5,000 or 7,000 zones? At some point in the near future, I predict mini LED will easily overtake OLED, at least in terms of what can be appreciated by consumers. Perhaps for machine level measurements, OLED will continue to win in terms of black level. For color reproduction, brightness, viewing angle, and things like image smearing, LCD will win. There are simply more checkboxes in the mini LED column.

We're seeing OLED and mini LED in future Apple products, but OLED seems to be for products that require flex (iPhone) or cost (iPad Air).
 
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Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,668
4,506
I think part of this interesting debate is still speculation when it comes to the XDR iPad vs OLED, which is the subject, since nobody here has seen the actual implementation of mini-led. Soon enough we'll have comparison videos with the Tab S7+. I know, not ideal through another screen but better than based on other devices...
Hopefully once they are in shop we can compare (I am really looking forward to see it in person and if the store lets me, compare it with my Tab S7+)
 

AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
7,401
3,378
Massachusetts
Man... it's just factual.

To produce true black, the OLED panel just keep the pixel turned off. If it needs to be just a little bit grey, the darkest of the greys, then the pixel will need to be lit. That's why only a "true black" dark mode can be power saving.

And in the screenshot above, if you can't tell the difference between the black bars (actually those aren't bars, it's just the background of the settings, the menu options come above it) and the menu options, then you clearly have a problem with your screen or your vision.
You've yet to prove that it's "factual" though.
 

xxray

macrumors 68040
Jul 27, 2013
3,115
9,412
You've yet to prove that it's "factual" though.
That’s because he’s/she’s wrong. OLED still saves power with dark grey (not completely black) designs.

When the OnePlus 7 Pro is displaying full-white at 100 nits, the device consumed an average of 1000mW over five minutes. When displaying an “AMOLED black” image, the OnePlus 7 Pro consumed an average of 600mW — the same difference of 400mW in our modeling above. And finally, when measuring dark gray, the device consumed an average between 600mW-610mW.

With the OnePlus 7 Pro’s 4000mAh battery, that would mean the dark gray theme consumes an additional 0.063% of the device’s battery per hour [over pure black]. Whoa.

 
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