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Although I’m a bit neutral-to-negative on LLMs in general especially where summarization is concerned I agree with you about Wolfram having a potentially unique opportunity here, and the discipline to do things in a “more’ correct way.

On that topic, do you have any resources regarding Wolfram notebooks and more specifically what people are using their latest technology for day-to-day? I follow you on the Mathematica stuff but I have zero experience with his languages otherwise and am deeply curious about what some practical applications are for their desktop apps or other tools that people apparently pay for.

I think this is a huge blind spot for me professionally and for my knowledge of what’s going on in the broader industry so I’d sincerely love some outside resources to look at if you know of any (and I did spend an hour on their site earlier after reading your post). I understand the temptation to say “if you don’t know it’s not for you” but I’m the type of learner that really likes to understand the tools and grok the scope of their usage because that can lead to implementation insights that I would never have considered and it seems like you have a pretty good handle on this.

edit: feel free to PM me if you consider this too off-topic, but it might be of use to others too. There’s a dearth of information in this area in my (limited) experience which is the reason I’m seizing this opportunity.
I'm not sure quite what you want here. You seem to be distinguishing between Mathematica and Wolfram Language, but I think that's primarily a BUSINESS distinction, not a technology distinction. That is, Wolfram offers a variety of products (eg Wolfram Alpha, Wolfram Player, or various high-school-targeted mini-Mathematica's) that cost less than MMA, and some (like various engineering or finance simulators) that cost a lot more. But they all basically run on Wolfram Language, so which you use depends on how much a level of functionality is worth to you.

As for MMA, I use it in multiple ways (and like any single human, I use probably 1% of its capacities!)
One obvious path is my Volumes 1..7 describing how Apple M-series chips work.
I've written a few hundred pages in LaTeX (via LyX) and MMA is *mostly* much easier to use for technical writing. LyX is not bad, but MMA makes it much easier to embed graphics or URLs without going out of your way. OTOH LyX makes it easier to embed footnotes (if you care about) and *much* easier to create a "structured" document (ie section 1, section 2, subsection 2.1, etc). It's easy to get the structure w/ MMA, but a real hassle to jump between structural elements unless you add some outside functionality [which has to be re-initialized every time you re-open a document].

But putting aside the big structure stuff, inputting math in MMA is much easier (so much so that I rejiggered my LyX to allow for MMA-style input of symbols, greek letters, sub-and super-scripts, etc). You can even create a full DSL (input method, display method, etc) for a particular domain. I did this for quantum mechanics so that I could enter proper QM (operator manipulation, not just numerics) that looked like math, not like a programming language, and it worked remarkably well, allowing me ultimately to prove (or rather have MMA do all the hard work of proof!) that the Kepler force law has a "four dimensional spherical symmetry" which is ultimately why hydrogen orbitals with different angular momenta [of course in the Schrodinger approximation] have exactly the same energies, the QM equivalent of the fact that Kepler orbits are perfect ellipses. (Why this remarkable? Well, simulate the classical orbits for a different force law, eg F=1/r^3. You'll get something like a spirograph pattern. The radial motion is periodic, and the angular motion is periodic, but they have DIFFERENT periods.
None of this is novel, I just wanted to explore it my way. If it interests you, you can find pointers here:

This allows you to write craziness like this below. (Everything in orange-brown is a quantum operator, with all that implies. The money shot, after lots of definitions, is that the R operators [rotations in the 4th dimension] behave and commute like the traditional L operators, so we have an additional "rotation-like" symmetry.

The fact that the + and - operations are too large and have a slightly different shade of orange is a bug. At the time I did this a few years ago I thought it was a bug in MMA, so gave up on trying to fix it. But it's persisted for a few years, so at some point (hopefully helped out by Wolfram Assistant!) I'll probably get into the guts of the DSL and try to fix it.

Screenshot 2024-12-22 at 2.31.42 PM.png


But the real thing with MMA is that it makes exploring any problem so damned easy! You can see how my M1 PDFs I could easily import data from a file as a multi-rank array, easily extract sub-arrays, easily plot those, change plot options, and see patterns. I could easily create a simulation for my hypothesis for how L1 TLB worked and compare the simulator results to real-world measured values. When playing with physics I can write down a differential equation then maybe solve it exactly. Or have MMA solve it numerically. Either way I can then again easily plot the results, possibly in 3D. Or I can compose them in some other fashion (eg threat the solution of differential equation as a generic function to be used for some other task, anywhere a function can be used). I can just as easily create Manipulate's, ie custom panels with controls, so that I can modify various parameters and see how something changes as the parameters are moved around etc etc.

For example I wanted to write an article on differential forms (the geometry more than the algebra). These are a generalization of what you think of as grad, div, and curl, but
- they work in any number of dimensions not just three
- once you see them explained geometrically, it's obvious why there are "natural" differential operators on fields, while other expression you might write down are not natural (ie don't make geometric sense)
- why there's a relationship (in any number of dimensions) between a particular differential operator and a particular line/area/volume type integral (eg Stokes' or Gauss' theorem).
I can't imagine any other software where I could fairly easily just create one graph/image after another of the necessary images (things like a network of curved co-ordinate axes, with the quadrants between some of them colored, or things that look like stacked egg crates of different sizes) with varying transparency for different elements, or parts of the 3D image cut out so you can see inside, or suchlike, something like this:
Screenshot 2024-12-22 at 2.28.00 PM.png
Screenshot 2024-12-22 at 2.28.11 PM.png

You aren't expected to understand the above diagram without help! but even so you can fairly easily see that it's constructed by "sheets" that are interleaved, a yellow set with some transparency, and a red set, with the beginning on each red sheet marked by a blue line.
Believe it or not, this picture (properly understood and explained!) is a visual proof of Stokes' theorem. Imagine say a circle drawn on the diagram cutting through the sheets. The count of blue lines piercing the interior of the circle is effectively the integral over the disk of the curl, while the number of sheets pierced by the circle (taking account of "negative" vs positive" piercing depending on the orientation of the circle relative to the sheet) is the line integral around the boundary of the disk. And the two are equal -- numbers of sheets pierced equals number of blue lines representing the start of a new sheet not connected to a previous sheet...
Done right this generalizes to any number of dimensions in any dimensional space!
This was all worked out by Cartan in the early 20th C and written up in his usual (UTTERLY incomprehensible, totally algebraic!) style. It was made more comprehensible with some geometric explanation in the 50s and 60s, but still hasn't, IMHO, been explained well at the undergrad level.



There are plenty of other tools superficially in this vein, from free (eg R or Octave) to cheaper (eg Matlab). But none of them have anything close to both the depth of MMA and the deep thought that has gone into it, not just the functionality, but also the composability, and even "trivial" things like the names of functions or the default colors used by graphs and in the UI. You may (or may not) know that for years now Wolfram's internal review sessions have been recorded and uploaded to YouTube: this URL will give you a (somewhat randomly ordered list) you can explore
There are about 900 of these now, each one a review session of Stephen Wolfram with some group about the ongoingd design of some feature. It's worth watching at least a few of them. Sometimes the discussion goes off into the mathematical (or MMA internals) weeds, but mostly it's about "I tried this new functionality. It works well in this way. But it's dumb in that way. The UI is inconsistent in these ways. I don't like the word you used for this function because it can be confused with <piece of functionality that was added 12 years ago>." etc etc. It's very impressive how organized it is, and how competent everyone involved is.

Is this worth about $200 a year to you? I don't know, maybe not. It's worth it to me!
Really it boils down to how often a year do you want mathematical functionality? To draw a complicated 3D graph or 3D image? To solve a differential equation? To create a stochastic simulation? Do you find something like Excel or Numbers is adequate for those tasks or not even close?
Even if my sort of "physics" math doesn't appeal to you, there's a massive amount of image processing in there that some find useful! Or the ability to create and experiment with, say, neural networks. Obviously you can, eg, create neural networks in Python for free. But can you easily extract elements along the way to draw graphs to test, eg, hypotheses you may have about how activations are changing during training? Or how they correlate from one layer to the next? Or easily to run two nets side by side, one slightly modified relative to the other, and compare how activations differ in the two cases?

I don't follow the ins and outs of exactly what plans are available and how they differ; but I know that you can get the basic Home & Hobby plan for like $200 a year, and if you can legitimately show you're a student (don't know how strict they are about you having to prove this) for $75 a year.
 
With no die shots of the M4 Max it's obviously not possible to know if there will be a 2x Max scenario with essentially a doubled M4 max with interposer. But having said that is it likely that the Ultra will be 2x max, ie 24p/8e core?
 
With no die shots of the M4 Max it's obviously not possible to know if there will be a 2x Max scenario with essentially a doubled M4 max with interposer. But having said that is it likely that the Ultra will be 2x max, ie 24p/8e core?
That should still be the default assumption BUT there is the interesting observation that in the known list of Mac identifiers (Mac16,x) there is no room for an M4 Ultra Studio or Pro, but there is room for an M5 Ultra Studio/Pro as Mac17,1 and Mac17,2 are already listed in Apple's firmware:

@altaic's M4 list from the other place which he got from diving into firmware which has been confirmed for all but one device (16,9 still unconfirmed but with Macrumors agreeing that 16,12 and 16,13 are the Airs) at this point:

M4 Macs
Mac16,1 MBP 14” M4
Mac16,2 iMac 24” M4 (2-port)
Mac16,3 iMac 24” M4 (4-port)
Mac16,4 DNE
Mac16,5 MBP 16” M4 Max (384b & 512b)
Mac16,6 MBP 14” M4 Max (384b & 512b)
Mac16,7 MBP 16” M4 Pro
Mac16,8 MBP 14” M4 Pro
Mac16,9 Mac Studio M4 Max
Mac16,10 Mac mini M4
Mac16,11 Mac mini M4 Pro
Mac16,12 MBA 13” M4
Mac16,13 MBA 15” M4

If this list is complete (and so far there is no evidence of a 16,14, or 16,15), then there will be no M4 Ultra either. This is actually possible since we have the rumor of the existence of the so-called Hidra die to form the "desktop-only" chip. In contradiction to Gurman's prognostications, the Hidra may not be of the M4 generation. That could make the 17,1 and 17,2 from the OP the Ultra Mac Studio and the Ultra Mac Pro, which will be technically M5 chips.

If this is the case, then prediction is that 3rd party die shots will not show an interconnect on the M4 Max chips. I have not seen any 3rd party die shots of the Max yet.

This shouldn't be viewed as a sure thing because the identifier list in firmware could simply be incomplete, but I think it's one of the most plausible theories out there that fits the known data and the rumored existence of the Hidra die. As you say, a die shot would go a long way to confirming the validity of the above theory (or that M4 Ultra will be 2x M4 Max).
 
Ming-Chi Kuo says:

“…M5 Ultra mass production is expected in ...2026…“

@mingchikuo

It seems everyone is of patient disposition and wields a near-limitless attention span…. so I don’t see any issues here… 😇
 
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It seems everyone is of patient disposition and wields a near-limitless attention span…. so I don’t see any issues here… 😇
https://x.com/mingchikuo
郭明錤 (Ming-Chi Kuo)

@mingchikuo

…M5 Ultra mass production is expected in ...2026…
Your links didn't work for me. This one did:


That is expected if we're getting an M4 Ultra this year, which if true means that caveat to my above post applies and the current firmware list of Mac Identifiers is incomplete. So under this, Hidra either doesn't exist or is an M4-generation die after all*.

More exciting is the contention that Apple will separating out the CPU and GPU dies. That opens up so many exciting possibilities in the long term like end users mixing and matching dies. Even before that though it allows Apple to be more flexible in their SOC designs without increasing the workload on their engineers by as much - Pros need not be chopped Maxes, Ultras need not be 2x Maxes.

*EDIT: There might be a way to reconcile hand have both sort of be true where the Mac 17,1 and 2 and Hidra represent a sort of M4+ die, not quite M4, not quite M5. That could explain why there is seemingly no Mac16,x devices with Ultras and why we only see two Mac17s without invoking missing information. Not sure how plausible that is, an M4+ die, Apple's never done something like that before. But I'm trying to reconcile all the disparate pieces of information we have into a cohesive whole, which may simply not be possible because some of the information is from leaks and may be inaccurate and some might be incomplete.
 
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<snip>
More exciting is the contention that Apple will separating out the CPU and GPU dies.

Separate CPU and GPU ‘designs’ could also mean tiling with high bandwidth inter tile connections.

My complete guess : When Apple do eventually end up with >= 4 x GPU tiles in their desktop offerings, they will use a central GPU tessellation with satellite CPUs ..

1734996681139.png
 
Separate CPU and GPU ‘designs’ could also mean tiling with high bandwidth inter tile connections.

My complete guess : When Apple do eventually end up with >= 4 x GPU tiles in their desktop offerings, they will use a central GPU tessellation with satellite CPUs ..

View attachment 2465219
There are a lot of possibilities and we don't know exactly what this new packaging tech will allow for for the M5s, but yes ultimately being able to build an SOC out of Lego-like dies would be huge ... pun intended.

I wonder if this new information from Kuo means we will see a 'standard' M4 Ultra (2x max) a little sooner (Mar-Apr) then a new type of tiled "M5" Ultra in '26.

That we are getting a more standard M4 Ultra (or at least an Ultra of the M4 generation) would be the major implication although I don't know about the timeline - it might still be coming mid-summer. That said, there is still the issue of the missing device numbers in the firmware list to account for. So ... we'll see.
 
Dont trust that kuo account. When that account came with new info never came true. Only copy paste info from Gurman saw somehow the light
 
I'm not sure quite what you want here. You seem to be distinguishing between Mathematica and Wolfram Language, but I think that's primarily a BUSINESS distinction, not a technology distinction. That is, Wolfram offers a variety of products (eg Wolfram Alpha, Wolfram Player, or various high-school-targeted mini-Mathematica's) that cost less than MMA, and some (like various engineering or finance simulators) that cost a lot more. But they all basically run on Wolfram Language, so which you use depends on how much a level of functionality is worth to you.

[pages of excellent detail follow]

Sorry I'm late getting back to you, but I didn't want to leave it unacknowledged – this is one of the best replies and posts I've seen in this forum across almost 20 years here. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
 
I'm wondering if that means a huge improvement of the GPU on the M5 Pro, and if I should stick to a regular M4 Mac mini for now (as a stopgap machine) in case I want to upgrade to that M5 Pro with a much improved GPU. However, maybe if I'm going to wait, better wait for the new and -hopefully- revolutionary N2 process on the M6...

The thing is that investing now on a 1TB M4 Pro Mac mini is going to devaluate fast, but I'll have a great machine. Investing on a 1TB M4 Mac mini, on the other hand, is going to save me 500€, and I think I'll lose less money if/when I want to sell it to get an M5 Pro or M6 Pro Mac mini...

Decisions...
 
We have no way of knowing.
Yeah, I know, all we can do is speculate. But I wonder if having that "separate" architecture means... a significant jump in performance. Actually I'm not even sure what leak means... because they are going to be on the same SoC like now, but on different dies?

Anyway, don't worry, I know we cannot see the future.
 
Yeah, I know, all we can do is speculate. But I wonder if having that "separate" architecture means... a significant jump in performance. Actually I'm not even sure what leak means... because they are going to be on the same SoC like now, but on different dies?

Could be, doesn’t have to though. That said, there are some fairly simple modifications Apple could do to significantly improve the GPU performance in the next generation if they are interested in that kind of thing.
 
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is there still no m4 max die shots? No info on if there are some interesting connections hinting at the “ultra “ level desktop versions? So tired of not having a desktop computer that is in line with the laptop tech. My m3max is fast enough but sounds like a jet when used for continuous work. And no, a many years old m2 based machine with no RT cores is just not an option. M3 was when stuff started to fall in place, but there is still no desktop available (no, a nano/mini is not a viable option)
So, nothing new about studio/pro desktops? Anything?
 
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is there still no m4 max die shots? No info on if there are some interesting connections hinting at the “ultra “ level desktop versions? So tired of not having a desktop computer that is in line with the laptop tech. My m3max is fast enough but sounds like a jet when used for continuous work. And no, a many years old m2 based machine with no RT cores is just not an option. M3 was when stuff started to fall in place, but there is still no desktop available (no, a nano/mini is not a viable option)
So, nothing new about studio/pro desktops? Anything?
Most rumors (and timeline of previous released products) point to a summer release for the Studio - earliest would probably be March like the M1 Studio, but most rumors say summer like the M2 Studio. Earlier would indeed be nicer given how long ago the Studio was last updated and that it is still on M2. Airs are expected February/March. As to the chip, no we still don't have anything firm and no die shots as far as I know.
 
Since we are speculating...

- What would be the base configuration of the Studio M4 Max?
How much would this cost?

- What would be the base configuration of the Studio M4 Ultra?
How much would this cost?
 
Yeah, I know, all we can do is speculate. But I wonder if having that "separate" architecture means... a significant jump in performance. Actually I'm not even sure what leak means... because they are going to be on the same SoC like now, but on different dies?

Anyway, don't worry, I know we cannot see the future.

I'm coming from the Other side, and places like AT have serious, extensive discussion on this and other Ua and Litho technologies than I'm seeing in Apple forums.

If I am understanding the queries here, folks are wondering if Apple moving to tiles is going to somehow improve performance?
Generally, no.
Tiles are primarily an economic benefit via increased yield of wafers while defect densities may remain the same per nm/sq between tiles and monolithic full die designs.
A tile that has a defect only affects that tile/die area, small amount of silicon to be trashed.
A SOC/Full fat design monolithic with a similar defect affects multiples of that tile/die area, large amount of silicon to be trashed or binned down if sufficient redundancy has been included.
With Tiles being so small, and high yields may also make it possible to reduce the levels of redundancy they've learned to add from Monolithic die experience, and end up saving even more space and being even less expensive.

So far, I've only run across a handful of folks referenced on AT to X/Twitter posters who actually get into the nitty-gritty details doing comparisons across Apple and other micro-architectures and foundry lithographies.

If Apple is moving to tiles, then it is likely primarily because their monolithic dies are now becoming large enough that adding additional redundancy to overcome defect densities is becoming to high to maintain their cost basis.
Going with tiles is not a get out of jail free card, the downside is that moving from monolithic means you need inter-tile fabrics that are a can of worms on their own and so far have generally led to lower performance than monolithic dies in latency and throughput.
Can be alleviated with high-speed fabrics, and Apple can probably avoid many of Intels and AMD's mistakes with careful R&D. However I might be wrong but I'm not aware of anyone generally beating monolithics inherent latency/throughput advantage with tile use.
 
I'm coming from the Other side, and places like AT have serious, extensive discussion on this and other Ua and Litho technologies than I'm seeing in Apple forums.

If I am understanding the queries here, folks are wondering if Apple moving to tiles is going to somehow improve performance?
Generally, no.
Tiles are primarily an economic benefit via increased yield of wafers while defect densities may remain the same per nm/sq between tiles and monolithic full die designs.
A tile that has a defect only affects that tile/die area, small amount of silicon to be trashed.
A SOC/Full fat design monolithic with a similar defect affects multiples of that tile/die area, large amount of silicon to be trashed or binned down if sufficient redundancy has been included.
With Tiles being so small, and high yields may also make it possible to reduce the levels of redundancy they've learned to add from Monolithic die experience, and end up saving even more space and being even less expensive.

So far, I've only run across a handful of folks referenced on AT to X/Twitter posters who actually get into the nitty-gritty details doing comparisons across Apple and other micro-architectures and foundry lithographies.

If Apple is moving to tiles, then it is likely primarily because their monolithic dies are now becoming large enough that adding additional redundancy to overcome defect densities is becoming to high to maintain their cost basis.
Going with tiles is not a get out of jail free card, the downside is that moving from monolithic means you need inter-tile fabrics that are a can of worms on their own and so far have generally led to lower performance than monolithic dies in latency and throughput.
Can be alleviated with high-speed fabrics, and Apple can probably avoid many of Intels and AMD's mistakes with careful R&D. However I might be wrong but I'm not aware of anyone generally beating monolithics inherent latency/throughput advantage with tile use.
Wow, thank you so much for such detailed explanation! Then I guess it’s not worth the wait and getting an M4 Pro instead of waiting for this new technology is the way to go.
 
No prob, AT has a decent thread on Apple in its cpu forum where a lot of this is discussed in great detail and with better authority.
 
I'm coming from the Other side, and places like AT have serious, extensive discussion on this and other Ua and Litho technologies than I'm seeing in Apple forums.

If I am understanding the queries here, folks are wondering if Apple moving to tiles is going to somehow improve performance?
Generally, no.
Tiles are primarily an economic benefit via increased yield of wafers while defect densities may remain the same per nm/sq between tiles and monolithic full die designs.
A tile that has a defect only affects that tile/die area, small amount of silicon to be trashed.
A SOC/Full fat design monolithic with a similar defect affects multiples of that tile/die area, large amount of silicon to be trashed or binned down if sufficient redundancy has been included.
With Tiles being so small, and high yields may also make it possible to reduce the levels of redundancy they've learned to add from Monolithic die experience, and end up saving even more space and being even less expensive.

So far, I've only run across a handful of folks referenced on AT to X/Twitter posters who actually get into the nitty-gritty details doing comparisons across Apple and other micro-architectures and foundry lithographies.

If Apple is moving to tiles, then it is likely primarily because their monolithic dies are now becoming large enough that adding additional redundancy to overcome defect densities is becoming to high to maintain their cost basis.
Going with tiles is not a get out of jail free card, the downside is that moving from monolithic means you need inter-tile fabrics that are a can of worms on their own and so far have generally led to lower performance than monolithic dies in latency and throughput.
Can be alleviated with high-speed fabrics, and Apple can probably avoid many of Intels and AMD's mistakes with careful R&D. However I might be wrong but I'm not aware of anyone generally beating monolithics inherent latency/throughput advantage with tile use.


As you say, other manufacturers multi-die solution often come at the expense of bandwidth (especially looking at you, Intel), since they are primarily a cost-cutting measures. Apple is likely to use high-bandwidth interfaces between dies that don’t have this issue.

Also, we are not talking about tiles, but stacking with partial overlap. One of the main advantages would be reducing the SoC footprint. I am looking forward to see the exact solution, but the general idea is likely what Apple describes in this patent:


In particular, the following quote from the patent might be of interest:

In accordance with embodiments, the first die 140 may be a main chip including higher performance cores (e.g. CPU, GPU) or cores fabricated with smaller node technology, while the second die 110 may be a daughter chip including lower performance cores (e.g. RF, memory) or cores fabricated with a larger node technology, for example. A variety of potential reasons are contemplated for die splitting.
 
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