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scubachap

macrumors 6502a
Aug 30, 2016
512
821
UK
I'm a long time Mac User (since 1988). During that time I've had my ups and downs with Apple but the last few years have been something else. I honestly don't understand Tim Cook's attitude. I get that the Mac isn't the focus going forward - but for goodness sakes a multinational company (with the resources of a small country) should be capable of multi-tasking. Apple should be able to develop lots of new ideas in iOS while keeping the Mac line up relevant and coherent. It's not a zero sum game - if I want a desktop for 3d work and Apple won't supply anything relevant, I'm not going to buy 4 iPads instead with the budget - doh! I'll just price up PCs. Once I have that PC suddenly an Android phone might look like an option.

As such, I'm nearly done with them but unfortunately I'm locked in at the moment (often have to work with third party Mac files and have squillions of type 1 fonts), so I'll probably buy one more Apple machine as I'm desperate for a powerful laptop. I keep putting it off as it's going to cost an eye watering £4k and that's a a complete p*** take in my opinion for what i'll be getting. I strongly suspect it will be my last unless they do something special with the mythical Mac Pro. (The stupid thing is it would be so simple to keep me and more importantly my wallet onside... )
 

Frankied22

macrumors 68000
Nov 24, 2010
1,787
594
What are you all wishing Apple would update on the Macs to, in your eyes, bring them "back to greatness"? I use windows and macOS daily and I will tell you macOS is still miles ahead of windows when it comes to user experience, smoothness, functionality, and ease of use. When I am using macOS I never find myself thinking, "wow this is ****, I can't do X. I wish they'd fix that!". It's more like, "thank god I am on my Mac and not my windows machine and I can easily and effortlessly do this task". I really don't see any huge innovations that need to happen on macOS. The only valid criticism I see raised often is how there is no native way to snap windows, and this can easily be remedied by downloading one of many third party tools that give you a massive amount of customization when it comes to window management. You know how many third party apps you'll be downloading on windows or linux just to get the same functionality you get in stock macOS? A **** ton, and they'll be junk more than likely. Try to go to windows and do things like quick preview a file, rename a file while its open, easily edit and sign pdfs without installing some spyware riddled jank third party app, use a clean stock mail app (or for that matter use any set of applications that are clean and coherent in design), quickly send files/images/videos from your phone to your computer, message your friends and family from the same threads of conversations as on your phone (including sms/mms threads), handoff a email you were writing on your phone to your computer, open a website you had open on your phone on your computer, have all the unix underpinnings you would need to create a great development environment, use fluid and simple gestures to easily navigate around, a competent dark mode, and the list goes on and on and on. Some of these quality of life features are obviously only relevant if you use an iPhone or iPad but if you are not I am not sure why you are hooked on Mac. Those extra ecosystem features make it all worth it and increase productivity and enjoyment. If someone is just doing basic computing tasks they can easily use whatever OS. But it won't be as enjoyable, that's for sure.

Granted, I can understand the frustration if you need to use certain software that is not available on macOS, but that has been that way for years so I don't know why you'd be using a Mac in the first place. The same goes for gaming. Mac has always been a joke when it comes to gaming. That's why I have always had a custom built pc for gaming. Ever since I got into Apple tho and got a Mac I want to off myself when I try to use my PC for daily computing tasks, and that is the essential point. Apple products are pleasing to use. They make you WANT to use them and get stuff done. They get out of the way (for the most part) a hell of a lot more than the competition. At the end of the day that is what is important. I think deep down Apple has always had that spirit in their design. They want people to enjoy using their products but not spend every waking hour on them tinkering things that make no difference. They should be good enough for the majority of people to just pick up, use, get work done, enjoy themselves, and get on with their lives. This is also how I feel about iOS vs Android. While I can't do really nerdy stuff like torrent or play emulated games natively on my iPhone, the things I do actually do every day I can do a whole hell of a lot faster and easier on my iPhone. That is because Apple actually thinks about how people use their devices every day and how they can streamline things or make the user experience better. It is not a hobbled together disjointed mess.

So far this is all talking about software. If we are going to talk about hardware, that is a different story. Apple IS definitely charging too much these days for what they are putting out. There has always been an Apple Tax so to speak but lately it's seemed to get a little out of hand considering the hardware upgrades. I feel Apple could definitely be more competitive when it comes to what they put in base models of their computers and what they charge for things such as ram upgrades, ssd upgrades, etc. Also, they have definitely made some missteps with hardware decisions as of late. The new keyboards are without a doubt a step down from the old keyboards. The design needs to be put out to pasture and redesigned so that it isn't riddled with issues, doesn't break easily, and actually feels great to type on again. It has had it's time to prove itself and it has failed miserably. The Touch Bar may be on its way to reaching the same fate but that remains to be seen. Some people enjoy the Touch Bar and get some kind of use out of it. All of that being said, I still feel like pretty much all Macs nowadays are powerful enough for the vast majority of people. The masses don't really require insane power from their computers. They are doing simple **** that they can do on their phone or tablets. I think most people greatly over exaggerate their power needs. Like when the iMac Pro or Mac Pro came out, or hell even this new 6-core MBP...what the **** are you people doing that requires that much power? I would wager that the people that need that kind of power are like 2% of the user base.
 

iGobbleoff

macrumors 6502
May 2, 2011
354
469
I think its mainly about the hardware. Apple need to take a step back and realise what the word "Pro" means. The Macbook/Air can be used by everyone else, but the Pro needs to stay as a Pro to justify the price. This means a better ****ing keyboard, get rid of TouchID and put the ports back on it.

The obsession with making it thinner and thinner and lighter and lighter needs to be dropped from the Pro range. If you want a pro machine for work, then you're probably prepared to lug it around and be happy with what you can plug into it. USB-C to 'other' cable connectors is just ****.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
I think its mainly about the hardware. Apple need to take a step back and realise what the word "Pro" means. The Macbook/Air can be used by everyone else, but the Pro needs to stay as a Pro to justify the price. This means a better ****ing keyboard, get rid of TouchID and put the ports back on it.

The obsession with making it thinner and thinner and lighter and lighter needs to be dropped from the Pro range. If you want a pro machine for work, then you're probably prepared to lug it around and be happy with what you can plug into it. USB-C to 'other' cable connectors is just ****.

I agree with the thinking on this. The MacBook/Air are a good line of consumer products that are fit for many. But they have blurred the lines between the MacBook/Air and Pro to the point where the Pro is more Prosumer than Professional.

If Apple doesn’t wish to change the design of the MacBook Pro and take a step back to what it used to be, I do at least wish the would go the iMac Pro route and make a model for business calling MacBook Pro Workstation or something along those lines. Get rid of the touchbar, stay with a couple USB-C’s, but add some of the ports back as well. Even if it has to be a little thicker. Maybe drop the aluminum alloy, I believe the magnesium alloy used by MS in the Surface devices is lighter weight than aluminum? They could probably make the chassis a little thicker without adding significant weight.
 

windowstomac

macrumors 6502
Jun 23, 2011
274
66
When I am using macOS I never find myself thinking, "wow this is ****, I can't do X. I wish they'd fix that!". It's more like, "thank god I am on my Mac and not my windows machine and I can easily and effortlessly do this task". I really don't see any huge innovations that need to happen on macOS. The only valid criticism I see raised often is how there is no native way to snap windows, and this can easily be remedied by downloading one of many third party tools that give you a massive amount of customization when it comes to window management. You know how many third party apps you'll be downloading on windows or linux just to get the same functionality you get in stock macOS? A **** ton, and they'll be junk more than likely. Try to go to windows and do things like quick preview a file, rename a file while its open, easily edit and sign pdfs without installing some spyware riddled jank third party app, use a clean stock mail app (or for that matter use any set of applications that are clean and coherent in design), quickly send files/images/videos from your phone to your computer, message your friends and family from the same threads of conversations as on your phone (including sms/mms threads), handoff a email you were writing on your phone to your computer, open a website you had open on your phone on your computer, have all the unix underpinnings you would need to create a great development environment, use fluid and simple gestures to easily navigate around, a competent dark mode, and the list goes on and on and on.

As someone who's spent the last week getting used to a Surface Laptop and Windows, all the above is true. Sadly I spent two maddening weeks trying to write thousands of words a day with a dodgy E key, space bar and enter key, three days arguing with Apple about getting it fixed, a non-productive week while I backed up, restored, wiped and packed it up in a box, and am now looking at at least another two weeks to get it replaced because my reward for buying a more expensive "custom spec" machine is a long replacement lead time.

Now I have the dilemma of choosing between getting used to Windows and its quirks, or going back to the MBP when the replacement arrives and wondering when my productivity will suddenly go to s&%t because the keyboard has failed again.

Feels like I can't win.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
As someone who's spent the last week getting used to a Surface Laptop and Windows, all the above is true. Sadly I spent two maddening weeks trying to write thousands of words a day with a dodgy E key, space bar and enter key, three days arguing with Apple about getting it fixed, a non-productive week while I backed up, restored, wiped and packed it up in a box, and am now looking at at least another two weeks to get it replaced because my reward for buying a more expensive "custom spec" machine is a long replacement lead time.

Now I have the dilemma of choosing between getting used to Windows and its quirks, or going back to the MBP when the replacement arrives and wondering when my productivity will suddenly go to s&%t because the keyboard has failed again.

Feels like I can't win.


Nothing slows productivity like having your computer OOC. Just sayin' :)
 
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eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2011
2,537
3,086
Tell me about it!

I just switched back to a surface pro 2017 (I had a Surface Pro 2 and 3 years ago). The software quirks are there, not going to lie. However, it has been a much smoother transition than I thought. The sleep/wake/hibernate issues seem to be fixed. I write thousands of words in Scrivener, and that seems to be working. Editing in Affinity Photo seems fine. Keep at it. Next up I consider an android phone for the first time since the Galaxy S2. Apple is driving me crazy fighting the "right to repair" law in Nebraska.

It won't be long before my hackintosh gets shut down because it doesn't have a T2 chip. Anyway, I am veering into tinfoil hat territory so. Ahem.

I long for old Apple. sigh......
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
7,001
I agree, mainly because Windows 10 is getting better, and the software is becoming more standard between the two. Affinity Photo and Illustrator for example. Same on both.
I’m under the impression eventually MacOS will require a Tx secure chip to handle the boot up - which would put an end to hackintoshing the latest versions of the OS?
 

eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2011
2,537
3,086
I’m under the impression eventually MacOS will require a Tx secure chip to handle the boot up - which would put an end to hackintoshing the latest versions of the OS?

I think it will, yes. I am a little surprised, given how Apple operates, that they have allowed the hackintoshes this long. I saved over $2,000 building mine. It will also end repairs eventually. They want everything to be done by them. They had a glitch not that long ago that if you replaced the screen on an iPhone, but did it third party, it disabled the phone. They reversed whatever it was in the security chip, but that is probably the future. I will have no part of that nonsense.
 
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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
7,001
I think it will, yes. I am a little surprised, given how Apple operates, that they have allowed the hackintoshes this long. I saved over $2,000 building mine. It will also end repairs eventually. They want everything to be done by them. They had a glitch not that long ago that if you replaced the screen on an iPhone, but did it third party, it disabled the phone. They reversed whatever it was in the security chip, but that is probably the future. I will have no part of that nonsense.
Yes I remember the iPhone screen thing, seems a bit OTT when they have no or very limited presence in a lot of countries :( Some things seem slightly better than before with the new MBA (Ports are separate to the mother board and the battery isn’t glued in like on the pros) which gave me some hope Apple might be starting to see sense on this, but with the T2 meaning you’d probably have to go via them for replacements anyway it negates this to a large degree (only remaining benefit I can see is the repair from Apple might be slightly less if they’re not replacing the whole board or top case).
 
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Naaaaak

macrumors 6502a
Mar 26, 2010
638
2,068
Now I have the dilemma of choosing between getting used to Windows and its quirks, or going back to the MBP when the replacement arrives and wondering when my productivity will suddenly go to s&%t because the keyboard has failed again.

Feels like I can't win.

What's the show-stopper with Linux?
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
I had to about face on moving on. Too much going on for me to learn Windows when MS’ site and phone support do not help. Sure, the awesome folks in this sub forum said they would always help, for which I am very grateful. Unfortunately, physical issues prevent me from using any laptop (Apple or PC), and there is no PC desktop that compels me.

Yes, I am miffed at how Apple has changed. Yes, I want them to pull their heads out of their behinds, fix the quality control in hardware, software, and customer support.

Right now though, I have to stay put. So older Apple tech serves me a lot better and that is probably what I will go with.
 

AndyMacAndMic

macrumors 65816
May 25, 2017
1,110
1,669
Western Europe
I had to about face on moving on. Too much going on for me to learn Windows when MS’ site and phone support do not help. Sure, the awesome folks in this sub forum said they would always help, for which I am very grateful. Unfortunately, physical issues prevent me from using any laptop (Apple or PC), and there is no PC desktop that compels me.

Yes, I am miffed at how Apple has changed. Yes, I want them to pull their heads out of their behinds, fix the quality control in hardware, software, and customer support.

Right now though, I have to stay put. So older Apple tech serves me a lot better and that is probably what I will go with.
I am not sure if it was mentioned already, but is the new Mac Mini an option? You can add any keyboard you like, add a Wacom tablet in the future... Etc. Etc.
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
I am not sure if it was mentioned already, but is the new Mac Mini an option? You can add any keyboard you like, add a Wacom tablet in the future... Etc. Etc.

Hi!

Nice to hear from you. @SDColorado also brought up the Mini. I am skittish due to T2 chip kernel panics, Bluetooth issues and coil whine. Plus, I wouldn’t know where to begin with displays and eGPUs (wouldn’t buy Apple’s Black Magic eGPU). I loved the response of the base 4 core Mini at the Apple store though. Price would probably close to 2017 mid tier 27” iMac almost maxed out, so that isn’t too much of an issue. I just do not trust the build/QC on these new machines.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
Hi!

Nice to hear from you. @SDColorado also brought up the Mini. I am skittish due to T2 chip kernel panics, Bluetooth issues and coil whine. Plus, I wouldn’t know where to begin with displays and eGPUs (wouldn’t buy Apple’s Black Magic eGPU). I loved the response of the base 4 core Mini at the Apple store though. Price would probably close to 2017 mid tier 27” iMac almost maxed out, so that isn’t too much of an issue. I just do not trust the build/QC on these new machines.

You could always pick up a Mac Mini through Costco if you do decide to go that route. That would give you a little more time to see if you have any issues such as coil whine or the T2 crashes. It would also come with a 2-year warranty.

I don't believe you have to use the Black Magic eGPU, seems this guy used a Razer Core+ RTX 2070 + .5m Thunderbolt 3 cable

https://egpu.io/forums/builds/late-2018-mac-mini-rtx-207032gbps-tb3-razer-core-w10-1803-theitsage/

But an iMac might be the simpler configuration if you need discrete graphics and don't want to mess with eGPU configurations, etc.
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,103
8,658
Any place but here or there....
Based on what I see is the MBP forum, that issue is largely behind many users now. Tbh, I'm not following the problem as close as I used too, but recent posts seem to indicate a level of stability that is there now that was not in the past.

Many Thanks for posting that.

Unfortunately, I also discovered audio drop out complaints with the Mini now too.:oops: Considering I’d spend over $2k on the Mini I’d like not including display or eGPU: I think I am going to stick with my plan in buying a 2017 iMac.:( I am paying either way (Older tech at a high price, or risking one or more issues with new tech at that same price). I’d love to move away from the iMac, but I am not sure this is the best idea right now.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
Many Thanks for posting that.

Unfortunately, I also discovered audio drop out complaints with the Mini now too.:oops: Considering I’d spend over $2k on the Mini I’d like not including display or eGPU: I think I am going to stick with my plan in buying a 2017 iMac.:( I am paying either way (Older tech at a high price, or risking one or more issues with new tech at that same price). I’d love to move away from the iMac, but I am not sure this is the best idea right now.

Again, there is the Costco and 90-day return option. I believe you would find that within 90-days, if you were going to have T-2 crashes, coil whine, audio-drop out, etc. that they would present themselves before the 90-day return was up.
 

Defthand

macrumors 65816
Sep 1, 2010
1,351
1,712
It's apparent that Apple has transitioned from a professional/prosumer/hobbyist tools business to one focused on consumer toys. The Neo-Apple customers who crowd Apple's stores came for the iPod and stayed for the iPhone.

Jobs wanted to court Joe Consumer from the start, but Jobs naively imagined that Joe would use the PC to improve himself. Instead, Joe only wants entertainment and convenience. He uses a PC at work. In his personal time, he wants to play.

I don't blame Apple for courting Joe Consumer. It's easy money now that Apple has his attention. However, it's not acceptable for Apple to take its MacOS customers for granted, and steer them to a less capable, less flexible, less ergonomic iOS and tablet hardware alternative. That might be a suitable alternative for a laptop and mobile tasks, but not for a desktop.

For what it's worth, I feel that MacOS itself is a mature, polished UX that doesn't need improvement. The current Mac hardware is probably sufficient for most professional applications, including some gpu-intensive tasks. Yet I agree with those who feel Apple isn't giving reasonable value for the cost (e.g. overpriced SSD options). And I strongly oppose Apple's design decisions that prevent after-purchase mods and compromise repairs.

Apple needs to logistically and symbolically separate its MacOS product-verse from the Joe Consumer iOS product-verse. I would prefer to buy my Mac and accessories from a third-party rather than an Apple Store filled with phone zombies and playthings.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
Wasn't some of that also the case under Jobs as well. I just re-watched that series of "I'm a Mac" commercials and the overriding theme was that PC's were for boring business/work stuff like Office and Spreadsheets and Macs where for fun and cool stuff like printing photo books and creating simple web pages with some of their long deceased elements of iLife.

For some reason they never really pushed their pro apps of the time like Final Cut and Aperture ,etc. Instead it was all about iLife, iPhoto, iWeb. It just seems the whole campaign was focused on the home/student/prosumer market. Apple was hip, it was cool, it was fun. PC was for boring people who wanted to do boring stuff like work.
 
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Defthand

macrumors 65816
Sep 1, 2010
1,351
1,712
Wasn't some of that also the case under Jobs as well. I just re-watched that series of "I'm a Mac" commercials and the overriding theme was that PC's were for boring business/work stuff like Office and Spreadsheets and Macs where for fun and cool stuff like printing photo books and creating simple web pages with some of their long deceased elements of iLife.

For some reason they never really pushed their pro apps of the time like Final Cut and Aperture ,etc. Instead it was all about iLife, iPhoto, iWeb. It just seems the whole campaign was focused on the home/student/prosumer market. Apple was hip, it was cool, it was fun. PC was for boring people who wanted to do boring stuff like work.

Yes, it began during the Jobs era. Yes, Apple double-downed on its effort to attract recreational PC users while Apple had their attention during the iPod phenomenom.

It wasn’t Apple’s apps that drew academics and creative professionals to the Mac. Aldus (Adobe), Macromedia, Quark and others provided the apps. It was the simplicity and reliability of the Mac’s OS that was appealing. Apple defined plug-n-play computing. By the time the iPod emerged, Apple had already won the endorsement of the non-suit-wearing professional.

Jobs felt that the inelegance and high maintenance of Windows was preventing the average person from doing sophisticated things with their PCs. Yet it’s unclear if those who migrated to the Mac for its OS, also did so for the equally elegant and amusing iWork and iLife apps.

If the typical recreational user was interested in creating or managing things, desktop sales would not be in decline. In reality, those users are content to surf, consume, and socialize. They are content to produce only snapshots and opinions.
 
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