Mac Pro 2011 "Sandy Bridge E" everything we know

[deconstruct60]

I have an idea:

Shove some E3's in the lower end Mac Pro

Only have 20 PCI-e lanes. [ most board "fake" multiple 16x slots by sharing bandwidth or chopping down to 8x. ]

E3 has enough for a video card (16x) and Thunderbolt (4x) and that's about it.

Some E7 10-cores in the higher end Mac Pros

The E7's are a generation behind in microarchitecture (although the ring bus cache is relatively modern). The E7's from April 2011 just got Westmere. The Sandy Bridge E7's probably aren't due till 2H 2012 at this point if they have not slid into 2013.

E7's are more expensive than E5's at anywhere near the similar clock speeds. There is no good upside in putting them in a Mac Pro.

 

[goMac]

Apple should just put : random processor here : into the Mac Pro.

 

[Eidorian]

'we' -- the desktop/deskside workstation , power user crowd? No.

'we' -- the telecom server in a power limited cage at a networking center crowd? Probably Yes.

Remember the high bandwidth PCI-e lanes come out of that "big" package. If had four , relatively low TDP, 8x PCI-e networking cards to put in a box which was going to largely bring in I/O and largely just push it right back out ......... two 3GHz cores is enough in many cases.

Using the same socket means can get board design reuse for some or all of the aspects needed for that submarket of servers.

I keep getting bitten by the fact that the processor now has the PCIe controller onboard, that you get more lanes (as if 40 was not enough) based on the number of processors, and not the IOH anymore. Your suggested usage scenario makes perfect sense.

Lack of cards given to the gamer/tweaker crowd reviewer sites. Yeah, probably so. PCI-e v3 cards would be locked up in NDAs at this point.

I do not even think ATI or nVidia have cards out under NDA. (from rumor at least...) Those would be the most likely. Though I can imagine some high bandwidth I/O card sitting somewhere out there with 3.0 support.

 

[deconstruct60]

I keep getting bitten by the fact that the processor now

It really isn't a "processor" or CPU anymore. It is a package that contains multiple aspects. For Haswell some of the mobile offerings will have practically the whole I/O hub (what was North an Southbridge) inside the single package.

I do not even think ATI or nVidia have cards out under NDA. (from rumor at least...) Those would be the most likely.

They probably do to software/hardware vendors that need them. there was in-house working silicon for Southern Islands (AMD's 7000) in July according to some accounts. AMD and nVidia are bit in part because they bought into the hype that TSMC 28nm process would be mature by now ...... not. That's why they have slid into 2012. Those are naturally what the gamer/tweaker sites are going to want to drop into multiple systems to normalize the hardware being compared. Given those are likely just engineering samples with mostly untested drivers at this point... probably covered by NDA. Just not to the reviewer/rumor sites.

Though I can imagine some high bandwidth I/O card sitting somewhere out there with 3.0 support.

There are cards.
"...The mezzanine is connected to the main board with PCIe Gen 3 links, which is necessary if the FDR adapter is to run at its full 56 Gbps speed. ... "
http://www.hpcwire.com/hpcwire/2011...r,_denser_ice_machine_for_supercomputing.html

Some just cost more than most people's whole rigs around here.

None of the benchmarks typically trotted out by gamer/tweaker sites would even see the difference even if the initial set of v3 cards were present. The current software is geared toward almost 8x v2 levels of bandwidth.

 

[Eidorian]

It really isn't a "processor" or CPU anymore. It is a package that contains multiple aspects. For Haswell some of the mobile offerings will have practically the whole I/O hub (what was North an Southbridge) inside the single package.

I have also noticed how the IGP, northbridge, and soon PCH will be on what we simply considered the CPU die just a few years ago.

I still remember the time when you required a dedicated sound, modem, and NIC card. That was not so long ago either.

There are cards.
"...The mezzanine is connected to the main board with PCIe Gen 3 links, which is necessary if the FDR adapter is to run at its full 56 Gbps speed. ... "
http://www.hpcwire.com/hpcwire/2011...r,_denser_ice_machine_for_supercomputing.html

Some just cost more than most people's whole rigs around here.

None of the benchmarks typically trotted out by gamer/tweaker sites would even see the difference even if the initial set of v3 cards were present. The current software is geared toward almost 8x v2 levels of bandwidth.

Thanks, I do not often delve into HPC hardware.

 

[Hellhammer]

They probably do to software/hardware vendors that need them. there was in-house working silicon for Southern Islands (AMD's 7000) in July according to some accounts. AMD and nVidia are bit in part because they bought into the hype that TSMC 28nm process would be mature by now ...... not. That's why they have slid into 2012. Those are naturally what the gamer/tweaker sites are going to want to drop into multiple systems to normalize the hardware being compared. Given those are likely just engineering samples with mostly untested drivers at this point... probably covered by NDA. Just not to the reviewer/rumor sites.

AMD has already demoed a mobile 7000 series GPU, so there are working silicons (and some level of driver support too).

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4797/amd-shows-off-mobility-radeon-hd-7000

 

[Jack40]

Mac Pro its Dead

Mac pro is dead!!!!!!!

 

[beaker7]

Mac pro is dead!!!!!!!

nope.

 

[Jack40]

I hope you're right

I hope you're right

 

[Tutor]

I have read every review of the 3960X Extreme Edition appearing on my Google search for them, and I guess Anand sums up the future of the new SB's best :

"As for the future of the platform, Intel has already begun talking about Ivy Bridge E. If it follows the pattern set for Ivy Bridge on LGA-1155, IVB-E should be a drop in replacement for LGA-2011 motherboards [we'll probably need an EFI hack]. The biggest issue there is timing. Ivy will arrive for the mainstream LGA-1155 platforms around the middle of 2012. At earliest, I don't know that we'd see it for LGA-2011 until the end of next year, or perhaps even early 2013 given the late launch of SNB-E. This seems to be the long-term downside to these ultra high-end desktop platforms these days: you end up on a delayed release cadence for each tick/tock on the roadmap. If you've always got to have the latest and greatest, this may prove to be frustrating. Based on what we know of Ivy Bridge however, I suspect that if you're using all six of these cores in SNB-E that you'll wish you had IVB-E sooner, but won't be tempted away from the platform by a quad-core Ivy Bridge on LGA-1155.

I do worry about the long term viability of the ultra high-end desktop platform. As we showed here, some of the gains in threaded apps exceed 50% over a standard Sandy Bridge. That's tangible performance to those who can use it. With the growth in cloud computing it's clear there's demand for these types of chips in servers. I just hope Intel continues to offer a version for desktop users as well. " ( http://www.anandtech.com/print/5091 )

Thus, goes the Mac Pro, even if Apple wants to continue producing them, tied to Intel's frustrating, gaga-priced lifeline. CPUs priced too high and released tardily jeopardize the high end desktop Mac Pro's (as well as high end desktop Windows and Linux PC's) future too. Don't they realize that we're still in the grip of the Great Recession for which the WSJ prognosticators say we will not fully recover from for another decade?

 

[jayhawk11]

Seeing as how we're starting to get closer to SNB-E's release, I thought this thread should get bumped. Lots of good info in the OP.

 

[JesterJJZ]

So to recap, we're probably looking at:

SATA 3.0 (6Gb/s)
PCIe 3.0 32x
Thunderbolt
USB 3.0?
Quad Channel RAM

What else? Obviously faster processors and more cores.

 

[Umbongo]

There will be 40 PCI-E lanes Jester. If their Thunderbolt solution does go through the graphics card then I would expect these to be locked at x16, x16, x4, x4 so that there is enough bandwidth for the GPU and Thunderbolt on the x16 slots. But the platform allows them to be configurable to say x16, x8, x8, x8.

Graphics cards seem likely to come from the 7700, 7800 and 7900 series of AMD's latest Southern Islands based cards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series

 

[Mac2012]

*subscribe to thread

I know nothing.

Must work for apple... I would have gotten a job with them but I find they like to hire kids who have worked at the GAP instead of hiring people who KNOW content creation on OSX!

----------

Absolutely.


Exactly.

When I think of "custom", I think of a different circuit topology (at least some modifications/add-ons from any other part, such as ARM architecture + other bits used, such as SATA controllers, in specialized SoC's). Not a modification of an existing chip that doesn't change the circuits (i.e. same CPU, but without the IHS that would be included in any OEM or boxed CPU of the same P/N).

I can't for the life of me see Apple paying Intel to make a truly custom CPU for the MP. The evidence available indicates that the sales volume of the MP just isn't large enough to keep the R&D per unit low enough to justify such a decision.

Nor Intel have another complete enterprise design sitting on a shelf they're not already using at all. Just collecting dust until Apple asked if they had anything as was the case with the CPU for the first generation Air. Financially speaking, this would have more merit than Apple hiring Intel to do a truly custom CPU for the MP though.

You know what would be funny is if Apple wanted to, they could BUY anything they wanted! They have the CASH!

 

[Mac2012]

40 PCIe 3.0 lanes (!!!), yes, that mean if OS X supported Crossfire and the MP had a beefy enough PSU you could have 4x6970s running at full throttle, 60FPS on six monitors anyone?

Na, don't play games... I make $$ with my comps. I want RAW horsepower to burn through renders and DSP to do music... go get an XBOX man!

 

[Bubba Satori]

Apple should just put : random processor here : into the Mac Pro.

Yes and update it when new CPUs and GPUs are available.
Would it kill the largest corporation in the Universe to offer,
say 3 Mac Pro models? Geez....

 

[Topper]

...the largest corporation in the Universe to offer...

Universe? I know of a corporation on GJ 667Cc that is 4 times more valuable than Apple.

 

[nanofrog]

You know what would be funny is if Apple wanted to, they could BUY anything they wanted! They have the CASH!

ASIC is expensive, particularly for something this complicated.

Unlike the ARM based chips they're working on for the device market, the MP is too small a product to make this kind of investment (not enough units to justify the expense). If they did this for the MP only, it would either be too expensive that no one would be willing/able to buy it, or they'd loose money on every unit sold.

And I don't see Apple being into loss-leader products when I look at their history, especially with such an expensive system like the MP.

It's certainly a way they can blow through their cash in a hurry, and seriously cut into their profits if they wanted to, but I just don't see it happening. They're in business to make money, just like any other corporation.

 

[Amethyst]

Still want a new Mac pro. although just buy old mac pro.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Universe? I know of a corporation on GJ 667Cc that is 4 times more valuable than Apple.

Zaphod Beeblebrox Headwear PLC was bought by the Vogons for 10 trillion pounds.
They then discovered that Zaphod had played them for fools and that it was an utterly worthless enterprise.
Apple still rules.
This story does not have a moral, because I am utterly bereft of them.

 

[barkmonster]

The low end Mac Mini keeps getting better performance per £ than than Mac Pro and the Mac Pro keeps getting more expensive.

There needs to be an entry level Mac Pro in the £1,500 - £1.750 price range with 6 years of processor power improvement to show for the price!

I'd just go with the Mac Mini myself and get an authorised repair company to fit a Vertex/Agility 3 SSD and 16Gb of 3rd party RAM because it would be a killer system for my needs but I'd love the option of something other than a Mac Mini when the iMac is useless for my needs (2 screens, Pro Tools, software synths, SSD for recording in a firewire case, SSD for booting/streaming audio to software synths, regular HD for general storage).

This table illustrates how Apple need to be putting out a system for that price point with a solid 12,000+ in geekbench that doesn't scrimp on RAM slots either.

 

[xper]

I'd love the option of something other than a Mac Mini when the iMac is useless for my needs (2 screens)

Why is 2 screens on your list? The iMac can do atleast 3

 

[barkmonster]

Why is 2 screens on your list? The iMac can do atleast 3

The 21.5" iMac?

I already have 2 monitors, I don't want to shove one in a cupboard to make space for an iMac, I don't want a glossy display or an all-in-one system that's difficult to upgrade.

The Mac Mini can take a second internal drive for definite with only a few standard drive screws and a lower flex cable for power/data. It can also take 16Gb of 3rd party RAM and it would make a fanastic media centre at a later date too. An all in one is just taking up space once you upgrade to a newer model.

Also, I like my setup with 2 screens side by side and I absolutely NEED to have an SSD as well as an ordinary internal drive to stream software synths (not some over-priced BTO drive that isn't even Sandforce based from Apple either).

 

[xgman]

I have top hand it to Apple though. They seem to be doing a much better job these days about keeping secrets under wraps. You hardly ever hear any rumors that pan out anymore.

 

[goMac]

Yes and update it when new CPUs and GPUs are available.
Would it kill the largest corporation in the Universe to offer,
say 3 Mac Pro models? Geez....

There are no CPU updates available really. The Mac Pro is still using the latest Xeons.

GPUs are another matter that has been pretty thoroughly rehashed on this board.

My comment was more directed at people who insist non sensibly that Apple should adopt slower/non-existant AMD/ARM/PowerPC processors just because the Xeon is no longer new shiny.

The low end Mac Mini keeps getting better performance per £ than than Mac Pro and the Mac Pro keeps getting more expensive.

This isn't really surprising. Price per performance unit increases exponentially. Same thing with price per GB. A 3 TB hard drive might be $250, while a 2 TB is $100. Again, exponential increase, not linear. That's just the way tech is.