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ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
2023-01-12-image-23-j_1100.jpeg
Another reason why you want 3rd party GPUs:

 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
What are you on about? To spread disinformation, I'd have to post something that was false. Apple has Mac Pro manufacturing set up in China, and if they were actually producing them in high volume, they'd probably shift the US units there as well. Because money.

According to rumors the Mac Pro (2023) will be assembled in Vietnam.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
Another reason why you want 3rd party GPUs:
Metal 3 introduced a DirectStorage equivalent called "Metal Fast Resource Loading" that allows direct asynchronous loading of compressed resources from SSD. I don't know what the benchmarks are, but it would surprise me if Apple Silicon wasn't hitting similar numbers.

This does also mean that if Apple does support discrete GPUs in the Mac Pro then they could abstract the loading away into this API, so that developers don't need to worry if they are running on an iGPU or a dGPU.
 

Joe The Dragon

macrumors 65816
Jul 26, 2006
1,031
524
Metal 3 introduced a DirectStorage equivalent called "Metal Fast Resource Loading" that allows direct asynchronous loading of compressed resources from SSD. I don't know what the benchmarks are, but it would surprise me if Apple Silicon wasn't hitting similar numbers.

This does also mean that if Apple does support discrete GPUs in the Mac Pro then they could abstract the loading away into this API, so that developers don't need to worry if they are running on an iGPU or a dGPU.
they need to make it work with PCI-E m.2 devices and not the slower and X2 the cost APPLE SSDS
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
When you want to plan to buy a machine like this, you need to know more about the technology. Same thing for windows 11 support (which is already not native on 7.1 so we can assume that the AMD RX 7900 will not be 7.1 compatible) and external GPUs.

Pretty likely that one contributing reason why Apple doesn't do forward looking roadmap discussions is because sometimes folks do not even listen when they do. Apple made statements that virtualization was the only Windows path two years ago .... and yet still in the mode where folks are looking for what they want to hear instead of what Apple said.

Furthermore, Apple only allows virtualiztaion layered on top of their hypervisor framework on Apple Silicon. So some 3rd party VM software marker doesn't call the shots of basic functionality. Apple is doing it.

Apple is not technically supporting any other 'native' OS other than macOS. [ They are not stopping the hackery that AShai Linux is doing but they are not providing support ( support service agreement) either. ]

Apple completely walked away from EFI/UEFI (and any semblance of old school BIOS. ). The native, 'raw iron', boot foundation that Apple is using is iBoot (iPhone) based. And they are not looking back (aspects of UEFI security they grumbled about even when back in the Intel era that lead to T2 and other measures). The virtual machine framework can have a virtual UEFI attached. If need Arm+UEFI boot that is the parth they laid out two years ago.

Similarly, Apple has announced several years ago that kernel extensions were deprecated (on the way out and stop working in future). They introduced a new DriverKit API for constructing drivers. That abstraction hierarchy has PCI-e card elements , but not a specific subclass for display GPUs (like the old IOKIt API had). Even if there ever were drivers for 3rd party GPUs they wouldn't be rolled out the same way as before. So off the shelf retail cards working like they did isn't particularly well grounded. Apple is not promoting that in any way. Apple said at the DriverKit introduction ( WWDC 2019) that it was incomplete and they would flush it out over the next couple of years. Well, we are past 'next couple of years'. (2019 + 4 years is 2023. )

The off-the-shelf amd RX 7900 cards boot off of what firmware? UEFI. Is UEFI present? No. What is the mystery you are pondering at this point? The path to UEFI on Apple Silicon is via a virtual machine with a virtual UEFI implementation.

Drivers for AMD GPU cards? The official GPU support matrix introduced at WWDC 2020 had only Apple GPU in it for GPU drivers. Given Zero information to long term plan with? So a July 2020 plan with no 3rd party GPU elements in the matrix for 2021 , 2022 would have been 'off base' how? WWDC 2021 came and went no change. WWDC 2022 came and went no change. So a reasonable plan for 2023 would be beyond inference ?

Apple has laid out about a $500-700 gap between the M1 Pro and M1 Max. They have laid out a $1,400 gap between the M1 Max and M1 Ultra. So there is no way to plot a trend line to what a "double ultra " would cost. 700 , 1400 , x x-- is some deep dark mystery? Apple's pricing for SSD is not uniform across M-series products? Apple's pricing for Memory is not uniform across M-series products ?


Apple should make a keynote quickly devoted to Apple Silicon chips and the mac Pro (as well as the replacement for the mac mini intel).

The M1 , M1 Pro/Max , and M1 Ultra all had 'keynote' presentations.

Apple isn't going to run a "please buy my chip" presentation exactly like AMD and Intel do. There is no rational reason why they should exactly 'mimic' the presentation framework of those two. Apple is in a completely different business. Apple sells completed systems. The other two sell components for systems. The latter has to convince system vendors to buy and incorporate their chips into the general market systems. Apple's SoC team doesn't have to complete. Neither are they going to directly sell the SoC to anyone.

For the Mac Pro some people try to position that Apple is in the 'container' / 'bare bones system' business. I highly doubt Apple looks at the Mac Pro completely that way. It is likely primarily still viewed as a completed system sale. One with more options than the other Macs in the line up , but as a system 'first' and 'options' as a 2nd or 3rd level feature.


Last two Mac Pro iterations Apple has done a 6 month "sneak peak" at the next Mac Pro. It would not hurt their "not discussion future products" policy to continue that just for the Mac Pro. It is a system that has optional components to fit inside. Doing extensive components validations with draconian NDA is likely pretty hopeless of not producing any leaks. The "delight and surprise our customers" notion should get dialed back substantially. [ There is such a ginormous supply chain around the iPhone it really doesn't happen there either. Too many people in the 'secret' group and leaks are bound to pop out. ]

But tit-for-tat , feature war battles with Intel and AMD (and Nvidia ) with competing roadmaps .... that isn't likely to happen at all.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Metal 3 introduced a DirectStorage equivalent called "Metal Fast Resource Loading" that allows direct asynchronous loading of compressed resources from SSD. I don't know what the benchmarks are, but it would surprise me if Apple Silicon wasn't hitting similar numbers.

This does also mean that if Apple does support discrete GPUs in the Mac Pro then they could abstract the loading away into this API, so that developers don't need to worry if they are running on an iGPU or a dGPU.

The fact that Apple had to explicitly add a "DirectStorage" API instead of just using the same API they have now is exactly indicative of why that "it doesn't matter iGPU or discrete GPU " API won't work. You can hand wave at one of those and also get the other.
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
yes, and one could also consider external GPUs made by Apple (like MPX modules). I imagine the Mac Pro Apple silicon with an m2 ultra and expansion cards available depending on the use you want to make of it: sound cards, video acceleration cards, additional GPU power, storage, etc. ...
 
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Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
The M1 , M1 Pro/Max , and M1 Ultra all had 'keynote' presentations.

Apple isn't going to run a "please buy my chip" presentation exactly like AMD and Intel do. There is no rational reason why they should exactly 'mimic' the presentation framework of those two. Apple is in a completely different business. Apple sells completed systems. The other two sell components for systems. The latter has to convince system vendors to buy and incorporate their chips into the general market systems. Apple's SoC team doesn't have to complete. Neither are they going to directly sell the SoC to anyone.
Convince pro users who don't know if they should wait or buy a windows-nvidia workstation, that seems important to me too.
You don't buy one or more macs pros like you buy a macbook air or an imac.
 

fuchsdh

macrumors 68020
Jun 19, 2014
2,028
1,831
yes, and one could also consider external GPUs made by Apple (like MPX modules). I imagine the Mac Pro Apple silicon with an m2 ultra and expansion cards available depending on the use you want to make of it: sound cards, video acceleration cards, additional GPU power, storage, etc. ...
Some of this stuff sounds a lot like the Mac Pro rumors where it was going to be a bunch of stacked minis basically, with different modular boxes. Everyone pointed out that the interconnects would be a huge PITA, and that for such a low volume product making a ton of SKUs didn't make sense. To that point, I don't think it particularly makes sense for Apple to take the same tack, but doing it in an internal chassis.
 

seek3r

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2010
2,564
3,779
I see them as build boxes and.... that's about it.

I literally don't know anyone who's bought one as a consumer. Do you? Anyone in your family have a Mini? Any friends have a Mini? Have you seen a Mini actually on someones desk in the last 5 years? Cause I have not.

I'm the only one I know who has a Mini and mine isn't even on a desk. It sits as a server in the basement.
I have one as a consumer, my always on desktop, so do my parents, so do several folks I know....
 

Mac3Duser

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2021
183
139
Some of this stuff sounds a lot like the Mac Pro rumors where it was going to be a bunch of stacked minis basically, with different modular boxes. Everyone pointed out that the interconnects would be a huge PITA, and that for such a low volume product making a ton of SKUs didn't make sense. To that point, I don't think it particularly makes sense for Apple to take the same tack, but doing it in an internal chassis.
of course , in an internal chassis
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
The fact that Apple had to explicitly add a "DirectStorage" API instead of just using the same API they have now is exactly indicative of why that "it doesn't matter iGPU or discrete GPU " API won't work. You can hand wave at one of those and also get the other.
What is "the same API they have now"? If you want to load data into Metal without fast resource loading you have to load it manually from disk using the CPU. There is no current API for loading from SSDs.

The entire point of DirectStorage on the PC is that it allows sending compressed data directly from disk over PCI-e to GPU memory. On the Mac that's not really necessary because GPU memory is CPU memory. The compression and syncing provided by Fast Resource Loading is nice however.

Currently it doesn't particularly matter iGPU or discrete GPU except for the storage mode on your buffers metal handles all the expensive memory syncing required for dGPUs. Fast Resource Loading could just be yet another layer of abstraction.
 

SYCAMOREGRAD

macrumors regular
May 23, 2006
168
93
Indianapolis
As you all know, Apple will have to pry my Intel based Mac Pro 7.1 out of my cold dead fingers, because I won't let go. I won't leave behind it's 28 cores, it's 2 w6800x Duos, it's ridiculous GPU power while rendering in Octane and Unreal...and yeah, I'll pick up whatever is coming next with the AS Mac Pro 8.1, and it'll be something I use ALONGSIDE my 7.1

Unless...

And I never thought about this until now, because it seems crazy, and because nobody has ever mentioned it with all the fuss around AS, but...

What if...

Apple has been working on an entirely separate chip very specifically designed just for the current Mac Pro? What if they realized long ago that the M family wouldn't scale and be able to outperform the monster they designed with the current 7.1 Mac Pro?

What if, they keep everything about the current awesome design that is the 7,1 Mac Pro, and just cut out the intel?

64 cores, w7800x duos, still 100% customizable in every way, but running on a brand new custom designed, and for the Mac Pro only CPU and motherboard...

I'll admit, I'm 5 glasses of moscato into my home girls dinner party right now, but it came to mind and so I had to hop on here and just vomit my nonsense all over the message board and see how ya'll responded LOL.

But seriously though..what if...
Yay for moscato!
 
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MacPoulet

macrumors 6502a
Dec 11, 2012
627
465
Canada
I see them as build boxes and.... that's about it.

I literally don't know anyone who's bought one as a consumer. Do you? Anyone in your family have a Mini? Any friends have a Mini? Have you seen a Mini actually on someones desk in the last 5 years? Cause I have not.

I'm the only one I know who has a Mini and mine isn't even on a desk. It sits as a server in the basement.
I have a Mini that I retired. I got a 2012 model for my in-laws and they have since replaced it with an M1 mini. It sits nicely on their desk. Not sure what’s so strange about that…

A former student uses an Intel Mini with an eGPU for Logic. He loves it.

*edit typos*
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
So this is a strange moment we are living in. Damn near an alternate timeline. Never in my life did I think I would be PRAISING the idea of an Intel Mac Pro for the 8.1

I really, truly believed Apple would find a way to just create an AS Mac Pro 8.1 that happened to allow for DGPU expansion among other things "Ram, storage, etc..."

Yet, here we are, with what seems to be most of this board feeling like the upcoming AS Mac Pro isn't going to allow any of these things.

I'm also coming to grips with a sad reality if this is the case...that Apple has truly decided to give up on professional visual creatives.

Sure the Mac Studio Max/Ultra are powerful enough to run a music studio and sure, they can handle 2D motion graphics and light 3D work just fine. But anything beyond that is going to break one of two things; the innards of the machine, or the minds of the creatives.

I don't want to believe this is the direction that Apple is taking and damnit I will fight to hold on to my reasonable ignorance and claim what's left of my resulting bliss and hope against all hope "and the majority of this message board" that Apple has not given up on those of us that want MORE!
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
There are rumors for a March announcement, but if the 8,1 supports AMD GPUs then I think it's more likely the announcement will be in June at WWDC with deliveries in the fall. That's because Apple will need to include better GPUs for it than are currently available for the 7,1. The workstation variants of the RX 7000 GPUs will likely appear in June. (The Radeon Pro W6800 was announced in June 2021 after the RX 6000 series in November & December 2020.)

If RX 7000 series GPU drivers appear in macOS that will be a strong indication that the 8,1 supports AMD graphics.
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
There are rumors for a March announcement, but if the 8,1 supports AMD GPUs then I think it's more likely the announcement will be in June at WWDC with deliveries in the fall. That's because Apple will need to include better GPUs for it than are currently available for the 7,1. The workstation variants of the RX 7000 GPUs will likely appear in June. (The Radeon Pro W6800 was announced in June 2021 after the RX 6000 series in November & December 2020.)

If RX 7000 series GPU drivers appear in macOS that will be a strong indication that the 8,1 supports AMD graphics.
Mmmmmmmm I LIKE that theory!! Very true. Hope is alive yet again!

Also, you know what? When I started this thread, I had a crazy theory that quite frankly, still might be true. I got lost in all the pessimism but the reality is, I very well may still be right...

Apple may've been creating an entirely separate and brand new chip for the Mac Pro and their own GPU to accompany it. They may not have given up on folks like myself just yet. Maybe they're still not showing it because when they do, they want it to blow the roof off of anything anyone else out there AMD, Nvidia, whoever...may be offering...

After all, that's what this was all about in the first place.

What if...
 

avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,227
1,074
Ventura works on Macs with AMD graphics so isn't as if there are not already AMD drivers in Ventura. I just looked on my laptop which I just upgraded to Ventura and both the Intel iGPU and the AMD 560X both show Metal 3.
 
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AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
Ventura works on Macs with AMD graphics so isn't as if there are not already AMD drivers in Ventura. I just looked on my laptop which I just upgraded to Ventura and both the Intel iGPU and the AMD 560X both show Metal 3.
Yes, on Intel Macs. There are no drivers for AS Macs (otherwise eGPUs would work with AS Macs and they don’t). Nothing to do with Ventura.
 

avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,227
1,074
Yes, on Intel Macs. There are no drivers for AS Macs (otherwise eGPUs would work with AS Macs and they don’t). Nothing to do with Ventura.
The bigger problem is probably the boot/bios/whatever Apple is using, not OS drivers. The OS drivers are already there.
 

AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
The bigger problem is probably the boot/bios/whatever Apple is using, not OS drivers. The OS drivers are already there.
UEFI (or lack of thereof) is an entirely different problem, indeed. But, I'm afraid that you are mistaken when it comes to driver support. The drivers are not "there" for Apple Silicon Macs. They simply do not exist. None of AS Macs presently available can work with any dGPU AMD (or other) cards via Thunderbolt. Prove me wrong 😉
 

avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
1,227
1,074
UEFI (or lack of thereof) is an entirely different problem, indeed. But, I'm afraid that you are mistaken when it comes to driver support. The drivers are not "there" for Apple Silicon Macs. They simply do not exist. None of AS Macs presently available can work with any dGPU AMD (or other) cards via Thunderbolt. Prove me wrong 😉
I know they are not present currently on the Apple Silicon machines, but drivers "do" exist in the overall Ventura pipeline; I am pretty sure Apple has the software savvy to re-compile their AMD drivers to work on Apple Silicon, it is just that Apple is stubborn and/or has more important things on the "to do" list.
 
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innerproduct

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2021
222
353
So… with the probable announcement of m2 max machines through a press release later today I guess we can rule out 3 nm and hardware raytracing. Probably this will come with the m3 series or maybe first as a afterburner type card.
 
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goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
The fact that Apple had to explicitly add a "DirectStorage" API instead of just using the same API they have now is exactly indicative of why that "it doesn't matter iGPU or discrete GPU " API won't work. You can hand wave at one of those and also get the other.

Huh? Didn't DirectX also explicitly add a DirectStorage API instead of using they same API they had?

Metal Fast Resource loading is just a new feature in the Metal API. It's not like they through the whole buffer API out and started over. It's just an extension.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,478
3,174
Stargate Command
Base M1 SoC had no Media Engine, base M2 SoC does...

Base M2 SoC has no hardware ray-tracing, maybe M2 Pro/Max (Ultra) will...?
 
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