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MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...
- Thread starter maikerukun
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Now, m2 max results for redshift renderer is trickling in. It finishes the std bench in about 7:30, which is almost 30% faster than m1 max. So no magic improvements like in blender. Maybe RS is already optimized. Who knows. Worst (probable) case for a m2 ultra (same 30% improvement from m1 ultra) gives an estimate of 5:10. Might be better scaling, and in that case the upper limit would be 2xm2max, that is 3:45. Let’s hope for a reasonable 4 mins then, or about as fast as a single 5 year old nvidia 2080 ti.
People on the Maxon RS forum post their dual 4090 scores that are in the sub 40s range.
I could easily live with a 4 min rendering speed for a m2ultra studio at 4000$ . I would hower find it unacceptable for a loaded mac pro where there are no upgrades for down the line. Either it would have to be cheap (same price as studio) or it should be possible to have it maxed to beat the PC competition at a price.
For 8k I would expect about the same perf across the boards as a single 4090.
I can see myself justifying a 10K rig with that perf as well. Hopefully we’ll be surprised!
People on the Maxon RS forum post their dual 4090 scores that are in the sub 40s range.
I could easily live with a 4 min rendering speed for a m2ultra studio at 4000$ . I would hower find it unacceptable for a loaded mac pro where there are no upgrades for down the line. Either it would have to be cheap (same price as studio) or it should be possible to have it maxed to beat the PC competition at a price.
For 8k I would expect about the same perf across the boards as a single 4090.
I can see myself justifying a 10K rig with that perf as well. Hopefully we’ll be surprised!
For cpu bound activities, yes, for gpu, I don’t think so. not unless they support 3rd party GPUs.
By saying 'same price', how much more expensive do you mean?
Or do you mean/expect that the 2019 Mac Pro format, with at least a few PCI-slots and room for HDDs, with M2 Ultra will sell for the same as the Mac Studio, which is closed and sized as a toddler's shoebox?
I am stating as clearly as I can that in order for the product to be interesting to me, it has to fulfill certain criteria. You may not have the same criteria and that is ok.
I find the “studio” ridiculously overpriced in the form it is interesting technically, that is a full ultra with 128 ram and 4 TB disk. In order for a mac pro to be interesting to me it has to either be priced “low”, at worst like the current overpriced studio, or it should be so extreme that it is truly competitive in raw performance compared to pc. for context, to me macs only lack power when it comes to rendering (rs, octane etc).
My 7,1 does the redshift benchmark is 1:38. Some ways for the AS to catch it.
LMFAO! You really just keep ignoring that 2 w6800x duo's in Octane is still going to be 3x faster than an m2 Ultra...so no, it will not be better than a $50k Mac Pro 2019 anyway. The CPU will smoke it. easily. As does anything in the M series. This was NEVER about the CPU though...
I don't think people are understanding this lololol. The M series chips are simply nowhere near what top end GPU 2019 Mac Pro is doing...not even close.
Indeed. On the RS forum they are some that are excited by a 7min RS benchmark on AS. Good for them but that’s not for me.
I have an m1 air and the renderview isn’t bad in it, but when it comes finally crunching those pixels it’s slow. I’m just to impatient!
For a Mac to be anywhere near the nvidia benchmarks of dual 3090s it has to be packing some punch. As I understand it because AMD cards lack hardware RT, they rely on just pure grunt to get anywhere near those times.
looks like the computer choice depends very much on the software you are going to use.
For me it depends on the ecosystem in my work and home environments...both being 98% Apple means I would always choose the Apple option first if possible. And it is possible...or at least was up to around...2019 lol.
and it should continue to remain possible -- for we are in 2023 FFS!
*fingers crossed that they don't disappoint us
it's pretty sure they will make an "afterburner like" card for rendering/graphics, an apple mpx module in the m2 ultra mac pro. They are not crazy, they know the power of nvidia gpus
If the 8.1 Mac Pro has the 7.1 case it is not for nothing, or just for cooling. Now imagine three or four Accelerator cards made in apple in mpx modules for graphics and rendering.
Obviously, if the M2 ultra base Mac Pro starts at 5000$ (enough for audio), and each card is 2000$, you could have your 10000$ workstation easily
same thing for the ram, imagine something like a "swap" card.
it's simple, I think.
and I don't think that Apple will only make a naked M2 ultra in a 7.1 case with only SSD upgrades
Obviously, if the M2 ultra base Mac Pro starts at 5000$ (enough for audio), and each card is 2000$, you could have your 10000$ workstation easily
same thing for the ram, imagine something like a "swap" card.
it's simple, I think.
and I don't think that Apple will only make a naked M2 ultra in a 7.1 case with only SSD upgrades
Imagine three or four accelerator cards being largely ignored because most software developers write software with the assumption that the primary compute will be handled by the display GPU, and 3D (if not most graphics) on Apple lives largely on the "if it's not too difficult" crumbs of Windows development.
Imagine the marketing of an AS Mac Pro that could only drive a third, to a quarter of the number of screens the Intel version it "replaced" could drive. Do you hear that in the distance, it's the upcoming laughter of an industry at Apple making a workstation that can't use display GPUs, despite being no more performant than workstations which can.
‘After all that toil, why couldn’t they write a driver for 3rd party GPUs. Somehow getting into the business of making your own GPUs from scratch is more “reasonable” than writing a freakin driver?
If they have display connectors, they're just GPUs, why call them "accelerators"?
At the end, this is what it comes down to. People will decide what works for them...
...but what I'm trying to get at is:
In this wonderful think-tank that this thread has become, in order to see into the future, people are throwing ideas out there based on what we believe we know: same case, based on M2 Apple Silicon parts, reveal between spring and summer.... Since we know the case of the Mac Studio and the parts in it, I asked the question since I read your previous statement ("either it would have to be cheap as in = same price as studio, or....") as if you had it as a possibility that Apple would sell the new Mac Pro for the same price as the Mac Studio.
Personally, I can see a scenario where the cheapest Mac Pro is cheaper than the most expensive Mac Studio, but when comparing AS tier to AS tier, the Mac Pro will be more expensive.
Ok. Yeah, we are a bunch of rambling fools here that might have to much time on our hands I guess 😂
I have no insights into how well the studio has sold, but it can’t have done good. I just find the price ridiculous. Especially in Europe. The full ultra have perf similar to a 12900 coupled with a nvidia 3060. For 5000$ !upgrading the ssd with 1 tb? 4x the price of what it should be. Sure it is small but it is not beautiful as the thrashcan was. So no reason to buy for pure beauty-lust.
I found a way to justify a loaded 16 mbp but that one has some great properties being mobile and an excellent screen. Who in their right mind buys a Mac Studio? Twice the price as the almost reasonable iMac it replaced? I really don’t get it. When apple prices basic stuff like ssd upgrades as high as they do, it becomes obvious they are f•••ing us up. Not sure i want to take that pounding anymore.
So, assuming abysmal sales of the higher end studios, maybe Apple finally come to their senses and set sane prices on the mac pro.
With the 4090s out this may have changed, but I believe a 2019 Mac Pro with a pair of W6800X Duos pretty much had the benchmark crown for GPU rendering in Octane. Probably no longer the case, but even with a single W6800X Duo Octane is very fast on the 2019 Mac Pro.
I really really hope Apple and AMD release 7000 series for the 2019 Mac Pro. Although my guess is if the new Mac Pro can't even beat the top tier MPX modules available for the 2019, then it isn't going to happen.
I really really hope Apple and AMD release 7000 series for the 2019 Mac Pro. Although my guess is if the new Mac Pro can't even beat the top tier MPX modules available for the 2019, then it isn't going to happen.
How do you even use octane on macpro2019 these days? Do you have to stay on pr14? With what host dcc?
In the standard configurations? Probably not. If talking about Mac Studio with every kitchen sink BTO option possible thrown at it? That is like predicting the 'sky is blue' tomorrow. That has little to do with standard configuration or entry level product pricing and everything to do with Apple's margin bloating high end BTO options. If trying to let Apple hoover as much money out of your pocket as possible, climb up on every BTO price ladder possible.
Currently a M1 MBA with everything on it.... $1,999 same price as MBP 14" entry model. ( This is a two year old model priced as high as a recently updated M2 generation 'pro' model. )
M2 MBA with everything on it ... $2,499 so $500 higher.
M2 Mini with 'everything' $1,899 only $100 short of a entry Mac Studio ($1,999). (and way past the M2 Pro variant).
M2 Pro Mini with 'everything' $4,449 way, way , way past an entry Mac Studio. ( Way past Mac Pro 2013 entry prices).
The M1 generation Mac Studio with 'everything' is $7,999. It is already $2,000 higher than the Mac Pro entry price. Even if Apple bumped up the entry Mac Pro price to $6,999 , the Studio would still have gapped it by $1K. Two systems both with a "Ultra class" package aren't going to be that far apart.
In general, Apple's 'get everything' BTO pricing has nothing to do with anchoring/setting the entry level prices for the next product on the hierarchy. The max BTO options have sky high markups... so they are expensive. Is Apple going to kept that tactical stance? Extremely likely yes.
It is also pretty likely that Apple is not going to put very high minimal SSD capacity on the next Mac Pro. The current one starts off at 512GB. Apple just kneecapped the new M2 Pro MBP 14/16" with bandwidth drops to save on inventory complexity for those systems ( just one NAND chip. ). Wouldn't do that on the Mac Pro? I really don't see why they would change the 'game' for that system. ( both Studio and Mac Pro will likely start at 512GB. ). That lower starting point just makes it all the more easier for a BTO Studio to 'catch' the Mac Pro entry price.
Sometimes there have been corner case exceptions when product differentiate is relatively small and Apple could get away with it. iMac Pro versus mainstream iMac in 2017. Because the Mac Pro was comatose and probably wanted to highly limit fratricide on the exact same screen, in the exact same size enclosure iMac 27" they started the iMac Pro higher on list price. By the end of the iMac Pro service life though the 2020 iMac with everything was higher though ( max T2 SSD and max RAM from Apple). Pragmatically that was a bit of those lower end iMac Pro replacement at that point (without the second fan ).
For the standard configurations, the 'entry' Ultra for the Studio is $3,999. There is just too large of a gap there with the Mac Pro basic infrastructure charges (presuming they keep the case size the same ). Probably no huge price drop with the Mac Pro. ( Some folks have wished on a Mx Max Mac Pro where supposedly the shift to lower SoC would dramatically drop the price of the Mac Pro. Probably not. On the Studio the gap between entry Max and entry Ultra is $1,400 (and $400 RAM). If knocked back $1,800 still would be short if Apple keeps the MP price at $5,999. At $6,599 would be an even bigger gap. If Studio is 'eating up' some of the old "Mac Pro only" space then the 'low volume tax' on Mac Pro is likely to go up; not down.
P.S. the other major problem there with hand waving at those numbers is that the laptop Max doesn't have anywhere near the PCI-e provisioning ability to get a Mac Pro close to what it should be . two x16 PCI-e v4 clusters. So the different chiplet formulation for a "Desktop" Max package won't cost the same amount of money as the laptop one. That extra I/O need to be a Mac Pro is likely going to get added to the SoC pricing. If Apple is charging $100's for couple more GPU/CPU cores they are likely going to charge $100's more for more high speed I/O also. )
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I don't disagree...it's just weird hearing people be okay with the 2023 Mac Pro possibly being a Mac Studio Super Mega Ultra instead of a...ya know...Mac Pro.