MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

[ZombiePhysicist]

Apple Reportedly Set to Release iMac With M3 Chip This Year

The new iMac will stay with the 24-inch screen size and is expected to be one of the company’s first machines with an M3 chip.

www.pcmag.com

Relevant re M3 discussion.

 

[Boil]

Are you talking about this running off an Ultra chip? It seems not, because that has very few TB (PCIe) lanes spare, none of which are Gen 5. I think we must be talking at cross purposes.

I am talking about an as-yet-unseen Mn Ultra / Mn Extreme SoCs, ones for which we have zero knowledge towards PCIe implementation...

These SoCs could be M2 Max based (of which we know very little in regards to UltraFusion implementation), @Mago indicates there may be two UF connections per M2 Max die, and also indicates the possibility of one of the UFs being used to connect a PCIe bridge chip of some sort...?

I feel Apple could debut the ASi Mac Pro with 3nm-based M3 Ultra / M3 Extreme SoCs, of which those could definitely have a plethora of available PCIe lanes...

It's only high margin when you're selling them to someone else. For Apple, big chips just = high cost.

Apple is selling to someone else, the end-user; and they have quite high markups on their products...

I think the issue is that when working with a new process node, you tend to get more imperfections with transistors. Small chips = more chips per wafer, so even with a bunch of imperfections, you still get a good amount of useable chips. If you go in with the big ones first, most of them could be duds, which is a lot of waste and makes the few working ones very costly. Basically - yield issues.

Was it not reported that TSMC was seeing up to 80% yields for their 3nm process; maybe the first few months or so of 3nm production is the base M3, for the 13" & 15" MacBook Air laptops; with wafers destined for the M3 Ultra / M3 Extreme Mac Pro SoCs following that initial "debugging" phase...?

The same CPU and GPU core designs could be used for all the different chips. I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that would contain some of the costs. You'd likely get greater economies of scale from making large numbers of a few different designs though. Currently, the Mac just uses two - Mn and Mn Max. The Pro being a cut-down Max and the Ultra being 2x Max.

Mn Pro is its own fabrication, it is not a physically cut-down Mn Max; so the Mac line-up would currently use three unique dies, Mn / Mn Pro / Mn Max, with the Mn Max being the building block for the Mn Ultra, and theoretically for the Mn Extreme...

 

[Boil]

Apple Reportedly Set to Release iMac With M3 Chip This Year

The new iMac will stay with the 24-inch screen size and is expected to be one of the company’s first machines with an M3 chip.

www.pcmag.com

Relevant re M3 discussion.

So I can see initial N3B wafers being ear-marked for base M3 SoCs, destined for the 13" & 15" MacBook Air laptops and the 24" iMac; this helps "debug" the process / increase the yields per wafer while keeping "waste" costs to a minimum...?

Apple can also be ordering up small runs of wafers to make M3 Ultra & M3 Extreme SoCs with, chips to fine-tune the larger dies before high-volume production; these would be the SoCs used in the prototype Mac Pros, the ones we could see in a One More Thing teaser at a Mac Event sometime in the next two months, to be followed by a full overview at WWDC; pre-orders July/August, delivery September/October...

The "teaser" would be Johny Srouji rolling out (because wheels...) a 7,1 chassis, running GeekBench 6 & a 3D benchmark simultaneously and posting the chart-topping results publicly, where we see the system reported as using the M3 Ultra SoC...

Then the WWDC overview sees a similar benchmarks run, but reveals the existence of the M3 Extreme SoC and the ASi (GP)GPUs...

Faces melt & heads explode...

"Pre-orders in July, we know you're going to love them...!"

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

So I can see initial N3B wafers being ear-marked for base M3 SoCs, destined for the 13" & 15" MacBook Air laptops and the 24" iMac; this helps "debug" the process / increase the yields per wafer while keeping "waste" costs to a minimum...?

Apple can also be ordering up small runs of wafers to make M3 Ultra & M3 Extreme SoCs with, chips to fine-tune the larger dies before high-volume production; these would be the SoCs used in the prototype Mac Pros, the ones we could see in a One More Thing teaser at a Mac Event sometime in the next two months, to be followed by a full overview at WWDC; pre-orders July/August, delivery September/October...

The "teaser" would be Johny Srouji rolling out (because wheels...) a 7,1 chassis, running GeekBench 6 & a 3D benchmark simultaneously and posting the chart-topping results publicly, where we see the system reported as using the M3 Ultra SoC...

Then the WWDC overview sees a similar benchmarks run, but reveals the existence of the M3 Extreme SoC and the ASi (GP)GPUs...

Faces melt & heads explode...

"Pre-orders in July, we know you're going to love them...!"

Well all the sudden if the release is for WWDC, the jump to M3 makes way more sense, and then, all the sudden, we may have plenty of PCI lanes and the picture starts to change... coming back to that one dangling smiley emoji...

 

[Basic75]

all the sudden

Sorry for going off topic, the English idiom is "all of a sudden". That said, are you expecting more PCIe lanes on the base M3, or just on the larger chips of the M3 generation?

 

[maikerukun]

So.... I just had this crazy thought..... And since this is the WHAT IF thread.... let's get crazy!

What if apple developed their own x86 chip to use in the 8,1 Mac Pro, and all the talk about an M1 Mac Pro was to steer everyone in a different direction?

The chip would still be "Apple Silicon", perhaps a chance to literally beat Intel at their own game.

They re-use the 7,1 case, upgrade the mobo with the the new silicon, upgrade slots to PCIe 4, and then release drivers for the AMD 7k series cards with Ventura 13.3, which is what the 8,1 ships with. Meanwhile, they continue to work behind the scenes and release the AS Mac Pro in ~3-4 years, after they've had ample time to mature it.

Isn't TSMC where AMD gets their Ryzen and Threadripper chips from?

I know the chances of this actually being true are slim-to-none, with a high nod to "none", and I know that 13.3 is already in Beta 2, however, the timeline for 13.3 is extended all the way out to June 20th... so... What if?! 🤪

I LOVE IT! Ps - Just got back in town in LA and catching up on all the emails, client requests, auditions, and forum talks I've missed lolol.

 

[maikerukun]

They are most likely going to reuse the 7,1 case, with modifications. It's really a beautiful machine and as overengineered it seems, I think its one of the best computers I've ever had and I've had like 20+ desktops in my lifetime ranging from old G3 macs to custom PCs. The case is amazing and it never gets loud under full load. I really don't think Apple would spend more money doing R&D on this case, it's already pretty damn good. Now the size of it? Who knows it might be smaller. But to me it's the perfect tower size and the design looks timeless, even if its almost 5 years old.

According to word on the street, this is 100% fact at this point! Let's see what they do with the insides!

 

[Boil]

They are most likely going to reuse the 7,1 case, with modifications.

According to word on the street, this is 100% fact at this point! Let's see what they do with the insides!

Said source said you'll don't have to wait more than 5 weeks for ASi Mac pro, new Mac Pro also comes in new tower design, slimmer and smaller about 4/5 to 3/4 than mp 7,1.

Apple to introduce the new Mac pro this month not later than April 4th.

This could be a scaled-down Cheesegrater 2.0 chassis, or an all-new design; I guess, technically, a scaled-down CG 2.0 would be an al(most)-new design...?

 

[majus]

This could be a scaled-down Cheesegrater 2.0 chassis, or an all-new design; I guess, technically, a scaled-down CG 2.0 would be an al(most)-new design...?

That sounds very reasonable as it would be a lot cheaper to produce than a scaled-down 7,1 case. The only real thing against that idea is it would be a somewhat dated look.

 

[Boil]

That sounds very reasonable as it would be a lot cheaper to produce than a scaled-down 7,1 case. The only real thing against that idea is it would be a somewhat dated look.

The Cheesegrater 2.0 is the 7,1 chassis...

 

[Boil]

This could be a scaled-down Cheesegrater 2.0 chassis, or an all-new design; I guess, technically, a scaled-down CG 2.0 would be an al(most)-new design...?

Said source said you'll don't have to wait more than 5 weeks for ASi Mac pro, new Mac Pro also comes in new tower design, slimmer and smaller about 4/5 to 3/4 than mp 7,1.

Apple to introduce the new Mac pro this month not later than April 4th.

So slimmer makes sense, no need for the DIMM slots, funky blower fan, & NAND blade slots on the backside of the mobo, so that volume is reduced...?

Shorter also makes sense if the system SoC is moved to a daughtercard, I would think something using a MPX-sized heatsink, so maybe two fans up front rather than three...?

I would guess the handles & feet (or optional wheels) will still remain, but I wish they wouldn't; hopefully we will get a Space Gray color option this time around...!

 

[Boil]

WHAT IF...

There are two MPX-style slots, one for the SoC daughtercard & one for the AMD MI200-series derived MPX-style accelerator...

The SoC slot may be a proprietary ultra-high-speed connector of some sort, the accelerator slot might be another of the aforementioned ultra-high-speed connectors; or it might be two in-line Gen5 x16 slots, with the secondary slot also providing extra power to the accelerator card...

Then we might have a Gen5 x16 slot intended for a M.2 NVMe SSD RAID card, a Gen4 x8 slot intended for a 8K video I/O card, and two Gen4 x4 slots intended for audio I/O & DSP cards...?

So a six slot system, just with a couple of "interesting" slots...

 

[prefuse07]

WHAT IF...

There are two MPX-style slots, one for the SoC daughtercard & one for the AMD MI200-series derived MPX-style accelerator...

The SoC slot may be a proprietary ultra-high-speed connector of some sort, the accelerator slot might be another of the aforementioned ultra-high-speed connectors; or it might be two in-line Gen5 x16 slots, with the secondary slot also providing extra power to the accelerator card...

Then we might have a Gen5 x16 slot intended for a M.2 NVMe SSD RAID card, a Gen4 x8 slot intended for a 8K video I/O card, and two Gen4 x4 slots intended for audio I/O & DSP cards...?

So a six slot system, just with a couple of "interesting" slots...

So based on your flip-flopping between threads... is this system supposed to be using M2, M3, or M2+3=M5? 🤣

 

[singhs.apps]

According to word on the street, this is 100% fact at this point! Let's see what they do with the insides!

What other words from the streets ? You seem pretty certain.
Tell us.

 

[Boil]

So based on your flip-flopping between threads... is this system supposed to be using M2, M3, or M2+3=M5? 🤣

The math is just silly, and you know it; new rumors arise & thoughts change...

At least I am not one of the ones clinging to the hope of one more Intel Mac Pro, when we are nearly three years past the announcement of the transition of Apple silicon...

 

[prefuse07]

The math is just silly, and you know it; new rumors arise & thoughts change...

At least I am not one of the ones clinging to the hope of one more Intel Mac Pro, when we are nearly three years past the announcement of the transition of Apple silicon...

Was just messing around, but if you want to get mad, be my guest...

 

[Boil]

Was just messing around, but if you want to get mad, be my guest...

Wasn't mad, maybe a touch perturbed for a minute, but no worries... ;^p

 

[Kimmo]

According to word on the street, this is 100% fact at this point! Let's see what they do with the insides!

What other words from the streets ? You seem pretty certain.
Tell us.

Maybe he can't be too specific, because he's one of those NDA guys!

 

[maikerukun]

If the Mac Pro is on M2 gen skip it. First gen Apple SoC Mac Pro will suck.

M3 or m4 based Mac Pro should the one to get.

I actually very much agree about this. I obviously will still get it and be our community guinea pig LOL but I definitely recommend everyone other than people who truly can burn money without remorse to just skip the damn thing until first gen is out of the way.

Then again...WHAT IF...Apple gets it right the first time around for once lol

 

[maikerukun]

I agree with all of that. But here is a somewhat philosophical and marketing question.

If you introduce a product line that scales from roughly a phone to a tower of power, which way should the introductions move. Now apple so far has started with the phone, and worked up to iPads, and entry level laptops (air), on up the ladder to the studio. Fair way to do it.

But did they go that way because it was their strategy or just because they were in a rush and had to, ie, thats the way the initial set of products came out and no Mac Pro would partake in the M1?

What is fundamentally wrong starting with the mega uber super extreme chip, and showing how it scales downward as a philosophy? I guess you remove the chances for "surprises" of new features as you go up, but I would argue those surprises are still surprises for the high end, and would not be a part of the lower end anyway (eg ECC memory).

I maybe missing something obvious, but I'm trying to do the exercise in my pea brain, and nothing is jumping out at me why it's a fundamentally wrong way to go.

SOME may even argue going from extreme to mobile can make more sense in that if you have some architectural bottlenecks (ie enough PCI lanes for cards etc), you can plan out your mega chip dealing with that, but when you scale that down, you wont be bit it having 'too many' pci lanes available for mobile applications.

Then again, I could see a counter argument that if you start from the mega chip, you could lose sight of your biggest money maker products, the phones, and you want to optimize those before all else.

Interesting question of strategy, but on the whole, considering where they make most of their money, I guess it makes more sense to optimize on the iPhone first.

Here is one more interesting question. While optimizing on the iPhone first makes sense, does it not also make sense that they may break up the lines more and more over time and have a multiple optimized lines that spread out to be more their 'own thing' with time. Sure, it makes senses that the iPhone A series was the seed chip, but does it not make sense to have multiple teams designing and optimizing off that for a Server, Desktop, Laptop, tablet, phone, watch, wearables series of chip, each becoming more and more it's own unique thing. For example, the watch does not really need GPU modules of much punch relative to the rest of the line.

Love this question, and I don't have an answer lol, other than to say that it comes down to what you view the Mac Pro to be as a product in the first place. I for one see it as its own entity that exists outside of the primary ACU "Apple Consumer Universe *TM lol) and is more of a spin-off series than anything. To me, it's a showcase piece. It's like going to the car show and seeing the ridiculously awesome car that eventually becomes the safe play at the dealership...except in this case you can actually purchase it lol.

 

[maikerukun]

Just putting it out there, does anyone else remember that ‘leak’ of a prototype MP with an octagonal enclosure? Think it was early last year. I promise I’m not gonna crazy haha!

I oddly feel like I remember this lol. Mandala effect?

 

[maikerukun]

AMD has already written the drivers. I *believe* apple takes their existing drivers and tidies them up a bit for macOS. Nothing prevents apple from doing that here. It would likely be more work this time with the apple hardware being different, but so what, well within their ability to do so. The first time would be hardest, and whatever bridge scheduling/delegating code they put in to get off apple silicon out to the GPU would thereafter be useable form most if not all future 3rd party cards.

Agreed that AMD are in many ways more limited than Nvidia but at this point beggars cant be too choosy.

Bigger issue is we only have ONE GPU renderer that takes advantage of the AMD GPU's now anyway. I believe I said previously, unfortunately, Octane X will be STRICTLY APPLE SILICON after this current gen...they've already limited Octane X to TWO GPU's and even that is only available if you subscribe. Granted this only applies to the 2023 version of C4D, but regardless...their focus thanks to Apple is now completely on speeding up Apple Silicon.

I don't mind that focus but I just hope this transition happens sooner rather than later in terms of getting up to parity with the speed of the AMD 6000 GPU's. Sadly, I don't even care if they don't match the 7000 series. If they can at least get this damn thing up to what we have right now in the maxed out 7.1's then I'll call that a win.

 

[maikerukun]

I guess I really have been out of the loop -- I hadn't realized the M2 was actually released in June 2022, so releasing the M3 around June 2023 now makes sense.

Apple Orders Entire Supply of TSMC's 3nm Chips for iPhone 15 Pro and M3 Macs

Apple has reportedly secured all available orders for N3, TSMC's first-generation 3-nanometer process that is likely to be used in the upcoming...

www.macrumors.com

^per this, it looks like we should see something by the 2nd half of this year, or early 24'

/Resume WHAT IF(fing)....

My M2 Max MacBook Pro just arrived today...just finished time machining the M1 Max over to it

 

[maikerukun]

What other words from the streets ? You seem pretty certain.
Tell us.

Just all the leakers are finally lining up in their info from their individual sources...including the random asian leakers that are small accounts but usually right.

Could be wrong obviously. Leakers are leakers, but what I've noticed is they usually all have their own paths that tend to lead to the same final conclusion right when it's accurate lol.

 

[maikerukun]

Maybe he can't be too specific, because he's one of those NDA guys!

View attachment 2170100

Nope. Just a regular guy here with my fav Apple community