Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Melbourne Park

macrumors 65816
..

That's what all the other big players try to achieve too. All of them.
Yep, you got it.

And we know they could have storage slots and make high main disk profits - a Mac Pro 7,1 is tied to its primary disk, and if you want to enlarge that primary drive, you have go to the Apple store. So they could do the same and have some spare fast drive slots. Give us something, please ...

On the other hand, the gap to Windows used to be huge in user friendliness. OS X is very complicated now IMO. When something you don't like is going on, its not intuitive how to fix it. But you can ring Apple, and they'll resolve it, typically for free. That's the difference from Windows IMO. Sometimes and for some people and small enterprises, that benefit is worthwhile. In addition, the tie in between Apple devices is easy to achieve and often very useful.

But as you say - at what cost? I agree with you whole heartedly - the rental model stinks. It's the old 1960s and 1970s IBM approach. When Microsoft got total dominance, they then switched to rental for Office. And Adobe followed suit.

For us Mac Pros that were relatively not too costly - such as my 5,1 - surely Apple could have built the very same machine with a modern motherboard, lower the cooling heat sinks for the CPUs, have 3 x 16 wide current PCI slots plus a couple more tight PCI slots, put 5 drive bays into the DVD disk area by lowering the PCI suction fan which sits under that DVD area, and use a spot for some NVME slots, use today's CPUs and off the Xeons as optional, and have sold it for 50% more than a base 16" Macbook Pro. How many of us would have bought one? Most of us didn't need the Saturn 5 to fire our mission - a Shuttle would have done us fine. Heck - even an A380 Airbus.

If these new desktops are not attractive and priced well, there'll be little effort for many Mac users to switch across to Windows. Sure its a shame about FCP etc. Afterall with a PC you can pick and choose what you like, or design it yourself, build it yourself or get someone else to build your design for you, and for middling performance its not going to cost a fortune until you have to buy GPUs, and at least there'll be lots of choice, you'll pay a market price and there won't be surprises and it will be up to date when you buy it. It'll cost less but be big, maybe noisy and certainly less reliable. But we'll be free ...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jinnyman

zozomester

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2017
372
267
Hungary
Yes, I also switched from cMP5.1 to M1 mini. Causes, compatibility issues, constantly working to get the latest Operating System, lack of AVX support ....In addition, the cMP 5.1 consumes a lot of power and generates a lot of heat. And its performance is already less than the Silicon M1.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6453.jpg
    IMG_6453.jpg
    267.2 KB · Views: 119
  • IMG_6605.jpg
    IMG_6605.jpg
    244.8 KB · Views: 123
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jinnyman and mode11

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
Yep, you got it.

And we know they could have storage slots and make high main disk profits - a Mac Pro 7,1 is tied to its primary disk, and if you want to enlarge that primary drive, you have go to the Apple store. So they could do the same and have some spare fast drive slots. Give us something, please ...
Not sure what you mean by this, but I dont use the 256GB drive I got with my Mac Pro, and instead boot/use a 15.36TB NVMe drive as my primary/boot drive.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
I know MacRumors frowns on creating threads for existing stories, but this seemed relevant to the thread (and we were here first!):

It's kind of weird to see all the people mad about another Intel Mac Pro in the thread.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,452
1,172
London
I can't see Apple releasing another Intel MP. Why shift the bar higher for their AS MP to surpass? When Apple release the AS MP, they'll want it to be comprehensively better by every metric.

The main reason for the Intel MP going forward is to run pro software / plugins that haven't been updated to AS yet. The 2019 MP will do fine for this. Releasing another Intel MP may signal to pro software developers like Avid that there's less rush to get their AS Mac versions done.

Leaving the 2019 MP around will mean Apple's pro customers still have an Intel solution, whilst a great new AS MP will have them up in arms for developers to support it.
 

skodises

Contributor
Jan 9, 2021
41
46
It is pretty simple, to my way of thinking. The cMP 5,1 I own and use every day is paid for. Anything with Apple silicon in it isn't. Don't much care if it can eat my lunch- the new hardware doesn't offer anything I need badly enough to ante up for.

It is apples and oranges, of course. I don't need specs: I need to do my work and make a living. And I'm not going lay out many thousands of dollars to upgrade to a new machine if I don't have a compelling business case/technical need to do so. In a few years, maybe I'll pick up one on eBay to fart around with- after someone else takes that massive Apple-early-adopter depreciation hit (been there, done that, many times already). That is, of course, unless I retire first... I suspect that I'll be riding my 5,1 and Catalina into the sunset.

But your mileage may vary.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ZombiePhysicist

TrevorR90

macrumors 6502
Oct 1, 2009
379
299
I can't see Apple releasing another Intel MP. Why shift the bar higher for their AS MP to surpass? When Apple release the AS MP, they'll want it to be comprehensively better by every metric.

The main reason for the Intel MP going forward is to run pro software / plugins that haven't been updated to AS yet. The 2019 MP will do fine for this. Releasing another Intel MP may signal to pro software developers like Avid that there's less rush to get their AS Mac versions done.

Leaving the 2019 MP around will mean Apple's pro customers still have an Intel solution, whilst a great new AS MP will have them up in arms for developers to support it

More than just software. To me there really is one glaring issue with the new AS, AMD/Nvidia GPUs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Flint Ironstag

Melbourne Park

macrumors 65816
Not sure what you mean by this, but I dont use the 256GB drive I got with my Mac Pro, and instead boot/use a 15.36TB NVMe drive as my primary/boot drive.

I was referring to the issue with the main drive, namely that the Apple SSD supplied is locked with the T2 chip to the motherboard. Removing the main drive will produce a status light fault. To replace that main drive you'd have to have it done at the Apple shop. As you'd have been aware, since you bought a 250GB main drive 7,1, Apple charges a premium price for their main drive, and they can do so due I presume to their T2 being married to the original drive.

I don't know this for sure, but I read about someone who bought a used 7,1 and who wanted a larger main drive. I'm not sure why he went that way though, your method sounds more sensible. I don't think the hard drive issue is well documented by Apple, but I also don't know that for sure.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
I was referring to the issue with the main drive, namely that the Apple SSD supplied is locked with the T2 chip to the motherboard. Removing the main drive will produce a status light fault. To replace that main drive you'd have to have it done at the Apple shop. As you'd have been aware, since you bought a 250GB main drive 7,1, Apple charges a premium price for their main drive, and they can do so due I presume to their T2 being married to the original drive.

I don't know this for sure, but I read about someone who bought a used 7,1 and who wanted a larger main drive. I'm not sure why he went that way though, your method sounds more sensible. I don't think the hard drive issue is well documented by Apple, but I also don't know that for sure.

You can upgrade their drive to 8TB. They offer a kit now.

That said, what I did definitely gives you more bang per buck.
 

flowrider

macrumors 604
Nov 23, 2012
7,323
3,003
^^^^I'm running ten SSDs in my NcMP. The Apple supplied SSD has an OS on it, and sits idle. I have six SSDs on two PCIe cards and three SSDs in a Sonnet J3i.

Lou
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZombiePhysicist

Melbourne Park

macrumors 65816
You can upgrade their drive to 8TB. They offer a kit now.

That said, what I did definitely gives you more bang per buck.
Yes. Great.

But I was just making one of several points: in that case, that Apple charges a premium for their boot drive, and the larger, the more disproportionate in value compared to the retail marketplace.

I haven't looked carefully at the pricing for Macbook Pros drives though ... perhaps they'd be an indication of future Mac Pro M pricing? One good thing though - the drives in the Macbook Pros are fast, and they are not even RAID drives. IMO no excuses for a desktop Mac Pro not having good user choice disk upgrade options.
 

sn1p3r845

macrumors regular
Feb 9, 2012
216
108
Vancouver, BC
I know MacRumors frowns on creating threads for existing stories, but this seemed relevant to the thread (and we were here first!):

It's kind of weird to see all the people mad about another Intel Mac Pro in the thread.
I can't wait, I'd gladly shell out money for an Intel version over an Apple Silicon right now. I have the 16" macbook pro m1 max w/ 32gb ram and Rosetta has it's flaws. Until everyone is onboard and stable there's no reason to jump ship yet as a professional.
 

kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
Intel Marketing seems like driving their pistons at full steam lately. Looks like the real thing will be much better than the experimental results from the youtuber above.

Leaked i7-12700H (6P+8E at 45W?):
View attachment 1913932
Full story: https://www.notebookcheck.net/First...-3-and-Apple-M1-Max-in-the-dust.579828.0.html

Apparently this leaked benchmark of a pre-sample i7-12700H was just for the sake of creating hype. However, PC World's test on a production i9-12900HK is still very competitive:

Cinebench R23 1T: 1,892
Cinebench R23 nT: 15,000
Geekbench 5 1T: 1899
Geekbench 5 nT: 13,375

Source: https://www.pcworld.com/article/605149/intel-12th-gen-core-i9-12900k-performance-preview.html

The experiment predicts mobile Alder Lake will score higher in Cinebench R23 than M1 Max.

Alder Lake (35W core power; 43W Package power): 14288 (Cinebench R23 MT)
M1 Max (34W package power per Anandtech): 12326

Btw, the experimental result of a hyperthetical 12900HK by the youtuber was damn close prediction.

PC World doesn't publish at what CPU package power to achieve those scores. Hopefully it's not far above 45W.
 

jscipione

macrumors 6502
Mar 27, 2017
429
243
Apparently this leaked benchmark of a pre-sample i7-12700H was just for the sake of creating hype. However, PC World's test on a production i9-12900HK is still very competitive:

And yet W3300 series Ice Lake Xeons Intel "released" last June are still not shipping in volume to OEMs including Apple, Dell, Lenovo, and HP. What good are faster Intel processors if you can't actually buy systems that utilize them?



 

kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
And yet W3300 series Ice Lake Xeons Intel "released" last June are still not shipping in volume to OEMs including Apple, Dell, Lenovo, and HP. What good are faster Intel processors if you can't actually buy systems that utilize them?

Indeed puzzling phenomenon. It's available e.g. from BOXX on the other hand. So seems W3300 in production but not in huge quantity. Whether that's due to low demand or supply side issue, no idea.

In the other breaking news, rumor is saying Sapphire Rapids will be delayed for another quarter. And AMD is going to raise server chip prices by 10-30%.

2022 is going to be a very interesting year. AMD and Intel will face off on new desktop chips, and we'll see how Apple chips do in workstations.
 

jscipione

macrumors 6502
Mar 27, 2017
429
243
Indeed puzzling phenomenon. It's available e.g. from BOXX on the other hand. So seems W3300 in production but not in huge quantity. Whether that's due to low demand or supply side issue, no idea.
Boxx [0] and Puget Systems [1] offer W3300 series Xeon systems so the processors do actually exist, yet the lack of availability from bigger OEMs seems to indicate a volume availability problem, and it seems to be part of the worldwide chip shortages. I've been tracking W3300 availability for a while now and I'm still hopeful for one more Intel Mac Pro release whenever Intel manages to get their act together and ship the W3300 series in volume. There is also a lack of benchmarking for these chips [2] which leads me to believe that they aren't too common. If Intel waits too long to start shipping W3300 series the Apple Silicon Mac Pro will surely take its place as the next Mac Pro.

What you're saying about the i9-12900HK may be right but it is irrelevant to the Mac Pro which uses the Xeon W line. The possibility of another Intel iMac ship has already sailed IMHO.

[0] https://www.boxx.com/guru/apexx-w4l-3
[1] https://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/xeon/C621E-E/customize/
[2] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
 
Last edited:

kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
If Intel waits too long to start shipping W3300 series the Apple Silicon Mac Pro will surely take its place as the next Mac Pro.

What you're saying about the i9-12900HK may be right but it is irrelevant to the Mac Pro which uses the Xeon W line. The possibility of another Intel iMac ship has already sailed IMHO.

I have doubt in Apple that they'll wholeheartedly promote 2019 Mac Pro refresh regardless of when they've planned to release it. Intel Mac Pro refresh is more a product of continuity and buying time for them to develop Apple silicon Mac Pro ecosystem into a more mature state. Nevertheless, as someone said above (and I always thought the likelihood is very high), it's not bad to see x86-64 macOS hanging on for a much longer while than initially anticipated.

Sapphire Rapids the next Xeon will be based on Golden Cove, PCIe 5 and DDR5. All these new features can be previewed on Alder Lake. One of the reasons Alder Lake is interesting to look at for many people. The surprise for me personally is Alder Lake's efficiency. The high performance cores perhaps have been in baking for a long while for Intel. Slapping a few lower performance/efficiency cores appears like a knee-jerk reaction to AMD/Apple. The end result seems not bad though we haven't seen actual power consumption of mobile Alder Lake yet.

I don't believe we'll see any new Intel Mac's other than the 2019 Mac Pro refresh. The keen competition between AMD and Intel does have some sort of pressure on Apple IMO. Apple Silicon is great in terms of perf per watt but Alder Lake shows it's actually not that difficult to achieve with quick and dirty tricks. And what if AMD and Intel get more serious about perf per watt in the coming years because that's huge impact (and perhaps only one at the moment) Apple Silicon has created in the industry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boil

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Boxx [0] and Puget Systems [1] offer W3300 series Xeon systems so the processors do actually exist, yet the lack of availability from bigger OEMs seems to indicate a volume availability problem, and it seems to be part of the worldwide chip shortages.

Part of the problem is also the W-3300 series. It comes with significantly bigger TDP headaches and a relatively narrow performance wins. If can get traction with the AVX-512 , new AI/ML instructions , high end I/O bandwidth (PCI-e v4), and/or highly optimized computational kernels then there is upside.

The issue is whether that is really a "high volume" market. It is probably high enough volume for Boxx and Puget Systems (and other HPC and specialized vendors). It may not be high enough volume for Dell , HP , and Lenovo to do their own logic board ( or contract out highly customized boards to be built for them. ).

The W-3300 doesn't have very broad performance uplift profile. For some high profile Mac Pro use cases it can have traction. [ Apple also isn't selling into the broad workstation market. ]


I've been tracking W3300 availability for a while now and I'm still hopeful for one more Intel Mac Pro release whenever Intel manages to get their act together and ship the W3300 series in volume.

There may be some "chicken and egg" factors in play here. The demand for the W-3300 is probably less than the demand for the Xeon SP Gen 3 variants. So intel allocates that way. ( same thing going on at AMD is the Threadripper being held back). It isn't that it isn't shipping in volume, but the same die goes into multiple product lines.


There is also a lack of benchmarking for these chips [2] which leads me to believe that they aren't too common.

there are specific content creation benchmarks at Puget.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/xeon/


The W-3300 is the same die as the Xeon SP Gen 3 run at different clock speeds. If want a "baseline guesstimate" out of those passmark just go to the the Gold/Platinum and normalize on core count. But can kind of see the point when look at the relatively 'old' Threadripper marks at the top of that chart.


If Intel waits too long to start shipping W3300 series the Apple Silicon Mac Pro will surely take its place as the next Mac Pro.

Why does Apple need super high volume? There are already reports from folks who have a MBP 16" M1 Max who have shifted substantive work over to that from an older Mac Pro. A M1 Max inside of the current Mini chassis probably would draw even more migration.

More likely Apple "needs" a W-3300 Mac Pro because the M-series power supposed substitute probably is not a substitute for problems that require high modularity and high I/O.

Even when the Mac Pro was the clear high end offering Apple still only had a sub 3% share of the workstation market. The pitch here that Apple was super ginormous relative to Boxx and Puget is likely a stretch. The "Others" category that Intel is currently selling into is the same "Others" category that Apple is in. If Apple shrinks that even more ( selling M1 Max mini and iMac and low modularity 'Mac Pro' with M1 Max Duo ) where is the huge volume demand rush going to come from.

At almost 1.5 years into a pre-announced 2 year transition is there really going to be a giant stampede onto a W-3300 model ? Probably not. A shift to a W-3300 would far more be to support whatever the Mac Pro 2019 run rate had shrunk in the last 6 months rather than some sort of "high volume" play.



What you're saying about the i9-12900HK may be right but it is irrelevant to the Mac Pro which uses the Xeon W line. The possibility of another Intel iMac ship has already sailed IMHO.

Not really irrelevant. First, it is certainly not irrelevant to the entry-mid range workstation market. if go back to the purposed 'worrisome' context.

in volume to OEMs including Apple, Dell, Lenovo, and HP.

Dell, Lenovo, and HP comprise well over 50% of the market. Apple just a contributor in the "Other" category ( not a top 5 vendor in terms of units sold. ).

If those vendors are focused on upgrading their Gen 12 boards for the mid-range then they may not be asking for W-3300 either. The W-2000 series (and old Xeon E ) are the Gen 12 dies put into "ECC" mode. Between just 'plain' core i and Xeon W-2000 that is the mid-range offerings. Those are the bulk sellers for Dell and HP. Probably even more so if there is a substantive bump for Intel's top end Gen 12 die. Furthermore , I think Dell skipped W-3200. Their 5000 series stuck with "core i" and the 7000 series is geared toward dual Xeon SP (and even still are 'stuck' on Xeon SP gen 2: x2xx ) .

At the top end of HP , Dell, Lenovo line ups is dual Xeon SP workstations. It is starting to be a catch-22 with the delay in rolling out W-3300 for these vendors at the top end. If Intel ships the Xeon SP Gen 4 ( Sapphire Rapids : x4xx ) processors in 2H22 then the 'shelf life' of many W-3300 models would be relatively limited on high core count workloads.


The W-3300 is being squeezed from both sides in Intel's lineup and rollout. For Apple it makes more sense because it is the "end of the line" for Apple. What Apple needs is a low cost update to the Mac Pro ( minimized logic board and socket changes ). There are huge incentives for Intel to 'retire' Xeon SP Gen 3 quicker than they usually do ( now looks to be Q3-Q4 2022 for Gen 4). That is going to put some pressure on Dell, HP, and Lenevo to perhaps consider skipping that iteration. ( Even more so if AMD uncorks the Threadripper update. That is only being held back to make more money on Epyc. )

Dell , HP, and Lenovo are probably itching to unleash a Threadripper workstation update far more so than a W-3300 one. The farther get into 2022 the lower the interest is likely to be from those vendors in W-3300. ( Like desktop Gen 11 ( Rocket Lake).... the W-3300 is huge 'stop gap' product that Intel is using to 'kill time' more so than to compete. )
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I have doubt in Apple that they'll wholeheartedly promote 2019 Mac Pro refresh regardless of when they've planned to release it. Intel Mac Pro refresh is more a product of continuity and buying time for them to develop Apple silicon Mac Pro ecosystem into a more mature state. Nevertheless, as someone said above (and I always thought the likelihood is very high), it's not bad to see x86-64 macOS hanging on for a much longer while than initially anticipated.

the Apple silicon Mac Pro ecosystem primarily would only need time to mature if it was radically new as opposed to just reusing the current one. There is an ecosystem of card for the current Mac Pro that if you just gave them drivers they could very probably work. Only need tons of new time if going to "blow up and nuke" the old ecosystem and start over almost from scratch.

Not much of an ecosystem either if limited to one, and only one , GPU vendor. That isn't time to mature an ecosystem. That is more like time to herd folks into a single solution . Similar with soldering down the RAM. That's a smaller ecosystem.

If Apple runs a scaled down , Apple silicon Mac Pro in parallel production with a "Mac Pro refresh" while having replaced the either rest of the line up with M-series than that probably doesn't extend as far as folks think. Some of the intial estimates that macOS on Intel was "dead" in 4 years were skewed too far to an early kill. A lone , hobby product ( at very low volume) to placate long term business buyers probably isn't going to push macOS on Intel much further than Apple's Vintage/Obsolete window either. It may be around past 7 or so years but pretty likely it would be in comatose mode. ( or just on extended security patches .... which is also a mostly comatose mode.)









Sapphire Rapids the next Xeon will be based on Golden Cove, PCIe 5 and DDR5. All these new features can be previewed on Alder Lake. One of the reasons Alder Lake is interesting to look at for many people. The surprise for me personally is Alder Lake's efficiency. The high performance cores perhaps have been in baking for a long while for Intel. Slapping a few lower performance/efficiency cores appears like a knee-jerk reaction to AMD/Apple. The end result seems not bad though we haven't seen actual power consumption of mobile Alder Lake yet.

The E cores in Alder lake are not primarily a reaction. It is a primarily a workaround for Intel's own internal problems. Those are primarily smaller cores more so than lowest power cores. The P cores in Alder Lake are primarily the server cores brought down to the "desktop" level. ( In part, because Intel went off on a tangent backporting Gen11 cores to 14nm for Rocket Lake. That took resources ).

Intel can't do 10-16 P cores and have a cost competitive desktop product because of die size blow out (in addition some thermal blow out also. ). To be competitive in the multiple thread performance space they need the 'E' cores. It just allows them to bring more ALU function units to the battle at a reasonable enough frequency to put up good numbers.

The root problem there is not so much Apple/AMD as much as TSMC having production at lower implementation sizes. Intel needs to implement about as much "stuff" as the other guys but the "stuff" is bigger. So they have a die bloat problem.

Similar with Xeon Sp Gen 4 ( Sapphire Rapids) going to tiles. That isn't really a "response" . That was mostly announced years ago. Yields on mid-size dies are better than max reticle dies.
The Gen 4 + HBM combo will have pretty good traction in some HPC and low latency inference but where more cores scales to better results it won't be as competitive as the contemporaries ( AMD Milan , next gen ARM server cores. )


I don't believe we'll see any new Intel Mac's other than the 2019 Mac Pro refresh.

All out there by its relative very volume lonesome is going to be hard to keep macOS on Intel moving forward. When the iMac 27" Intel and Mini Intel's fall off the Vintage/Obsolete cliff in 6-7 years the momentum is going to die for macOS Intel. The fact that the Intel Mac Pros sold in post 2022 had double/triple the selling price isn't going to mean much.
 

kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
If Apple runs a scaled down , Apple silicon Mac Pro in parallel production with a "Mac Pro refresh" while having replaced the either rest of the line up with M-series than that probably doesn't extend as far as folks think. Some of the intial estimates that macOS on Intel was "dead" in 4 years were skewed too far to an early kill. A lone , hobby product ( at very low volume) to placate long term business buyers probably isn't going to push macOS on Intel much further than Apple's Vintage/Obsolete window either. It may be around past 7 or so years but pretty likely it would be in comatose mode. ( or just on extended security patches .... which is also a mostly comatose mode.)

Let's do some extrapolation. 2019 Mac Pro Refresh will be released this year. Assume it'll be on sale for three years. A fair estimate IMO. By then both Apple and more than half of the market agree Apple silicon Mac Pro can move forward alone. The year is 2015. Assume Apple will be aggressive in phasing out x86-64 macOS after that and put the number three years after 2019 Mac Pro Refresh last on sale. The year is 2028. That's also about 7 years other Intel Mac's potentially last on sale. Giving it some leeway, x86-64 macOS could well last until the dawn of 2030.

Seems to me people based their guesstimate on PowerPC transition will be proven so wrong this time around. People planning to hold their investment in Apple silicon Mac Pro for 10 years+ will have ample time to watch and decide when to get onboard. In the not so rare likelihood, by the time around the end of this decade, maybe Apple re-thinks its strategy. Mac Pro is better to stay on x86-64. lol
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Let's do some extrapolation. 2019 Mac Pro Refresh will be released this year. Assume it'll be on sale for three years. A fair estimate IMO.

If W-3300 is slow starter because of low demand problems then probably not a fair estimate. Because it is a product gap filler it probably is not going to have the usual Xeon W product life cycle. This thing isn't on "Superfin 10nm" that Gen 11 mobile (tiger lake ) was/is on. This on he revised. "plain 10nm" that didn't work so well for Gen 10 (Tiger Lake) which Intel has almost basically dropped on the client side.

In part, Apple painted themselves into a corner on the phase out of the iMac Pro because the W-2100 series they were using got dropped by Intel. It is probably not going to take Intel 3 years to phase this out if there is only tepid demand. ( the server Xeon SP Gen 3 may limp along a bit longer at lower volumes for replacement parts. )

In 2.5 years, the W-3300 isn't going to be upper half workstation market competitive. Just modestly behind on creative apps now to the TR3 and some of the higher desktop offering. Zen 3 Threadripper, Zen 4 upper desktop , and Xeon SP/ W-3400 ( Sapphire rapids ) and it will be substantively behind by end of 2022 and early 2023. Let alone 2025. A Zen5 or 6 threadripper or Lunar Lake or. Gen 5 Xeon SP die versus the W-3300 ... the notion that will be competitive at all ,even with someone with macOS blinders on , is a huge stretch. Let alone Apple's. M4 variants on the macOS side.


The "refresh" here would be just so that not embarrassingly grossly behind in performance. The 3 years for 2019 version plus roughly 3 years for a "should have been 2021" refresh probably give a range life of. 6 years for the Mac Pro they brought back to life. That is about as long as they went with the MP 2013.


If there is decent demand for the W-3300 out there and Intel is EUV supply constrained ( Intel 4) then the W-3300 might go past 3 year window on product life cycle. I wouldn't bet on that though. Intel 7 (what Alder Lake and Sapphire Rapids) are on using mostly the same fabrication machines as the old "plain 10nm". For a fixed set of fab machines which one do they want to allocate the bulk of the capacity to. The 'half broke' process node or the substantively fixed process node ?

Xeon SP Gen 3 (ice lake) was suppose to be 2H20. ... and slid all the way into 2021. W-3300 probably was "suppose to be". mid-spring-2021 and still not getting full ramp allocation. Intel isn't going to slide the lifecycle window forward. The 'burnt' time is just as likely to come off the end of the service lifetime. They'll stop where originally thought would scale down.


By then both Apple and more than half of the market agree Apple silicon Mac Pro can move forward alone.

By then? Apple went to over 50% of unit sales on M-series last year. The MBP 14" and MBP 16" just threw further gas on the fire. Probably up in the 85+% range. Pragmatically, we are already in the phase where the installed Intel Mac user base has peaked. ( more old Intel macs going into effective retirement than being replaced by new ones). The ceremonial capper will be the throttling of the remaining Intel Mini and the iMac 27". But at that point it is basically done. Unit sales wise the Mac Pro is round off like percentages. There is about zero chance that new Mac Pro sales are making up the ground being lost by old Intel Macs being retired. At point the Intel user base would be shrinking at a steady pace.


The year is 2015. Assume Apple will be aggressive in phasing out x86-64 macOS after that and put the number three years after 2019 Mac Pro Refresh last on sale.

year 2025 probably.... And no the "count down" clock on macOS on Intel has probably already started on the basic core infrastructure level.

2022 + 7 is about 2029. That would be optimistic window. Add 3 years of shrinking security upgrades and Apple could goose the 2022 Mac Pro into 2032. (similar to how they stretched the Mac Pro 2012 to "kick the can down the road". )

Apple has put OpenGL/OpenCL/kext all on deprecated status on both macOS on M-series and Intel. That likely will bend the curve on Intel drop offs when those finally kick over to "gone" status than it will for the M-series Macs. Once folks have to rewrite drivers for a now substantively shrinking user base , that work probably is not ever going to get done.

Apple excluding 3rd party GPU drivers from macOS on M-series is also a bad long term sign. If that is the new permanent dogma over the long term there will be a bigger bend on the curve down on Intel user base on top of the deprecation -> removed status transitions.

The faster the Intel user base shrinks the more likely that. "+7" will turn into a "+ 6". That will depend as much on user purchases as anything that Apple unilaterally does.


The year is 2028. That's also about 7 years other Intel Mac's potentially last on sale. Giving it some leeway, x86-64 macOS could well last until the dawn of 2030.

2030 In security maintenance mode? Yes. In full features macOS updates? Probably not.



Seems to me people based their guesstimate on PowerPC transition will be proven so wrong this time around. People planning to hold their investment in Apple silicon Mac Pro for 10 years+ will have ample time to watch and decide when to get onboard.

Apple doesn't promise people 10 years. The only way the Mac Pro gets to comfortable 10 year coverage from Apple is if Apple goes into "Rip van Winkle" mode on new updates for 4-6 years. A "last gasp" Mac Pro probably isn't going to have that kind of comatose mode. Maybe if the overall workstation market was in slow motion upgrade mode, but it isn't right now nor for the next 3+ years.

Apple isn't gaging their main efforts to folks looking for 10 years.

Unwinding two years of leases over time into the refurb/used market means Apple could left go of new Mac Pro in about 2 years time and probably still keep the shrunken hold out user base happy enough with replacements and modest unit additions to small clusters of remaining users.

Even more so if Apple releases two things called "Mac Pro". Even if the M-series powered on isn't a replacement. Priced $2K lower and high overlap in performance zones and the units of the Intel ones sold to the "hold outs" will be substantively smaller. Some "< 1%" product isn't going to extend macOS on Intel. It is the installed base inertia that is different from 2005-6 (and PowerPC ) transition. There are far more Intel Macs now. However, how fast the users "fade" them away isn't really a settled issue yet.



In the not so rare likelihood, by the time around the end of this decade, maybe Apple re-thinks its strategy. Mac Pro is better to stay on x86-64. lol

Given Apple is at higher PC sales rate than the Windows market last year .... you'd probably have better luck buying a Powerball lottery ticket than Apple doing any long term updates to the Mac Pro with an x86_64. The move is making Apple more money. They are extremely unlikely to walk away from that. More likely Apple would just cut off a high slot count Mac Pro from the product line and take higher revenues over the long term.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Boil
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.