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TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
Evangelion said:
No, what I do have is this thing callewd common sense. Apple would still be earning healthy profit on the MP even if they had upped the specs by a tiny amount. Hell, they might be earning more money, since the machine would be VERY good value for the money!

Well you never know. Maybe nVidia wants to get rid of those 7300 cards and are giving them to apple en masse for a very good price.

Common sense to apple is a quiet running default system. A 7600 would probably need more cooling and make the default system noisier. They make a noisier system an option rather than being like dell and forcing it on you.
 

Evangelion

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2005
3,376
184
quruli said:
Which spec wise would be equivelent to a headless iMac.

iMac uses a mobile processor at around 2Ghz. the MacPro Mini (MPM) would use 2.33 - 3.00Ghz Conroe. iMac uses non-upgradable, underclocked vid-card. MPM would use a faster vid-card that was upgradable. iMac has no expansion-slots. MPM would offer 2-3 PCI-e-slot. iMac has... what, 2 memory-slots? MPM would have 4. MPM would have an user-replacable optical-drive. Not so on the iMac.

Equivalent to a headless iMac? NOT!
 

Evangelion

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2005
3,376
184
furious said:
if you reduced your margins by 10% you have to sell 10% more to make the same money.:p

so use that logic Mr common sense

So why not sell that 10% more? If the product is good enough, it will sell very very well.
 

Trekkie

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2002
920
29
Wake Forest, NC
furious said:
if you reduced your margins by 10% you have to sell 10% more to make the same money.:p

so use that logic Mr common sense

Speaking as someone who as a profession part of the job is to set pricing on a computer product..(not apple)

Doing the first doesn't guarantee the second. Also, why give away money when your other products with similar pricing structure are doing well? Sure you can always do 'better' but if you're making a solid profit with solid run rates you don't want to monkey too much with the price if you don't have a direct competitor for the box.

For the big customers you can always negotiate a price, but if people come into your stores and walk out with a computer on a regular basis and come back for another one on a regular basis you don't just drop the price to get some whiney person who really doesn't want your product in the first place or isn't your target market.

Here's a shocker for you. There are people in this world that find an objection so they can have an excuse not to buy your product. You can do everything in your power to fix that objection, and then they'll find another one. And another one, and another one, and somtimes it'll really make your day when you fix that one and then they object to something you fixed because of an objection they had.

In otherwords, they are big circle jerkers that hate you, will not buy you, and instead of saying so they delight in making you run around trying to appease them and the get a power trip off of that.

I'm not saying all of the 'cheap headless whiners' are like this. I agree you have some validity. I have had an iMac G5 since they announced two years ago and would really have liked to been able to add a few more firewire ports in the form of some I/O expansion, and I'd liked to have kept the 20" screen when I placed my order for the Mac Pro the other day.

but I'm more of a power user than a huge portion of the iMac target market for the iMac. The iMac is succeeding where it is targeted at and that's the home user who buys a computer once in 5 years, if that. If you want an interesting experiment you should shut your mouth off and hang out in a Best Buy computer section some time. It's a facinating thing to watch. For 98% of the people coming in to buy a computer they buy everything meaning Computer, Monitor and Printer. Those packages best buy put together are what people come in and get 90% of the time it seems like at least in the Raleigh-Durham area here in North Carolina.

If you come in looking for things like 'hey, does this have a PCI-E slot video card or is it down on the planar'? they look at you like you just grew a third arm and try to make you use a computer there to look on their website.

I guess what I'm saying is all the yelling at people here in this forum isn't going to get you what you want. Buy your home built parts and move on, it's just not going to happen at this time.

Could Apple change their mind? Absolutely, and their marketing will shift when they change their mind. What changes their mind? Strong profit platforms to allow them to expand.

When I started with my company that I am with now we had four products lines. Low, Med, Med-Hi, and Hi configurations. Now we have fourteen platforms that segment the market much finer. We've seen some growth and recovery in our market space similar to what Apple is trying to do with their end user platforms.

The Mini was a great start, and I'm hoping that we'll see a iMac Pro one day that will give you what you're asking for, an expandable single socket system.

I'm speaking from my personal experience here, not as a company bigwig either. Just some observations on what works and how taking it slow can be a challenge for a while but pays dividends if you maintain it and build the momentum. For a while it hurts more than helps to have someone say 'which one should I get' vs. them 'knowing' that this one is for them.
 

TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
Trekkie said:
Here's a shocker for you. There are people in this world that find an objection so they can have an excuse not to buy your product. You can do everything in your power to fix that objection, and then they'll find another one. And another one, and another one, and somtimes it'll really make your day when you fix that one and then they object to something you fixed because of an objection they had.

In otherwords, they are big circle jerkers that hate you, will not buy you, and instead of saying so they delight in making you run around trying to appease them and the get a power trip off of that.

Well spoken! (The whole post i mean, not just the quote above but i liked the quote above)

Although i am a headless iMac whiner. Mainly because i want to get away from having a massive tower system (that's why i sold my PC) and get a smaller less powerful system which doesn't have a screen built in (because i have a nice Dell 20"). The Mac Mini is just too slow for me. I know i can upgrade the CPU myself and I don't need brilliant graphics but the geek part of me won't ever be happy with just the GMA.

I'd love a double height mini. Same form factor just twice the height. Capable of taking one 3 1/2" hard drive and have the graphics card in a removable MXM slot.

The only option for me at the moment however is get the Mac Pro, even though i don't want another tower, or get a 17" iMac, but i can't BTO that to be as good as the 20" and there's no point in having two 20" screens no matter how geek lovely it would be.
 

TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
TBi said:
I'd love a double height mini. Same form factor just twice the height. Capable of taking one 3 1/2" hard drive and have the graphics card in a removable MXM slot.

Although reading from that site i linked to above i can see why apple might not want to go the MXM route. The laptop manufacturers are trying to hold it back because an open MXM market means less laptop sales.
 

Trekkie

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2002
920
29
Wake Forest, NC
Don't get me wrong though, I think there is plenty of room for a more powerful computer than the mini, but less powerful than the mac pro. I just think that Apple's not ready to open up a new segment just at this time.

That's gotta change though, because the gap between the two you could drive a mac truck through. But I think the video card thing that people complain about will be one of the last things they worry about. I'd hate to see them use intel's integrated video because i've not been impressed with it. Though it appears intel might be building some more robust solutions and releasing a lot more open device drivers so that could change.

But looking back at when I still used a desktop non Mac OS X machine the most common piece of it I changed out was the video card.
 

TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
I'd live with the power of the iMac 20" in a smaller case without a screen. I don't particularly need an upgradable graphics card. I just want a better one than the mini without a built in screen.

Job's could finally introduce a Mac Cube that would sell well!
 

Evangelion

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2005
3,376
184
Trekkie said:
That's gotta change though, because the gap between the two you could drive a mac truck through. But I think the video card thing that people complain about will be one of the last things they worry about.

IMO, the reason people complain about the video is because there is no "low-end" expandable system from Apple. If you want an expandable system, you need to shell out over 2000 bucks. Many people feel that for that much money, they better receive a top-notch product. And while MacPro IS very good for it's primary-market, it falls short on others.

Fact is that many people would like to run Windows on their Macs. If not for anything else, for the games. Right now, those people have to buy a tower-PC for their Windows-gaming, because Apple does not offer a suitable alternative. Not everyone wants an all-in-one. If Apple offered an "inexpensive" minitower on pizzabox, those people could buy a Mac and be done with it, instead of buying a Mac and a PC.

And if you are worried that such a system would kill the sales of Mac Pro... Well, does it matter to Apple if they earn X million dollars selling Mac Pro's, or X million dollars selling Mac Pro Mini's? Besides, the two products could have substantial differences between them. From the top of my head:

One FW400 instead of two
One FW800 instead of two
One optical drive instead of two
two HD-slots instead of four
2 PCI-E slots instead of four
One CPU-socket, instead of two

Price that at around $1399 - $1999, equip it with Conroe and decent vid-card (with BTO-options), and you are all set. Pro's would still prefer Mac Pro, while tons of others would prefer the elegance of the iMac. But there is a huge number of people who are currently buying PC's because Apple simply does not offer a suitable product for them. Offering a machine like that would easily turn them in to Apple-customer, instead of Dell-customers.

Like I said before: Most desktop-computers sold today are minitowers. They are by far the most popular form-factor available. Apple does not offer such a system. The closest thing they offer is the Mac Pro, which costs way too much for regural folks.
 

aswitcher

macrumors 603
Oct 8, 2003
5,338
14
Canberra OZ
Evangelion said:
From the top of my head:

One FW400 instead of two
One FW800 instead of two
One optical drive instead of two
two HD-slots instead of four
2 PCI-E slots instead of four
One CPU-socket, instead of two

Price that at around $1399 - $1999, equip it with Conroe and decent vid-card (with BTO-options), and you are all set.

Pizza format, as you say.
IR port and remote near disc drive ala Mac Mini.
BT/Wifi standard.
Optical audioin/out.
4 slots for ram.
Dual ethernet (one for adsl, one for home network and high speed HD video or other Mac.
Cheapish Applecare
Stackable form factor (where dual ethernet would be nice.)
 

TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
aswitcher said:
Pizza format, as you say.
Personally i'd much prefer a cube. The pizza box format is downright ugly. Also apple will have to make it really strong to support the weight of a monitor on top. I'd say we are more likely to get a taller mini (cube) or a small tower than a pizza box.
 

aswitcher

macrumors 603
Oct 8, 2003
5,338
14
Canberra OZ
TBi said:
Personally i'd much prefer a cube. The pizza box format is downright ugly. Also apple will have to make it really strong to support the weight of a monitor on top. I'd say we are more likely to get a taller mini (cube) or a small tower than a pizza box.

Cube wont fit where my dvd player is now. Thats the key. I figure they can put some internal supports to make sure ot can support a 23" monitor.
 

Multimedia

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2001
5,212
0
Santa Cruz CA, Silicon Beach
Storm - What Do You Mean "Just Follow The Instructions For A Mac Clone?"

stormj said:
If people are so interested in a mid-range mac, just follow the instructions for a mac-clone:D You can put one of those together for as little as a few hundred and use whatever video card you can get running. I'm not sure if you have to reimage your HD every time they upgrade Mac OS, but careful partitioning can make that a smaller hassle, I suppose.
What? How? Where? Link? :confused: :eek:
 

Evangelion

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2005
3,376
184
TBi said:
Personally i'd much prefer a cube. The pizza box format is downright ugly.

Not necessarily. Hush Technologies (for example) makes very nice passively-cooled pizzabox-machines (Google it). Silverstone (google it) also makes very nice pizzabox-cases. Pizzabox does NOT have to be ugly.

And most importantly: Pizzabox is _functional_. It takes advantage of the space underneath your monitor that currently is oly used by the monitor. So it doesn't take that much more desktop real-estate. Only place where you could fit a cubical computer is on the desktop itself, where it would consume desk-space.

Also apple will have to make it really strong to support the weight of a monitor on top.

Hardly an issue at all, and you know it. People have been using pizzaboxes with huge CRT-monitors, what makes you think that using them with petite TFT-displays would cause any problems at all?
 

Evangelion

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2005
3,376
184
furious said:
but you are still loosing 10% profit:p

If you sell more, not necessarily. SGI sells some VERY expensive workstations, yet they have ZERO profits. Dell sells very cheap machines, and they are profitable.
 

furious

macrumors 65816
Aug 7, 2006
1,044
60
Australia
Evangelion said:
If you sell more, not necessarily. SGI sells some VERY expensive workstations, yet they have ZERO profits. Dell sells very cheap machines, and they are profitable.
what's the view down there like :p
 

TBi

macrumors 68030
Jul 26, 2005
2,583
6
Ireland
aswitcher said:
Cube wont fit where my dvd player is now. Thats the key. I figure they can put some internal supports to make sure ot can support a 23" monitor.
I'm looking for a replacement for my computer. Not for a HTPC.

Evangelion said:
Not necessarily. Hush Technologies (for example) makes very nice passively-cooled pizzabox-machines (Google it). Silverstone (google it) also makes very nice pizzabox-cases. Pizzabox does NOT have to be ugly.
I think all of them are ugly, flat and ugly.
Evangelion said:
And most importantly: Pizzabox is _functional_. It takes advantage of the space underneath your monitor that currently is oly used by the monitor. So it doesn't take that much more desktop real-estate. Only place where you could fit a cubical computer is on the desktop itself, where it would consume desk-space.
I use the space under my dell 20" very well. I have speakers and the speaker controller under there. Plus my monitor is height adjustable and I don't want an annoying pizza box under there rising it up any more than it needs to be. Also I put my computer behind my monitor these days and a nice tower like mini would fit just fine. Lastly i like to keep my computer as far away from me as possible and a pizza box would take up way more room than i'd want it to.
Evangelion said:
Hardly an issue at all, and you know it. People have been using pizzaboxes with huge CRT-monitors, what makes you think that using them with petite TFT-displays would cause any problems at all?
The way the mini is designed it won't take a monitor comfortably on it's top. So yes apple will have to take into consideration the weight of the monitor.
 

furious

macrumors 65816
Aug 7, 2006
1,044
60
Australia
Evangelion said:
I have no idea what you are talking about
no matter how many you sell you will always be loosing 10% profit :p and you said " not necessarily" which would mean you are on a other planet:D

to reiterate: to paraphrase yourself, taking a price cut to sell more would be a wise thing for apple to do.

i said a 10% cut in profits in impossible to make up by selling more units
 

Trekkie

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2002
920
29
Wake Forest, NC
furious said:
i said a 10% cut in profits in impossible to make up by selling more units

It's not impossible, just not the best business case because if your market isn't willing to grow for cost of an item you'll just have a 10% cut in profits and no increase in volume.
 

furious

macrumors 65816
Aug 7, 2006
1,044
60
Australia
Trekkie said:
It's not impossible, just not the best business case because if your market isn't willing to grow for cost of an item you'll just have a 10% cut in profits and no increase in volume.


i sell oranges right?

i sell them for 1$

i am sell 10

making 10$

i decide that if i reduce my price to 90c i will sell more

next day i sell 10

that means i made 9$

see were i am coming from? no matter how many oranges i sell i am still loosing the 10% i cut my price by

if i sell 50 at .9$ i can i make 45$

if i sold 50 at 1$ i would make 50$

it is not possible to make up that 10% profit by selling more units at a lower price. simple math.

to sell more units apple would be better to look at existing markets. like Asia or Europe not just America. more people in China than America. China is a growing economy. has the fastest growing middle class sector on earth. more people with a disposable income than the population of America. apple manufactures their products in China it is not a stretch to sell the products in China.

of course there are costs involved to do this.
 

Trekkie

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2002
920
29
Wake Forest, NC
Simple math? Well, yes, it is math, and math works.

I sell 50 Items at $10, I make $500.

If I drop the price to $9 each, I need to sell 56 of them to make the $500.

The challenge is, will dropping your price to $9 mean you sell 56 of them instead of 50 of them?
 

furious

macrumors 65816
Aug 7, 2006
1,044
60
Australia
Trekkie said:
Simple math? Well, yes, it is math, and math works.

I sell 50 Items at $10, I make $500.

If I drop the price to $9 each, I need to sell 56 of them to make the $500.

The challenge is, will dropping your price to $9 mean you sell 56 of them instead of 50 of them?

and you are working 11% harder for the same money :eek:
 

Evangelion

macrumors 68040
Jan 10, 2005
3,376
184
furious said:
no matter how many you sell you will always be loosing 10% profit :p and you said " not necessarily" which would mean you are on a other planet:D

I'll try to explain myself more simply here:

If Item costs X dollars, many people would look at it and say "It's too expensive, I'm buying something else instead". If it costs (for example) 10% less, many of those people would end up buying the product, because it fits their pricepoint.

i said a 10% cut in profits in impossible to make up by selling more units

10% cut in MARGINS, not profits! For some reason you transformed by "10% cut in margins" in to "10% cut in profits", and then started arguing that. No wonder you got it wrong ;)
 
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