Mac Pro Rising

[zephonic]

@mw360, no worries.

I guess I got a little testy after AidenShaw nitpicked on the same post.

 

[JimGoshorn]

FCP X, Resolve and now even Adobe use proxy media, so the idea of needing an never ending more powerful cards just to do editing, seems like futility. One machine that does everything doesn't sound productive in the film/entertainment/TV and perhaps sending files for final render somewhere else might fill that need.

Adobe's use allows people to work with smaller files in the field and then import those edits to full resolution files back at the studio. Lightroom has a similar feature. Those don't eliminate the need for workstations though.

 

[koyoot]

Actually I didn't really mean to post it, sorry. By the time I noticed it was already quoted. I typed it cause it becuase your comment struck a nerve. Much of the GPU software we could take advantage of is CUDA only. It wasn't really worth the post though.

Start asking developers to port it to OpenCL.

Guys, it is 2017 in 6 months. 2014 is 2 and a half years behind us. I am always baffled when people say that software works only on CUDA, or complains when software is bottlenecking you guys, you want to buy new GPU to make it faster.

If software would not bottleneck you - there would not be any arguments on the front of software and hardware.

Why nobody wants to see this?

 

[JimGoshorn]

OpenCL is the way forward and the AMD GPUs are generally better at it.

Maybe I misunderstood but didn't I read a post on the forum recently that said that Apple hasn't advanced OpenCL because it has decided that Metal is the path forward?

 

[koyoot]

Maybe I misunderstood but didn't I read a post on the forum recently that said that Apple hasn't advanced OpenCL because it has decided that Metal is the path forward?

Metal is graphics API. Every program will still use OpenCL for compute only tasks.

 

[antonis]

AMD and nVidia are about the worst two example you could give for this.. these two companies are the ones who stand to benefit most by thunderbolt type advancements and external expansion.

and when the support comes (and it will.. soon).. and when the bandwidth opens up more (which is also here)..
they're most certainly going to be hyped to be getting their product outside of the box/tower and into their own external mini computer.. and the designs are definitely not going to be a raw circuit board.. already, the gpu designs are hiding the boards and being shaped/colored (and lit !?) in ways which are completely unnecessary for a product going inside another one.. they are built this way one for one exact reason.. they look kewl.. they know that if their product looks like something from the 80s, they're going to have a much harder time marketing/selling them.

i don't really know what to say.. i mean, i'm not upset from your insults to me or whatever.. i understand what you're saying.. unfortunately, the mindset you're speaking from is at least 15 years out of date. so no offense taken.
[doublepost=1466922946][/doublepost]
we aren't going back to that.

so what now?

Believe me, there was really no purpose of insulting or anything, I don't do that. 'Insult' is a very strong word.

But bringing the argument that Apple makes glued, proprietary and un-upgradeable products because the upgraded parts look visually bad ? Come on...
This post directly reminded me of all these apple defenders posting that the no-ports, super expensive retina macbook is the notebook of the future (yeah, I won't argue that maybe in 10 years laptops will be like that, but I directly argue they will have those miserable specs). Let's not have so much faith in a company, shall we ?

I'm sure you've seen by now that picture of nMP with all this ridiculously huge mess of cables and peripherals around it ? It doesn't look that futuristic, does it ? And still, it would make a very cheap argument if I posted it. People still work with internal PCI cards, and ports, and upgrades. They are not out of the market, or blown into the past just because Jony's arrogance said so. Let's keep our criticism a bit higher regarding apple's choices.

And how's my mindset at least 15 years old? You mean people stopped upgrading their machines or value the upgradeability of computers around 2000 ?

How's nvidia and amd going to benefit by using their gpus with external boxes, paying the performance penalty instead of taking the 100% of their power when used internally ? The only company that will might see a benefit from this is the one creating the glued, proprietary and un-upgradeable machines we mentioned earlier. Because for them, there's no other way.

 

[goMac]

Metal is graphics API. Every program will still use OpenCL for compute only tasks.

Nope. Metal is also the replacement for OpenCL.

https://developer.apple.com/metal/

"Metal provides the lowest-overhead access to the GPU, enabling you to maximize the graphics and compute potential of your apps on iOS, OS X, and tvOS."

Compute only is still supposed to be Metal from now on. You can use the compute features without the graphics features.

 

[Muffinlord]

Jony Ives "Simplicity is not the absence of clutter, that's a consequence of simplicity. Simplicity is somehow essentially describing the purpose and place of an object and product. The absence of clutter is just a clutter-free product. That's not simple."

Below is a picture used in inspiration for the new computer concept.

The new Mac pro will be modular. The idea is to make it simplistic!
You take the module you want, and plug it in.
You want a video card? plug it in!
You want a hard drive? Plug it in!
You want power? Plug it in!

"When something exceeds your ability to understand how it works, it sort of becomes magical."

Plug and play, taken to the next level.

 

[Hank Carter]

I describe myself as a computer hobbyist in that I'm interested in computers beyond using them simply as a tool as a means to an end. I'm interested in technology in general.

So, essentially you are an amateur who is telling professionals what hardware meets their needs?

That's just perfect.
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Current and perhaps future designed Mac Pro's, even if they had PCIe slots, were not efficient at running that many high end video cards without jerry rigging external power.

FCP X, Resolve and now even Adobe use proxy media, so the idea of needing an never ending more powerful cards just to do editing, seems like futility. One machine that does everything doesn't sound productive in the film/entertainment/TV and perhaps sending files for final render somewhere else might fill that need.

Well, you obviously do not work in post productions. Proxies will only get you so far and sooner or later you will need to process the real files. There is also a lot of other tasks involved in the imaging / production pipeline that requires a very powerful workstation and there is no way around that.

 

[pat500000]

Although Apple went sour lately, I thought Mac Pro or any Mac for that matter is about .........simplicity? Including internals as all?

 

[Hank Carter]

Macs are for programming for macOS, iOS, watchOS, tvOS, Final Cut Pro X, Logic Pro, and selling services.

Is this what any part of your business does? No.

This discussion would not exists if most of the "Pro's", who repeatedly whine about how awful Apple currently is, would simply not fail to see that fact. Apple sells services, applications, development platform.

Why do you want to make rhino into elephant? Because thats what you need? You always have a choice, if you do not understand that. Rather than turning a rhino into an elephant go and get an elephant.

Simpler it cannot be.

And who exactly appointed you as some authority that determines what is and isn't supped to be done on Mac's?

 

[koyoot]

And who exactly appointed you as some authority that determines what is and isn't supped to be done on Mac's?

It is exactly the same thing for you. Apple defines them. Are you seeing any other options looking at their hardware lineup?

 

[AidenShaw]

It is exactly the same thing for you. Apple defines them. Are you seeing any other options looking at their hardware lineup?

Yes, many options based on Apple's lineup:

• Z-Series
• Precision
• Thinkstation
• Alienware
• Falcon Northwest
• Boxx
• SuperMicro
• ...

 

[iMcLovin]

I think this thread makes a fair point. I switched to Apple about 10 years ago, and were amazed by the user friendliness of OSX once I got used to it. But I work with VFX, illustration, 3d and games, so I always need the best hardware I can get. Usually Apple has been ok with updating their pro machines, though you always had to pay out of your nose to get something near what you get from buying a PC (but I found it to be worth it because of the looks of the machines and OSX)....but lately Apple has completely stagnated on the Pro side, I've been trying my best to find any reason to stick with Apple as a working machine but there's hardly any arguments left and my next machine will be a windows PC.

On one hand I can get a PC with all the power and internals I want for a fraction of the price of an Apple computer (though price isnt the issue, lack of new hardware is the problem), and it can outperform my 5K iMac on absolutely everything I do. On the other hand I get a nice looking machine and handoff and imessage so I can write SMS from my computer. That is pretty much the ONLY thing the Mac offers me that I cant do on my PC. So, there are pretty much no arguments for me left sticking with apple - except trivial stuff. And the fact that switching over to pc will also let me buy hardware when I want it, not when Apple is good and ready to release it. Not needing to read Mac Rumors Buyers Guide for when I should upgrade my professional machine is an extra bonus. I dont mind Apple playing surprise games with phones and tablets and other toys, thats creating some of the buzz and fun, but with my pro machine I want to have a certain amount of personal control.
It seems to me the Mac Pro is dead, Apple has probably accepted that people didn't want a shiny cylinder, and I wouldnt be surprised if they leave it to die the same way they've done with the Thunderbolt Display without releasing a new machine...And if they release a new Mac Pro, its probably become like a few years back were they just updated the GPU to a slightly newer one, making you feel like a donkey for even supporting Apple. Macbook pro as well has pretty much been ignored for the last 2 years by Apple, so I think its safe to say that Apple wants to get away from the pro market and sell devices that are cheaper to produce with a bigger profit margin. I just hope, Apple will feel the ripple effect and their popularity will go down because of this. Buying a Mac Pro in its current state is just plain stupid (sorry to those of you that have, but it really is like throwing money into a bin (pun intended))

 

[koyoot]

Yes, many options based on Apple's lineup:

• Z-Series
• Precision
• Thinkstation
• Alienware
• Falcon Northwest
• Boxx
• SuperMicro
• ...

I was referring to my previous post:

Macs are for programming for macOS, iOS, watchOS, tvOS, Final Cut Pro X, Logic Pro, and selling services.

Do you see any other options for what are Mac's other than programming for Apple software ecosystem?

 

[Santabean2000]

I'm so disappointed that Apple lets their Macs just rot on the vine.

Annoying for me, but for Pros this is just completely unacceptable.

I get that the design team is deliberately small, but really, once the form-factor is created, couldn't a bunch of dedicated engineers tweak new components as they are released?

For a company with so many resources, they are unusually lazy. Yes lazy. Letting things rot is not 'being focused'.

 

[pat500000]

the attitude toward Mac Pro....sheesh

 

[AidenShaw]

I was referring to my previous post:
Do you see any other options for what are Mac's other than programming for Apple software ecosystem?

It is really sad if the only thing that a Mac "Pro" can do is make Iphone apps.

I get that the design team is deliberately small, but really, once the form-factor is created, couldn't a bunch of dedicated engineers tweak new components as they are released?

For a company with so many resources, they are unusually lazy. Yes lazy. Letting things rot is not 'being focused'.

The design of the MP6,1 is fundamentally flawed - tiny power supply, critical thermal issues, horrible use of PCIe lanes (which at the start are horribly limited by the choice of single CPU socket only), limited RAM slots (even a single socket supports 12 slots - not 4), single internal drive....

For that "bunch of dedicated engineers", it leaves them little more than to choose what colour lipstick to put on the pig.

Unless Apple fires Phil and his ass, and tells a team to look at the Z-Series and Precision and others and come out with a genre redefining workstation. If Apple wanted to, they could. But maybe they just don't care about workstations anymore.

 

[JimGoshorn]

Unless Apple fires Phil and his ass, and tells a team to look at the Z-Series and Precision and others and come out with a genre redefining workstation. If Apple wanted to, they could. But maybe they just don't care about workstations anymore.

I think my frustration is as much over the idea that Apple could have done much more but decided not to. The only "Pro" apps they're interested in are Final Cut and Logic and they built themselves a computer to keep those apps competitive. Even so, they're losing ground on video to Adobe.

According to some on the forum, this is part of an intentional plan. Maybe they are right, I don't know. We can continue the circular conversation but right or wrong, it doesn't change the fact that Apple is not building a computer for those of us who want internal expandability and/or upgradeability. Any upgrading is done externally which, to me, pretty well defeats the idea of a small elegant computer for limited workspaces. There is little chance they are going to go back to the pre 2013 design. This is their concept for the next decade of computing and if that's the case, they are going to continue making computers smaller and lighter which will make it harder and harder to have anything powerful due to size and heat constraints.

Like it or not, the point of making a choice that none of us longtime users want to make is approaching. It might be more productive to discuss the choices at this point than the reasons for making them.Something to seriously think about...

 

[pat500000]

I'm so disappointed that Apple lets their Macs just rot on the vine.

Annoying for me, but for Pros this is just completely unacceptable.

I get that the design team is deliberately small, but really, once the form-factor is created, couldn't a bunch of dedicated engineers tweak new components as they are released?

For a company with so many resources, they are unusually lazy. Yes lazy. Letting things rot is not 'being focused'.

Lazy maybe. Or...they just mostly wanna focus on idevices.
How did apple become so short sighted?
[doublepost=1467075031][/doublepost]

I think my frustration is as much over the idea that Apple could have done much more but decided not to. The only "Pro" apps they're interested in are Final Cut and Logic and they built themselves a computer to keep those apps competitive. Even so, they're losing ground on video to Adobe.

According to some on the forum, this is part of an intentional plan. Maybe they are right, I don't know. We can continue the circular conversation but right or wrong, it doesn't change the fact that Apple is not building a computer for those of us who want internal expandability and/or upgradeability. Any upgrading is done externally which, to me, pretty well defeats the idea of a small elegant computer for limited workspaces. There is little chance they are going to go back to the pre 2013 design. This is their concept for the next decade of computing and if that's the case, they are going to continue making computers smaller and lighter which will make it harder and harder to have anything powerful due to size and heat constraints.

Like it or not, the point of making a choice that none of us longtime users want to make is approaching. It might be more productive to discuss the choices at this point than the reasons for making them.Something to seriously think about...

Not unless Jon gets fired. I think he is so "ego focused" that one day there would be another hardware designer b* slap this guy so hard that Jon is regressing to his 6 year old days.

 

[JimGoshorn]

Lazy maybe. Or...they just mostly wanna focus on idevices.
How did apple become so short sighted?

They focused on iDevices where they can roll in green and consumer computers which can be used to connect to those devices to build Apple's idea of a complete eco-system.. There's a reason they went from Apple Computer to Apple.

 

[pat500000]

They focused on iDevices where they can roll in green and consumer computers which can be used to connect to those devices to build Apple's idea of a complete eco-system.. There's a reason they went from Apple Computer to Apple.

Yup. And there was a reason why Tim Cook gets mad when interviewers mentions Steve jobs.

 

[BB8]

The Mac is a pretty awful platform if it's been relegated to just developing iOS apps and using Apple's mediocre in-house pro software. It certainly wasn't always that way.

 

[pat500000]

I think this thread makes a fair point. I switched to Apple about 10 years ago, and were amazed by the user friendliness of OSX once I got used to it. But I work with VFX, illustration, 3d and games, so I always need the best hardware I can get. Usually Apple has been ok with updating their pro machines, though you always had to pay out of your nose to get something near what you get from buying a PC (but I found it to be worth it because of the looks of the machines and OSX)....but lately Apple has completely stagnated on the Pro side, I've been trying my best to find any reason to stick with Apple as a working machine but there's hardly any arguments left and my next machine will be a windows PC.

On one hand I can get a PC with all the power and internals I want for a fraction of the price of an Apple computer (though price isnt the issue, lack of new hardware is the problem), and it can outperform my 5K iMac on absolutely everything I do. On the other hand I get a nice looking machine and handoff and imessage so I can write SMS from my computer. That is pretty much the ONLY thing the Mac offers me that I cant do on my PC. So, there are pretty much no arguments for me left sticking with apple - except trivial stuff. And the fact that switching over to pc will also let me buy hardware when I want it, not when Apple is good and ready to release it. Not needing to read Mac Rumors Buyers Guide for when I should upgrade my professional machine is an extra bonus. I dont mind Apple playing surprise games with phones and tablets and other toys, thats creating some of the buzz and fun, but with my pro machine I want to have a certain amount of personal control.
It seems to me the Mac Pro is dead, Apple has probably accepted that people didn't want a shiny cylinder, and I wouldnt be surprised if they leave it to die the same way they've done with the Thunderbolt Display without releasing a new machine...And if they release a new Mac Pro, its probably become like a few years back were they just updated the GPU to a slightly newer one, making you feel like a donkey for even supporting Apple. Macbook pro as well has pretty much been ignored for the last 2 years by Apple, so I think its safe to say that Apple wants to get away from the pro market and sell devices that are cheaper to produce with a bigger profit margin. I just hope, Apple will feel the ripple effect and their popularity will go down because of this. Buying a Mac Pro in its current state is just plain stupid (sorry to those of you that have, but it really is like throwing money into a bin (pun intended))

That buyer's guide is crap. It doesn't help at all...should Mac Pro buyer guide should even exist?

 

[flat five]

Believe me, there was really no purpose of insulting or anything, I don't do that. 'Insult' is a very strong word.

when a response begins: "This should be nominated for the worst argument award".. pretty much every human is going to read that as an insult regardless of author intent (fwiw)

But bringing the argument that Apple makes glued, proprietary and un-upgradeable products because the upgraded parts look visually bad ? Come on...

apple's whole schtick is based around good looking products.. none (as in zilch) of their products look geeky..
not sure why you think slots and expansion circuit boards are still in their design language ?

This post directly reminded me of all these apple defenders posting that the no-ports, super expensive retina macbook is the notebook of the future (yeah, I won't argue that maybe in 10 years laptops will be like that, but I directly argue they will have those miserable specs).

heh.. my dream computer would have zero ports.. none.. no wires of any kind.. be about the size of a pea.. and reside in my body..
(just saying)

I'm sure you've seen by now that picture of nMP with all this ridiculously huge mess of cables and peripherals around it ? It doesn't look that futuristic, does it ?

this one?



..you're joking, right?


(hint.. that's not a photograph and it's been bouncing around the interwebz since before the nmp was even released)

And still, it would make a very cheap argument if I posted it. People still work with internal PCI cards, and ports, and upgrades. They are not out of the market, or blown into the past just because Jony's arrogance said so. Let's keep our criticism a bit higher regarding apple's choices.

if you use apple computers then yes, they actually are out of the market.. do people really not realize this? does anybody actually believe apple is going to bring pci slots back to a mac?

all of you who think they will if you yell loud enough should take it to the next level.. organize a hunger strike.. none of you eat until apple makes another mac with pci slots.

How's nvidia and amd going to benefit by using their gpus with external boxes

because their potential customer base increase tenfold.. probably more.
intel gpus are, i'm guessing, the most popular gpus being used in personal computers today.. not nvidia or amd.. with egpu, many/most of these users could choose to buy nvidia if they so desire.. (as well as mac users who have dedicated graphics.. they could opt to buy nvidia if they want)