Mac Pro Rising

[nigelbb]

My 4,1 2009 MacPro smokes a fully loaded 6,1 2013 nMP.

With 12 cores at 3.46GHz, 96GBs RAM, the Squid which holds four SM951s in a RAID 0 in PCIe slot 2 (5700MB/s reads) and a total system cost of less than $2800 (including a couple 3TB HDDs), and a Geenbench 3 64-bit score of 32000, I got two of them! For the cost of one 12-core nMP you could buy FOUR modded 2009s.

It depends what you are doing whether you can utilise all 12 cores & what your requirements are for single threaded performance. The single threaded performance of the cMP is well down on that of more modern CPUs. Looking at single core Geekbench results a 3.33GHz cMP scores 2739 (extrapolating a 3.46GHz would score 2846) whereas a 12-core 2.7GHz nMP scores 3139. A 6-core 3.5GHz nMP scores 3596.

There is then the small point of warranty & service on an old machine versus a new system although warranty might be moot if you have there backup systems sitting on the shelf

 

[flat five]

Ok so that makes the nMP significantly more appealing to me.

there's still the part about whether or not apple will release a model as the design calls for but yeah, the original design most definitely calls for 2x SSD.

 

[Mago]

i use one drive in each of the computers then everything else external.

Moreless same here, In my business I have a nMP , an iMac 5K, my co-workers have iMacs and MBPs and we share base mini as osx server and two synology NAS.

Almost everythng is stored on the NAS, the Mini OSX Server is used for Xcode/GitHub/Update Cache and TimeMachine (maped to the nas iScsi). Also I have an 1 TB Lacie LBDTB and a 6TB 2BigTB, the latest was my previous TimeMachine Unit now is used to move the backups to an 2nd location, the LBDTB Is the one I most frequently use Where I ran the heavy work, when I'm away my coworkers plug the LBD and the 2Big either to the Mac mini or to their own Macs, no need to give access to my personal Macs neither need to leave it powered sharing internal storage.

One picture is worth 10,000,000,000,000 words:

You said...

 

[AidenShaw]

You said...

That's a picture of a DAS, not a NAS

...and of course, if I needed - almost any DAS or NAS could be connected to a system with internal 3.5" drives.

 

[frou]

The single threaded performance of the cMP is well down on that of more modern CPUs.

I had to put the top of the line W3690 in my cMP for its single threaded Geekbench to (just) beat that of the tiny Intel NUC the size of a sandwich that my mother uses!

 

[goMac]

2) Time machine

I moved my time machine drive to the network. Stuffed it in a closet. Forgot about it. It's in the tens of terabytes. I can back up all my machines to it. It has redundancy which a single drive does not.

You know. Pro solutions for a pro setup. Why on earth would I want to put my Time Machine backups on a single drive inside my machine on a pro setup anyway? I could backup to a RAID array off somewhere where I don't have to worry about it with redundancy, or I can back up to a dingy single 3.5" drive internal to my machine that is slow with no redundancy.

So no, I don't feel bad I can't put 3.5" drives in a Mac Pro. It would be a waste of space. I would love another SSD slot, do not care at all about 3.5" slots.

 

[Hank Carter]

I moved my time machine drive to the network. Stuffed it in a closet. Forgot about it. It's in the tens of terabytes. I can back up all my machines to it. It has redundancy which a single drive does not.

You know. Pro solutions for a pro setup. Why on earth would I want to put my Time Machine backups on a single drive inside my machine on a pro setup anyway? I could backup to a RAID array off somewhere where I don't have to worry about it with redundancy, or I can back up to a dingy single 3.5" drive internal to my machine that is slow with no redundancy.

So no, I don't feel bad I can't put 3.5" drives in a Mac Pro. It would be a waste of space. I would love another SSD slot, do not care at all about 3.5" slots.

Different solutions for different setups. Personally I like to have more than one option at my disposal.
We take our machines on the road and need immediate backup on location. Network based backup isn't always an option.

Oh, and by the way I have been doing this professionally for about 25 years.

 

[goMac]

We take our machines on the road and need immediate backup on location.

Then buy an external RAID. A single drive as backup isn't really a backup at all. Especially an internal drive. An internal drive shares risk with the host machine.

They make really great external RAIDs these days. The Drobo Mini isn't a bad choice, and you could RAID either spinning rust drives or SSDs. And it's going to be a whole lot better than a single internal drive. If we're talking about dragging around a Mac Pro, bus powered isn't an issue either.

I just don't get why anyone would demand internal 3.5" slots when the alternatives are so much better. Again, all on board for more SSDs slots.

I won't even buy a spinning drive as an external for a laptop these days. It's just kissing all your performance goodbye.

 

[lowendlinux]

Then buy an external RAID. A single drive as backup isn't really a backup at all. Especially an internal drive. An internal drive shares risk with the host machine.

QFT

 

[Hank Carter]

Then buy an external RAID. A single drive as backup isn't really a backup at all. Especially an internal drive. An internal drive shares risk with the host machine.

Obviously this is not for footage, but for project files.

They make really great external RAIDs these days. The Drobo Mini isn't a bad choice, and you could RAID either spinning rust drives or SSDs. And it's going to be a whole lot better than a single internal drive. If we're talking about dragging around a Mac Pro, bus powered isn't an issue either.I just don't get why anyone would demand internal 3.5" slots when the alternatives are so much better. Again, all on board for more SSDs slots.

Seriously? A Drobo? Are you sure you are a professional? We wouldn't go near a Drobo with a 10ft pole.

This entire setup resides in an anvil case. The whole point is to avoid lose external drives, so a bus powered drive is not really an option.

Our rack mount RAID that also resides in the anvil case is mirrored and therefore redundant. We can add more than one of these RAID for extra protection and backup. We also have a LTO tape drive that critical footage is backed up to.

I won't even buy a spinning drive as an external for a laptop these days. It's just kissing all your performance goodbye.

There is almost no point in using an SSD for backup unless you want something that is not affected by vibration or impact. That is not a problem in this case. The hardware is sitting in an anvil case of considerable weight.

Personally I use a mirrored bus powered SSD RAID when I'm on the road for photographic work

 

[lowendlinux]

Seriously? A Drobo? Are you sure you are a professional? We wouldn't go near a Drobo with a 10ft pole.

The flip side is seriously a single spinning rust drive? Are you sure you're a professional?

 

[Hank Carter]

The flip side is seriously a single spinning rust drive? Are you sure you're a professional?

Rust drive.

That's cute.

 

[lowendlinux]

Rust drive.

That's cute.

Spinning rust is what people call platter drives whether you think it's "cute" or not. Spinning rust belongs in racks and part of a RAID where it can be monitored and fixed as required. My 5,1 has a spinning rust time machine drive in bay four, but that drive is also backed up to a RAID drive on a dell server every 8 hours. I have a bunch of spinning rust in my Hack/Linux box that get's rsynced to a server that's in my mop closet and some spinning rust at my home a single drive rust or not is not a backup plan especially if it's in the computer being used.

 

[thats all folks]

Spinning rust is what people call platter drives whether you think it's "cute" or not. Spinning rust belongs in racks and part of a RAID where it can be monitored and fixed as required. My 5,1 has a spinning rust time machine drive in bay four, but that drive is also backed up to a RAID drive on a dell server every 8 hours. I have a bunch of spinning rust in my Hack/Linux box that get's rsynced to a server that's in my mop closet and some spinning rust at my home a single drive rust or not is not a backup plan especially if it's in the computer being used.

The flip side is seriously a single spinning rust drive? Are you sure you're a professional?

here's the thing. you can do whatever you want. Hank (I'm guessing he is in the film/video production business), and many like him, have been doing it another way. a way that is widely accepted industry practice. we are not going to bring the mop closet out into the field. if you don't like what he does, don't hire him. but don't insist that everyone else is wrong simply because your preference differs.

 

[lowendlinux]

here's the thing. you can do whatever you want. Hank (I'm guessing he is in the film/video production business), and many like him, have been doing it another way. a way that is widely accepted industry practice. we are not going to bring the mop closet out into the field. if you don't like what he does, don't hire him. but don't insist that everyone else is wrong simply because your preference differs.

I didn't figure he/we would but having you backup in the computer on a single disk is bad juju whether you/he likes it not. Second his/your backup strategy means nothing to the customer as long has they have the cut file on whatever media they choose. Because somethings always been done a particular way doesn't make it smart.

 

[thats all folks]

You said...

wondering if you realize this is a product that not only isn't even shipping but also doesn't natively interface with any Apple product (Thunderbolt 3)?

 

[Hank Carter]

Spinning rust is what people call platter drives whether you think it's "cute" or not. Spinning rust belongs in racks and part of a RAID where it can be monitored and fixed as required. My 5,1 has a spinning rust time machine drive in bay four, but that drive is also backed up to a RAID drive on a dell server every 8 hours. I have a bunch of spinning rust in my Hack/Linux box that get's rsynced to a server that's in my mop closet and some spinning rust at my home a single drive rust or not is not a backup plan especially if it's in the computer being used.

I'm sorry, but I have never heard of anyone refer to a traditional magnetic hard drive as a 'rust drive'. Maybe it's an east coast / west coast thing, although I've lived on both ends and in the middle. To me personally it sounds like an expression you would hear from a junior high school student. You know, like when 8th graders refer to a herbivore Brontosaurus as a 'Veggie-Saurus', which really doesn't help your credibility if you are trying to argue your point.

SSD's may be the future but for the moment the world spins on traditional magnetic drives. A high quality HD is a perfectly acceptable solution for a backup drive. We pop one in the bay as an insurance policy to back up program files until we can get back to the facility and deal with the data properly. Obviously this could also be an SSD, since there is nothing stoping one from using one in a 3.5 inch bay.

I can't do much beyond describe to you the solutions we have adapted that work for us. We must be doing something right, because in all these years we have never lost a single file.

 

[rGiskard]

I come back after a few days and guys are still defending the Tube's lack of workstation features as, well, features. Incredible!

Guys, think back to 2012. Were there demands for Apple to switch to proprietary, non-upgradable GPU boards? Did Mac Pro users complain about having an option for two CPU sockets? Did they complain that their Mac Pros ran too cool? Did anyone complain that Apple forced them to use PCIe slots? Did they demand Apple offer a PCIe expansion chassis in their place? Did anyone assert that 8 DIMM slots on a two socket Mac Pro was 4 too many?

The only serious criticism I remember regarded the inability to power more than a single high end video card despite the existence of two x16 slots and a PSU fully capable of delivering the needed wattage.

The simple truth is that the Tube fails to meet the needs of a significant number of it's users, and a revised Mac Pro could have been offered that met those needs without burdening other users. How is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Mago]

I ve doing a bit of math, and I'm very confident I'll be running All my Storage on SSDs on the next 18 months, my only "concern" is unles I go on DIY I'll need to wait until a decent NAS on SSD only and with 10GBeth appears, I considered to move to 10Gbt but after being aware there is no NAS/Server compact and optimzed for
ssd that I realize is better to wait at least another year on Spinners rusting or stainless.

 

[pat500000]

I come back after a few days and guys are still defending the Tube's lack of workstation features as, well, features. Incredible!

Guys, think back to 2012. Were there demands for Apple to switch to proprietary, non-upgradable GPU boards? Did Mac Pro users complain about having an option for two CPU sockets? Did they complain that their Mac Pros ran too cool? Did anyone complain that Apple forced them to use PCIe slots? Did they demand Apple offer a PCIe expansion chassis in their place? Did anyone assert that 8 DIMM slots on a two socket Mac Pro was 4 too many?

The only serious complaint I remember regarded to the inability to power more than a single high end video card despite the existence of two x16 slots and a PSU fully capable of delivering the needed wattage.

The simple truth is that the Tube fails to meet the needs of a significant number of it's users, and a revised Mac Pro could have been offered that met those needs without burdening other users. How is this so difficult to understand?

The truth is either you adapt to their ways or it's hit the highway.

 

[Eric5h5]

It's a fairly ludicrous argument. A moderate amount of internal expansion space will serve a percentage of users (probably a fairly large percentage). People who want everything external can do that if they want, regardless of any internal expansion. It's not hurting them to have it available, but not having it available does hurt those who would find it useful. It hurts Apple too, since the result is fewer sales.

--Eric

 

[Blair Paulsen]

Considering what a modern laptop can do, what's the point of making a "desktop" computer in 2016? There is however, genuine demand for proper "workstations" for media creators and other hard core users. Workstations, for at least a few more years are going to need PCIe slots and plenty of lanes. With newer I/O options like TB3 I really don't see why most folks would want more than a couple of 2.5" internal bays for SSD storage plus m.2 support. If you need 24 to 500TB of storage, common for media creators, you're going to get a proper external RAID (or two) anyway.

I'm not trying to tell anybody how to roll, just pointing out that the number of users who consider massive internal storage critical in a TB3 world are too few to justify the space/weight requirement. I would rather dedicate the space and the wattage to 6 PCIe3 slots, 8 DDR4 RAM slots and dual CPU support in a smaller, more portable case than the cMP. I get the "mess 'o' cables" point, but one TB cable to a appropriately sized RAID for whatever you do seems simple enough to me.

I just want OS X, fast slots for GPUs/RAID controllers/speciality cards and support for 512GB of DDR4 RAM in a reasonably compact form factor. Is that so wrong?

 

[antonis]

I come back after a few days and guys are still defending the Tube's lack of workstation features as, well, features. Incredible!

Guys, think back to 2012. Were there demands for Apple to switch to proprietary, non-upgradable GPU boards? Did Mac Pro users complain about having an option for two CPU sockets? Did they complain that their Mac Pros ran too cool? Did anyone complain that Apple forced them to use PCIe slots? Did they demand Apple offer a PCIe expansion chassis in their place? Did anyone assert that 8 DIMM slots on a two socket Mac Pro was 4 too many?

The only serious criticism I remember regarded the inability to power more than a single high end video card despite the existence of two x16 slots and a PSU fully capable of delivering the needed wattage.

The simple truth is that the Tube fails to meet the needs of a significant number of it's users, and a revised Mac Pro could have been offered that met those needs without burdening other users. How is this so difficult to understand?

Yup, don't be surprised. I am not getting surprised anymore, either. Did ever people say "damn you, apple, my laptop has too many ports" ?
Nope. Still, people defending it now, after the rMB is released. It is always afterwards that they realize they were "too free" before. Apple's been doing this for ages, they know how to guide their flock. The difference is that - until a few years ago - they used to deliver great products on top of that. Now...more and more people need to try hard to even justify the purchase of a Mac.

 

[lowendlinux]

I'm sorry, but I have never heard of anyone refer to a traditional magnetic hard drive as a 'rust drive'. Maybe it's an east coast / west coast thing, although I've lived on both ends and in the middle. To me personally it sounds like an expression you would hear from a junior high school student. You know, like when 8th graders refer to a herbivore Brontosaurus as a 'Veggie-Saurus', which really doesn't help your credibility if you are trying to argue your point.

SSD's may be the future but for the moment the world spins on traditional magnetic drives. A high quality HD is a perfectly acceptable solution for a backup drive. We pop one in the bay as an insurance policy to back up program files until we can get back to the facility and deal with the data properly. Obviously this could also be an SSD, since there is nothing stoping one from using one in a 3.5 inch bay.

I can't do much beyond describe to you the solutions we have adapted that work for us. We must be doing something right, because in all these years we have never lost a single file.

http://etherealmind.com/network-dictionary-spinning-rust/

http://www.wired.com/2012/10/linus-torvalds-hard-disks/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/11/18tb_disk_drives_in_2018/

We all still use spinning rust but they don't and shouldn't be in the box especially if its going to be moved around a lot. Having you backup drive be a single drive in the machine is silly whether you've never lost a file or not.

 

[Pending]

I'm sorry, but I have never heard of anyone refer to a traditional magnetic hard drive as a 'rust drive'. Maybe it's an east coast / west coast thing, although I've lived on both ends and in the middle. To me personally it sounds like an expression you would hear from a junior high school student. You know, like when 8th graders refer to a herbivore Brontosaurus as a 'Veggie-Saurus', which really doesn't help your credibility if you are trying to argue your point.

SSD's may be the future but for the moment the world spins on traditional magnetic drives. A high quality HD is a perfectly acceptable solution for a backup drive. We pop one in the bay as an insurance policy to back up program files until we can get back to the facility and deal with the data properly. Obviously this could also be an SSD, since there is nothing stoping one from using one in a 3.5 inch bay.

I can't do much beyond describe to you the solutions we have adapted that work for us. We must be doing something right, because in all these years we have never lost a single file.

Hank,
Just to mention 'rust drive' or 'spinning rust' are expressions used for HDD and have been around for a while, longer than I knew. Its not a west or east coast thing. Here is an article from 2013 'Rust Never Sleeps' http://www.infostor.com/disk-arrays/disk-drives/hdds-are-still-spinning-rust-never-sleeps-1.html