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You forgot to qualify that with "for me". You like external expansion? Fine. Why do you think everyone else should hold the same opinion? Furthermore the cMP did not preclude the use of external storage. If you wanted to use external storage with the cMP nothing was/is stopping you. The opposite cannot be said of the nMP...want to use internal storage...you're out of luck.

SATA III vs Thunderbolt? Is your main gripe that you have to have an enclosure on your desk? It certainly isn't speed related. I don't know how many edit bays I walk into every day and see the ole trusty cheese grater and mountains of external enclosures attached. Just trying to make sense of your rant. BTW, I'm not simply just some "apologist", I happen to own and am very happy with a 4,1 & 5,1 in my home studio. My corporate work studio is just as capable, if not more, with a 6,1. *shrill heard for miles*

You're not being "attacked" for your opinion. You're being "attacked" because you refuse to accept others opinions.

If I say I prefer the color green telling me there are alternatives demonstrates an unwillingness to accept my preference. As a preference I don't need to hear about alternatives. Telling me about them serves no purpose other than an attempt to convince me some other color should be my preference.

Try mixing yellow and blue. Maybe you'll live a longer life?
 
Asking for more SSD slots I can understand. Anyone who is asking for 3.5" drive bays is doing it wrong. If you want that, seriously, get an external. It doesn't make any sense to include that as an internal drive, especially when to get any sort of pro performance out of them you have to RAID a bunch together.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 3.5" drives to start disappearing from PC workstations as well, and motherboards to start shipping with less and less SATA connectors. Complaining about internal 3.5" drives is like complaining about the lack of internal floppy disk drives in 1999.

Asking for 3.5" drives is like asking for a fast car with that is hauling a semi trailer behind it. Why bother buying such fast hardware to run it off slow drives that will bottleneck everything?
Here we go again...refusing to accept other people's preferences.
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Yes, internal storage bays don't preclude using external storage. But as in the example of our massive SCSI array, once you get outside the box, the box becomes annoying, which is why we didn't put some of the drives in bays in a case, and the rest in our semi-enclosure outside. If you're doing maintenance, you don't want to run into, "oh, that particular drive is inside the case, okay we have to shut down and open the case, and pull the drive". At that point a large case becomes an impediment, and we wanted to get rid of it. A huge tower case with only four bays is not attractive to most professional users who need mass storage any more. The drive sleds in the cheese grater were a godsend back in the day, but they're not enough for the future.

Liking internal bays is not an invalid choice. But not realizing that the future of high-end professional computing lies in getting rid of them, and insisting that Apple maintain that choice for you in the face of evidence that they're becoming dinosaurs, isn't realistic. I know people who still use DIPs in their work or hobbies, it makes sense for what they're doing. But they sure don't grouse about the fact that manufacturers who mass produce computers no longer use DIPs. No grumbling about "cain't replace individual memory chips no more". I'm happy to banish the DIP extractor from my tool bag. Happily looking forward to a future without arbitrary limits on bays or slots. I'm quite sure there will be niche manufacturers accommodating those who want or need older options, but don't expect mass producers to do it.
Says who? You?
 
SATA III vs Thunderbolt? Is your main gripe that you have to have an enclosure on your desk? It certainly isn't speed related. I don't know how many edit bays I walk into every day and see the ole trusty cheese grater and mountains of external enclosures attached. Just trying to make sense of your rant. BTW, I'm not simply just some "apologist", I happen to own and am very happy with a 4,1 & 5,1 in my home studio. My corporate work studio is just as capable, if not more, with a 6,1. *shrill heard for miles*



Try mixing yellow and blue. Maybe you'll live a longer life?
My "rant" is it is not up to you to decide my preferences or the way I work. I don't attempt to foist my preferences on you, why do you feel the need to do it to me?
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Right. What are you going to get out of four drive bays? You could RAID four hard drives together to start getting close to acceptable speeds, but then you'll lose redundancy. I get maybe you want a large drive to store your iTunes Store movie connection, but this is a pro machine.

I just don't get pros asking for slow drives. For portable situations, the space you save haul along an external RAID array. They make portable ones. Problem solved. At your desk just shove it in a drawer or put it on the floor. Or put it on the network. There are a bajillion ways to solve this problem instead of demanding slow internal 3.5" bays.
What says they have to be slow drives? I can put SSDs in those four bays if I so choose.
 
My "rant" is it is not up to you to decide my preferences or the way I work. I don't attempt to foist my preferences on you, why do you feel the need to do it to me?
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What says they have to be slow drives? I can put SSDs in those four bays if I so choose.

Man, if you think I'm "foisting" my preferences on you, I'd hate to be the server that recommends the soups of the day to you when you walk in.

I say again...Try mixing yellow and blue. Maybe you'll live a longer life?
 
Man, if you think I'm "foisting" my preferences on you, I'd hate to be the server that recommends the soups of the day to you when you walk in.

I say again...Try mixing yellow and blue. Maybe you'll live a longer life?
That's exactly what you're doing when someone says they prefer something a certain way and you try to convince them that way is wrong, stupid, foolish, pick your poison.
 
Why bother buying such fast hardware to run it off slow drives that will bottleneck everything?
One picture is worth 10,000,000,000,000 words:

enterprise-capacity-3-5-hdd-10tb-front-400x400[1].jpg

http://www.seagate.com/internal-har...-drives/hdd/enterprise-capacity-3-5-hdd-10tb/

Sometimes you need fast storage, sometimes you need big storage. Why build a system that can't handle big storage?

(And if you look at the real workstation vendors, many of them offer the option to utilize a 3.5" disk bay for two 2.5" drives. And the drives aren't glued in.)

And big storage isn't slow if the disk can keep up with the processing demands for data.
 
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Maybe not your use case, maybe not the use case for every single person you've ever met in your entire industry, but there are 7 billion people in this world and many of us are bound to have significantly different needs and preferences.

i think people interpret me (or others) saying "hey, here's something different that works for me.." or " this is a newer way of working that i'm finding advantageous"

as:

"hey, my way is THE way and YOU need to adapt"

....
it's borderline ridiculous to assume this is what most 'nmp advocates' are saying..
i mean, come on.. this is a mac pro forum.. there are fans of macs here and they gather here as it's a place to ramble about some tech they happen to like..

if i went to some hpz forum and started talking "maybe it's not the best design to have 5 drive bays inside your computer.. apple does it like _____ and it's better" (or whatever), then, you may have a case for me being out of line..

..but if i can't talk about macs and working with macs or mac designs in a mac forum, where do you suppose i should go?
should i just shut up? should i just quit talking about aspects of particular designs for fear that some other forum members might get paranoid and think i'm telling them to drink kool-aid or something?

about the only 'advice' i give here towards the negative voices is ala-- if apple doesn't make computers you want then quit buying them.. (which, for whatever reason, usually gets negative remarks in return even though it's about the most simple equation out there)



cMP:
1-6 internal SATA bays for industry standard devices; PCIe-based drives; external drives; local network attached storage; and the cloud.
nMP: 1 custom PCIe-based drive, external drives, local network attached storage, and the cloud.

The nMP design is a reduction in storage capability and flexibility. It compromises many use cases, hence the frequent complaints.


this is something else that's always a bit weird to me.. a lot of people who argue in favor of cmp design over 6,1 have this knack for explaining the cmp in just about every single argument ("cmp has pcie slots which allows user a much wider variety of gpus to be used".. "cmp has internal storage".. etcetc).

the part that's wonky is that a lot of people here have been using macs for a long time.. i used a cmp since they very first came out and replaced about 2 years ago.. like the only people who've used cmp longer than i are those that got a new 1,1 and are still using cmp today..

point being -- you don't have to explain what a cmp is or the difference between it and 6,1.. you don't have to explain the difference between using cmp internal drive bays and 6,1s single drive.

we (or at least I) already know the differences... everything you're (and hey, not necessarily you, a.m., in particular) trying to get across is wasted breath because we've worked with the hardware you're discussing for the past decade..
[edit] heh, we're about one month away from it being exactly one decade for mac pro line.[/edit]

of course we know what you're talking about... you understand this, right?

you're saying nothing new or insightful or different.. it's the 'nmp advocates' that are saying new things.. fresh ideas.. exploring new ways of working.. etc.

and those people trying to talk about these newish and certainly future ways of computing are being constantly barraged with crap like "that idea is st00pid!.. listen to my idea and my preferences!!" (which leads in to them explaining my basic computing set up for at least the past decade as if i'm completely unaware that any such computer like cmp has ever existed.. or what it's like to swap a gpu.. or what it's like to put bulk storage inside a computer.)


[edit]- hmmm. for some reason Mango, i thought you had quoted me in the post i just responded to of yours.. idk, i'm just speaking generally in the above and not directly at you but sorry for the confusion anyway.
 
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Right. What are you going to get out of four drive bays? You could RAID four hard drives together to start getting close to acceptable speeds, but then you'll lose redundancy. I get maybe you want a large drive to store your iTunes Store movie connection, but this is a pro machine.

I just don't get pros asking for slow drives. For portable situations, the space you save haul along an external RAID array. They make portable ones. Problem solved. At your desk just shove it in a drawer or put it on the floor. Or put it on the network. There are a bajillion ways to solve this problem instead of demanding slow internal 3.5" bays.


1) System drive MacOS (SSD)
2) Time machine
3) Applications
4) Cache for application data (SSD)

or

1) System drive MacOS (SSD)
2) System drive Windows (SSD)
3) Time machine
4) Cache for application data. (SSD)


You don't need RAID speed for everything and even a single SSD is blazing fast.
You could also drop a 2 drive SSD RAID in a 3.5 inch bay.

Believe it or not some of us still need to burn Blu Ray discs
 
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You don't need RAID speed for everything and even a single SSD is blazing fast.
You could also drop a 2 drive SSD RAID in a 3.5 inch bay.
and if you do need ultimate speed, you have PCIe slots,
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1113474-REG/apricorn_vel_duo_velocity_duo_x2.html
two SSDs on a card, RAID them together. heck, two cards, 4 SSDs, all RAIDED together. 4TB for less than double Apple's up-charge on the 1TB for the nMP. that will just saturate the top two 4x slots and still room for two graphics cards and 4 hard drives and you can also put two drives in the DVD bays. it never ends.
 
This is something else that's always a bit weird to me.. a lot of people who argue in favor of cmp design over 6,1 have this knack for explaining the cmp in just about every single argument ("cmp has pcie slots which allows user a much wider variety of gpus to be used".. "cmp has internal storage".. etcetc).

It would even be weirder is being on the third or fourth generation of the nMP years from now and the same people still talking about the old Mac Pro, PCIe slots and never moved on...
 
It would even be weirder is being on the third or fourth generation of the nMP years from now and the same people still talking about the old Mac Pro, PCIe slots and never moved on...
yeah, it'd be weird because i'd be like-
"holy crap! these old ass dudes are still alive?!? weird!"


(come on.. i'm joking.. i'm joking ;) )
 
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It would even be weirder is being on the third or fourth generation of the nMP years from now and the same people still talking about the old Mac Pro, PCIe slots and never moved on...

yeah, it'd be weird because i'd be like-
"holy crap! these old ass dudes are still alive?!? weird!"
sure, 4th gen, so 10-13 years from now? some of us will be dead.
 
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Says who? You?

Me and decades of watching the industry evolve and having to come up with solutions for limitations. I remember one instance when the IBM PC had just come out, IBM gave us a grant, and we were doing a demonstration of the capabilities of the new stuff to a bunch of professors. Afterwards, I heard two guys arguing about the IBM XT, which came with a 10MB hard drive. They were used to using removable disk packs, and one of the guys was adamant that nobody would ever use these dinky, non-removable drives that you actually put in a computer on your desk.

G1: I'm sure they'll be able to hold more in the future.
G2: So? That just means they'll be able to put more on a disk pack too.
G1: More convenient. Don't have to wait for an operator to mount yours.
G2: But you can only have one for each computer. If it fills up, then what are you going to do, you can't swap it like a disk pack.
G1: (muses for a bit) Maybe they can invent a mini disk pack drive for your desk.
G2: (glares at G1) I'll never use one of the damn things.

Guy 1 applied for a grant, Guy 2 didn't. But see, they were each responding to what they saw as the limiting features of each of the two technologies. Guy 2 ran bigger data sets that wouldn't fit in 10MB. Guy 1 hated waiting for operators, and had low priority so he had to wait longer and got bumped more. Each of their concerns were real, and the way they wanted the industry to move was based in those concerns.

But Guy 2's concerns didn't stop the industry from moving to internal hard drives. And I will guarantee you, Guy 2 did eventually abandon removable disk packs, and used internal hard drives.

Nobody is stupid or Luddite for wanting what serves them the best in the moment. But I've had extensive experience having to see problems from the point of view of many widely different needs, and when I talk about where I see the industry headed based on the aggregate needs of many different people, I don't appreciate having people making what I say all about them, and insisting that I'm telling them that they're wrong to want what they want. I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just telling you that you need to be prepared for the industry to follow a path that doesn't mesh with what you want.

I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time). But I'm pretty sure the ship has sailed on external storage. That's a done deal. I don't know that the industry will ever drop having a single SSD internal (how about having some "SSD" for the OS actually integrated into the core system board, I'm sure you can see that, shades of EPROMS for the system BIOS come around again, hands up if that gives you hives), but multiple but limited bays inside a large monolithic tower are on their way out. I could see something like that expandable Mac Pro that someone posted (although it would likely be someone like HP to do it, not Apple), where you could have a variably sized disk enclosure attached to your smaller "case" holding your core system. People are used to tower cases, and it would provide something visually similar to what they're used to, easing their transition. But buyers are going to insist that not be fixed and permanent, they'll want to be able to change it out if their needs change. There will be very few who care that there's no "bays" internal to the core system.

The external slots thing is more iffy. I don't know where the cutting edge technology on that is, although I expect Apple does. And the fact that Apple abandoned the internal slots means they see the technology being there. Superior technology doesn't always win out in the short term though. AMDs precarious position means that NVidia doesn't have a good strong competitor pushing it into adopting better tech faster. GPU's are the major driver of need for slots, so whither goest the GPU goest the industry.
 
Me and decades of watching the industry evolve and having to come up with solutions for limitations. I remember one instance when the IBM PC had just come out, IBM gave us a grant, and we were doing a demonstration of the capabilities of the new stuff to a bunch of professors. Afterwards, I heard two guys arguing about the IBM XT, which came with a 10MB hard drive. They were used to using removable disk packs, and one of the guys was adamant that nobody would ever use these dinky, non-removable drives that you actually put in a computer on your desk.

G1: I'm sure they'll be able to hold more in the future.
G2: So? That just means they'll be able to put more on a disk pack too.
G1: More convenient. Don't have to wait for an operator to mount yours.
G2: But you can only have one for each computer. If it fills up, then what are you going to do, you can't swap it like a disk pack.
G1: (muses for a bit) Maybe they can invent a mini disk pack drive for your desk.
G2: (glares at G1) I'll never use one of the damn things.

Guy 1 applied for a grant, Guy 2 didn't. But see, they were each responding to what they saw as the limiting features of each of the two technologies. Guy 2 ran bigger data sets that wouldn't fit in 10MB. Guy 1 hated waiting for operators, and had low priority so he had to wait longer and got bumped more. Each of their concerns were real, and the way they wanted the industry to move was based in those concerns.

But Guy 2's concerns didn't stop the industry from moving to internal hard drives. And I will guarantee you, Guy 2 did eventually abandon removable disk packs, and used internal hard drives.

Nobody is stupid or Luddite for wanting what serves them the best in the moment. But I've had extensive experience having to see problems from the point of view of many widely different needs, and when I talk about where I see the industry headed based on the aggregate needs of many different people, I don't appreciate having people making what I say all about them, and insisting that I'm telling them that they're wrong to want what they want. I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just telling you that you need to be prepared for the industry to follow a path that doesn't mesh with what you want.

I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time). But I'm pretty sure the ship has sailed on external storage. That's a done deal. I don't know that the industry will ever drop having a single SSD internal (how about having some "SSD" for the OS actually integrated into the core system board, I'm sure you can see that, shades of EPROMS for the system BIOS come around again, hands up if that gives you hives), but multiple but limited bays inside a large monolithic tower are on their way out. I could see something like that expandable Mac Pro that someone posted (although it would likely be someone like HP to do it, not Apple), where you could have a variably sized disk enclosure attached to your smaller "case" holding your core system. People are used to tower cases, and it would provide something visually similar to what they're used to, easing their transition. But buyers are going to insist that not be fixed and permanent, they'll want to be able to change it out if their needs change. There will be very few who care that there's no "bays" internal to the core system.

The external slots thing is more iffy. I don't know where the cutting edge technology on that is, although I expect Apple does. And the fact that Apple abandoned the internal slots means they see the technology being there. Superior technology doesn't always win out in the short term though. AMDs precarious position means that NVidia doesn't have a good strong competitor pushing it into adopting better tech faster. GPU's are the major driver of need for slots, so whither goest the GPU goest the industry.
I guess some people are afraid of changes.
 
2012 vs 2013. We're not talking about a huge time gap. Re-read my CTO spec...Not seeing how you think the picture is distorted?

It wasn't the design of the 2013 that made the ram and storage cheaper - it was a combination of natural falls in pricing and Apple being less insane about pricing those components.

IF you'd bought a remaining 2012 after the 2013 had been released, you could have put the RAM and storage in for basically the same cost at the 2013 versions.

But, you'd have a machine that needed no extra chassis costs to put multiple high capacity spinning drives, and extra peripheral cards in it.

That's the perception aspect of this I'm talking about.
 
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My 4,1 2009 MacPro smokes a fully loaded 6,1 2013 nMP.

With 12 cores at 3.46GHz, 96GBs RAM, the Squid which holds four SM951s in a RAID 0 in PCIe slot 2 (5700MB/s reads) and a total system cost of less than $2800 (including a couple 3TB HDDs), and a Geenbench 3 64-bit score of 32000, I got two of them! For the cost of one 12-core nMP you could buy FOUR modded 2009s.
 
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