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Btw, did anyone else thought, that the WWDC 2018 logo points out to 3D UI elements? Could the next macOS have an optional 3D user interface for VR/AR? That could be why it took so much time to design mMP, to wait the final specification of VR/AR requirements and all the features T3 (IoT transmitters and sensor readout) needs to have for them. Today we have just two VR ready Mac's (iMac Pro and iMac with 580 GPU). Perhaps at WWDC they'll release next gen iMac's and Mac Mini's with Intel EMIB and Vega and therefore most of the desktop will be VR ready (Apple standard). Most laptops will need eGPU. mMP is waiting for the next stable OS for VR to be released (10.14.3 minimum). For a full featured experience, T3 and dGPU are required.

Just some thoughts, nothing based on anything. :p

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Apple has a quest for ever decreasing size and ever increasingly simpler computers. Part of it is that consumers prefer a smaller simpler product and part of it is just Apple. The cMP is big and heavy and hard to ship and they aren't ever going to make a computer like that ever again.

Craig Federighi: "I think it’s a strength of the company that we see new technologies creating new opportunities. We tend to try to jump on those pretty aggressively and so you look at that architecture of that Mac Pro, it had great Thunderbolt external I/O and we said: ‘This is a great opportunity to change what had been a conventional build a big card rack and slot a bunch of cards in there.’ We said: ‘a lot of this storage can be achieved with very high performance with Thunderbolt. So we built a design in part around that assumption, as well. Some of the pro community has been sort of moving that direction, but we had certainly in mind the need for expandability. If you wanted a great RAID solution in there, it probably made a lot more sense to put it outside the box than actually be constrained within the physical enclosure that contained the CPU. So, I think we went into it with some interesting ideas, and not all of them paid off."

Craig doesn't see replacing SATA bays and PCIe slots with thunderbolt as a mistake, when he says not all of the interesting ideas payed off he's referring to dual GPUs and thermal limitations that he talked about earlier but the overall concept as a small box with external storage connected via thunderbolt he still approves of. He's totally wrong about RAID and PCIe slots but I don't think he sees it that way.
My bad. I thought you were suggesting the mMP should be tiny, instead of stating that apple will probably again try to make it as small as they can.
 
Today we have just two VR ready Mac's (iMac Pro and iMac with 580 GPU).

Or, one barely capable of driving the previous generation of headset (iMac Pro) and one which doesn't meet the minimum requirements of one of the two, and only two, non-game VR apps for macOS on Steam.

*Edit* When Gravity Sketch was first released for macOS on Steam, it didn't even list the Vega 56 iMac Pro as meeting its minimum spec - it was Vega 64 only. My suspicion is that someone at Apple had "discussions" with them over that, because a week later, it had its minimum spec changed to just "iMac Pro".

The idea that WWDC is going to bring any sort of great VR revolution on the mac is laughable, just unthinkably improbable, given AMD has nothing to offer in terms of high resolution 3D environment suitable hardware.
 
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Or, one barely capable of driving the previous generation of headset (iMac Pro) and one which doesn't meet the minimum requirements of one of the two, and only two, non-game VR apps for macOS on Steam.

The idea that WWDC is going to bring any sort of great VR revolution on the mac is laughable, just unthinkably improbable, given AMD has nothing to offer in terms of high resolution 3D environment suitable hardware.

I like to think different. VR could change Pro workflow. Forget Steam, it's not Apple's business. Apple will follow their own paths. At WWDC they could introduce the first generation of a VR user interface (based on the invitation logo). It'd be quite usable even on a 2D screen. Apple VR hardware will come later, when the software is ready.

My bet is that Apple VR/AR is meant for a daily computing duties and for a new kind of entertainment, and the real GPU power will be delivered from inside "the goggles". With Apple GPU. Paring them with an iToy, AppleTV and/or a Mac will create a new kind of tool. Mac will create the 3D user interface, that is attached to the AR world within the goggles. With low latency, ProMotion, FaceID tech expanded to a greater scale and highly sophisticated sensors it will be totally different experience than anything before.

Making OS's ready takes time. I believe that Metal was the first step. Now Apple is ready for next_step.

I really think that it could be the revolution that Apple seeks. Past few year have been quite unsurprising with Apple.
 
But the MP6,1 is using CPUs that were released five years ago.

Apple could make a huge leap by using the current generation of Xeon-W (like the 18-core iMac) and Scalable Xeons (up to 28 cores per socket).

You seem to be making an argument that Apple should wait for 10nm, rather than shipping the much better (than E5-x6xx v2) current Xeons.

Sometimes your "AMD agenda" leads you to post arguments with a questionable basis in facts. This whole 10nm tangent seems to be a case in point. There's no reason to claim that Apple can't update its (very old) MP6,1 systems before 2021 - much better chips are here now.
You really need to work on reading comprehension, mate.

How can you draw from posts saying that there will be no 10 nm process CPUs, that Apple should wait for them - I have no idea. How can you draw conclusion out of posts about saving money, or getting the most out of money payed that there is an AMD Agenda - I have no idea.

My point is simple. If you pay 9-10k$ for a machine, you would want it to be fast. Really fast. You wan't to get most of your money. 18 core Mac Pro will not be faster, than competition, because there will be faster, and cheaper options. Unless you like to flush your money in the toilet, then anything that Apple will come up with is another great way to do so. Would you pay 9-10k for 18 core Mac Pro, when you know that you can pay less for 32 core machine, with more RAM, more... everything? I wouldn't. Not with my workflow, which is cross platform.

There is no "AMD agenda", apart from your mind. The fact that I am talking about Intel Problems is about me talking about Intel problems, and the fact that Apple will be directly affected by them. Nothing more, nothing less.

How will it affect professional space, when best thing Apple can offer is for example that 18 core CPU, for 10K$, when everybody else are on 32 core CPUs, and are doing the jobs 30-40% quicker? You want "Faster horses, instead of cars"?

Not to mention - not only Xeons are used by Apple computers, and there will be no new architecture at least to 2020, and everything points at this moment that 10 nm may be dead, completely.

Only Agenda I have is saving money, and getting more out of money. Simple as it can be.
 
I like to think different. VR could change Pro workflow. Forget Steam, it's not Apple's business. Apple will follow their own paths. At WWDC they could introduce the first generation of a VR user interface (based on the invitation logo). It'd be quite usable even on a 2D screen. Apple VR hardware will come later, when the software is ready.

My bet is that Apple VR/AR is meant for a daily computing duties and for a new kind of entertainment, and the real GPU power will be delivered from inside "the goggles". With Apple GPU. Paring them with an iToy, AppleTV and/or a Mac will create a new kind of tool. Mac will create the 3D user interface, that is attached to the AR world within the goggles. With low latency, ProMotion, FaceID tech expanded to a greater scale and highly sophisticated sensors it will be totally different experience than anything before.

Making OS's ready takes time. I believe that Metal was the first step. Now Apple is ready for next_step.

I really think that it could be the revolution that Apple seeks. Past few year have been quite unsurprising with Apple.

At this point Apple is merely dabbling in making computers; in software and and user interface development they are not even on the map .
I think they should first get the basics straight and go from there .

VR, AI, AR are rapidly changing fields , betting on the requirements of the future is a fool's errand .
Workstations are about the present and the past - the avantgarde is building on what exists, workstations then adapt if and when necessary .

The most advanced tech is running on custom rigs anyways, always has, always will - pursuing that goal is a certain dead end street for consumers, pro or not .

In the meantime, I for one just want to keep using the OS that isn't Windows ( or High Sierra ... ) in a well made computer with lots of configurable options .
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You really need to work on reading comprehension, mate.

Calm down already, would you ? :rolleyes:

Would you pay 9-10k for 18 core Mac Pro, when you know that you can pay less for 32 core machine, with more RAM, more... everything? I wouldn't. Not with my workflow, which is cross platform.

Agreed .
Anyone who is not commited to OSX , one way or another , has zero incentive to buy or use a Mac for work these days .
 
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I like to think different. VR could change Pro workflow.

I think you're missing a fundamental problem - macOS, because of Apple's reliance on AMD hardware, does not have access to the graphics hardware necessary to generate the VR workspaces where Pro app work will be done.

Imagine if the Mac still had a 512 pixel black & white display - how would Final Cut Pro, or Divinci Resolve even be imagined as a thing that could be done on the mac?

A VR workspace, is basically running two of the highest detail, most hardware intensive first person shooters at once.

That relentless progress of higher and higher quality isn't going to plateau until simulation is indistinguishable from reality, and until the plateau, you don't have an in with secondrate hardware.

Noone is going to buy a mac to use VR Pro apps, if they can't get a decent workspace. Noone is going to write VR-based pro apps for macOS, if there isn't an install base of hardware capable of generating the workspaces. THATS why Steam is relevant - noone is investing in making mac VR apps, because there literally aren't enough potential customers to recoup the investment, and those customers there are, will only be getting secondrate experiences.

Apple coming up with their own non-steam based VR platform isn't going to solve that, just like Metal didn't solve AMD being less-capable than Nvidia at powering 3D engines at high resolution.

VR for doing work makes high-quality-graphics gaming look like a picnic.

Forget Steam, it's not Apple's business. Apple will follow their own paths. At WWDC they could introduce the first generation of a VR user interface (based on the invitation logo). It'd be quite usable even on a 2D screen. Apple VR hardware will come later, when the software is ready.

By VR user interface, are you talking about just Finder in VR? Because, aside from a VR based file manager, there literally isn't anything for Apple to contribute here. That's the thing - a VR computer isn't just a desktop computing environment with goggles thrown in, the very idea of there being an operating system that you interact with, doesn't have an equivalent in VR - A mac running Gravity Sketch, is exactly the same as a windows machine running Gravity Sketch. From inside, there's no way to tell what system you're running on - the operating system itself is a commoditised, and redundant factor. You're no more going to care about, or interact with macOS than you did about, or with, Open Firmware in the PowerPC days.

Literally, all that a VR system needs furnished by the operating system, in terms of user interface, is a way to launch the "home" app. On windows, you have Steam Home, and Viveport for HTC headsets. So, you press power on the computer, the operating system boots, auto-launches the home app (which headset and appstore makers aren't going to give up making), and you put on the headset and go. You don't actually use Windows at any time.

But there's no "path" for Apple to lay out in this. VR is not just a desktop operating system in 3d, the very concept of standardised UI elements and behaviours, so central to Apple's entire history, simply has no equivalent in VR. Every app is a self contained universe. There's no standard controls, no standard UI elements, nothing of Apple's DNA in creating unified, standardised experiences is applicable to VR as a computing platform.

If you think there's something Apple can contribute here, I'm all ears, because I'm using this stuff to do work, and I can't see it. I've messed around in Gravity Sketch, and logged a fair bit of time now in Tiltbrush. The desktop operating system as we know it, simply has no applicability to a VR station.

My bet is that Apple VR/AR is meant for a daily computing duties and for a new kind of entertainment, and the real GPU power will be delivered from inside "the goggles". With Apple GPU.

That's a lot of handwaving and wishful thinking - it takes an Nvidia 1080ti to make a usable VR environment today. That's not because of inefficiency, that's just how much raw power is needed to do the work, and that is not anywhere near "enough" that someone would say "I wouldn't care to have more if it was available".

Paring them with an iToy, AppleTV and/or a Mac will create a new kind of tool. Mac will create the 3D user interface, that is attached to the AR world within the goggles. With low latency, ProMotion, FaceID tech expanded to a greater scale and highly sophisticated sensors it will be totally different experience than anything before.

None of these things you're talking about are answers to the problem of: How will Apple be able to drive a VR workspace, and get developers to write apps for it, when their hardware isn't capable of doing the job as well as Nvidia solutions.

Making OS's ready takes time. I believe that Metal was the first step. Now Apple is ready for next_step.

Metal is not going to make AMD or Apple GPU hardware outperform Nvidia hardware at generating VR workspaces.

Again, that's what this all comes back to - it's like saying Apple is going to make a great new platform for digital painting, with only greyscale displays.

Look at the way all the blogarati in the mac world gush over Retina, that they couldn't imagine anything more detestable than being forced to go back to non-retina displays - that level of advancement, every year or two, is where VR is going for the next decade. Do you think the people Apple wants to be Apple customers, are the sort of people who'll settle for secondrate viewports onto their VR workspaces, when the operating system is invisible?
 
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Right now all current offerings from Apple are relatively weak or weak or not suitable at all for VR.
Their systems are RAM limited, CPU limited, GPU limited, PCIe limited, almost all of them have heat dissipation problems (you know, shiny and slim design is the target) and all of them have limited expansion (only externally) and most of them are glued.

To go this route, their first step must be to present an all new Mac line, portables, desktops and workstations, that will have a 180º turn in design, expansion, size, thickness and of course they must have powerful internal components with proper ventilation.

Do they have the courage to do so?

They are really trapped into a corner (thermal or not), as they already have stated...
It's not possible to be a fashion model and a decathlon athlete at the same time.
 
Apple has lost it's footing in pro market anyway. They are probably gonna come up with something stupid given the "development time". Who the !@#$ needs development time if all they have to do is provide something we are all asking for: something versatile with lots of choices and future upgradability?

Guys, have no hope. We will probably see something proprietary, limited upgrade, inaccessible, and pretty.
 
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Literally, all Apple users I have spoken to recently have had enough and won't be buying Apple again. Most of these people are friends and family using iphones and ipads, they all say that there are better cost effective options available and newcomers, like Huawei.

Apple relied for many years on us old Mac users, designers, content creators, video editors and musicians, etc, who would regularly recommend Apple products to friends and family, these people had a good deal of influence in their social groups.

Apple's glory days are now well and truly over, Apple hasn't realised that by pissing off their prime Mac users and pandering to the people who buy a phone mostly because of the colour or the animated emojis that they have stranded themselves on very thin ice.
 
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Literally, all Apple users I have spoken to recently have had enough and won't be buying Apple again.
One "bleeds in six colors" guy in our office just had his MacBook Pro upgraded to the latest one. He likes the new color, but hates the keyboard and feel. Yesterday on the way home he stopped by one of the many Apple stores here for a power brick for home.

This morning he was furious that the latest power bricks don't come with a cable, and he had to pay separately for a cable to connect the brick to the laptop. Furious.

"Death by a thousand cuts" seems to be the amigos' approach to their customers.
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does anyone tried to buy an 32core Epyc CPU and a 24core Xeon gold lately? which is selling faster ... [thats said all]
Wow, at this rate in a few months fewer than 7 out of 8 CPUs sold will be Intel.
 
On the VR stuff:

I don’t think this will be a big WWDC. Those with big expectations will probably be disappointed.
 
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On the VR stuff:

I don’t think this will be a big WWDC. Those with big expectations will probably be disappointed.

kremlinology on Apple's WWDC art has never really produced anything from memory - what did the lame plan view of all the people walking around theme (from last year?) connote?
 
Btw, did anyone else thought, that the WWDC 2018 logo points out to 3D UI elements? Could the next macOS have an optional 3D user interface for VR/AR? That could be why it took so much time to design mMP, to wait the final specification of VR/AR requirements and all the features T3 (IoT transmitters and sensor readout) needs to have for them. Today we have just two VR ready Mac's (iMac Pro and iMac with 580 GPU). Perhaps at WWDC they'll release next gen iMac's and Mac Mini's with Intel EMIB and Vega and therefore most of the desktop will be VR ready (Apple standard). Most laptops will need eGPU. mMP is waiting for the next stable OS for VR to be released (10.14.3 minimum). For a full featured experience, T3 and dGPU are required.

Just some thoughts, nothing based on anything. :p

wwdcroundup.jpg
Apple doesn't even have the hardware to decently run 3D software. I don't think some wonderful powerful VR or AR hardware is going to magically appear from Apple. Either on the mobile OS or the MacOS.
 
Thank you for contributing to the VR/AR discussion.

Yes, trying to find something hidden in a WWDC logo can result similar outcome as does reading tea leaves.

I think one reason why there has been only mediocre or worse GPU's on Apple products are
a) to prevent CUDA taking over the "Pro Workflow" on Mac's
b) to not to give competitors an edge and change to take over AR/VR space on Apple platform
c) tcMP thermal design

And yes, Apple's own GPU solutions in iToy's have been pretty lame compared to best desktop offerings, and it could be, that with Dual A11X in the presumed goggles (one SoC per eye) just around 1000 GFLOPS of GPGPU power could be produced combined, which is like one 10th of 1080 Ti. But Apple has since A4 ARM integrated so many specialised co-processors on their Soc's to make the dud-ARM seem powerful that it could be the case in this matter as well. A11 has "neural engine" to perform up to 600 billion operations per second. Similar solutions might find their way to A12.

Anyway, reading the tea le... I mean WWDC logo, gave me a small hope, that Apple is pusing something new. Ten years ago it was iPhone, twenty years ago it was iMac. What is the next miracle product, that will surprise the whole industry?
 
I don’t think this will be a big WWDC. Those with big expectations will probably be disappointed.
Beside more AR/VR/ML stuff this WWDC my espectations about hardware are:
  1. All New Macbook Pros, or at least a meaningful update, new keyboards (water/dust proof), maybe FaceID instead touchID 6 cores + Vega (Kaby Lake G), and at last 32GB ram BTO option, also discrete ssd should comeback to the macbook, but still propietary.
  2. Updated/New iMac/iMac Pro, besides updated CPUs (maybe AMD) a new glass sandwich body, optional expensive Magic keyboard with touchbar and maybe integrated magic touchpad.
  3. new Apple Pods, cheaper maybe with display
  4. iPhone SE2, new iPad Pros with FaceID and no home button, with a notch ? who knows, new Pencil too.
this should be all the "mandatory" hardware announcements.

on the software side, I'd like to see official support for Vulkan, nut likely they will introduce an open multi-platform Metal 3 trying to ransome developers which dont want to re-code again their graphical apps.

more foreseeable improvements to Siri AI and API for 3rd party, with features like object recognition available for the apps integrating Siri shared AI (Siri pre-made AI skills as API service, no ML training required).

ahh and maybe a sneakpeek on the mMP.
 
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I've been a Mac Pro guy since my first Power Mac G4 back in 2000. It's like watching a good friend die right in front of you and you can't save them. There is a part of me that still hopes that Apple releases a great Pro desktop again, but I know they won't, because they would've done something 4-5 years ago if it really mattered to them.

I'm fairly certain that the line about an all new modular pro desktop was uttered to divert the attention off the subject of the lack of updates, so they could let the product line die on the vine a couple years later. Kind of sucks, but it is what it is.
 
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All New Macbook Pros, or at least a meaningful update, new keyboards (water/dust proof), maybe FaceID instead touchID 6 cores + Vega (Kaby Lake G), and at last 32GB ram BTO option, also discrete ssd should comeback to the macbook, but still propietary.

I'm going to predict no. Most MacBook Pro upgrade rumors have been spitballed for later in the year.

Updated/New iMac/iMac Pro, besides updated CPUs (maybe AMD) a new glass sandwich body, optional expensive Magic keyboard with touchbar and maybe integrated magic touchpad.

Probably a no again.

Heard that a standalone Magic Keyboard is not happening in the near future.

iPhone SE2, new iPad Pros with FaceID and no home button, with a notch ? who knows, new Pencil too.

This gets a maybe. It's the most realistic out of all of these, and these have already leaked.

on the software side, I'd like to see official support for Vulkan, nut likely they will introduce an open multi-platform Metal 3 trying to ransome developers which dont want to re-code again their graphical apps.

Big "not happening."
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I think you're missing a fundamental problem - macOS, because of Apple's reliance on AMD hardware, does not have access to the graphics hardware necessary to generate the VR workspaces where Pro app work will be done.

AMD hardware isn't the problem. It's which hardware Apple chooses to put on their Macs.

They could put Vega on the regular iMacs, which would go a long ways to solving these problems. But they choose not to.
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Anyway, reading the tea le... I mean WWDC logo, gave me a small hope, that Apple is pusing something new. Ten years ago it was iPhone, twenty years ago it was iMac. What is the next miracle product, that will surprise the whole industry?

A new Mac Mini? I mean... the bar is pretty low right now...

I'm not sure why anyone who has been following Apple for the last 5 years has high expectations for anything.

I mean how long did it take them to add a numpad to their Bluetooth keyboard.
 
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I'm going to predict no. Most MacBook Pro upgrade rumors have been spitballed for later in the year.
Actually this one is the most likely prediction, MBP issues had Apple cornered, its know they where working on a water-dust proof butterfly kbd.) add to this pressure the MBP are the top selling macs by far.

Denials seek to sell current MBP inventory (now on rebate 450$ less) ... so where you bet your eggs ? on the MBP or the iPad Pro with FaceID ?
 
Beside more AR/VR/ML stuff this WWDC my espectations about hardware are:
  1. All New Macbook Pros, or at least a meaningful update, new keyboards (water/dust proof), maybe FaceID instead touchID 6 cores + Vega (Kaby Lake G), and at last 32GB ram BTO option, also discrete ssd should comeback to the macbook, but still propietary.
  2. Updated/New iMac/iMac Pro, besides updated CPUs (maybe AMD) a new glass sandwich body, optional expensive Magic keyboard with touchbar and maybe integrated magic touchpad.
  3. new Apple Pods, cheaper maybe with display
  4. iPhone SE2, new iPad Pros with FaceID and no home button, with a notch ? who knows, new Pencil too.
this should be all the "mandatory" hardware announcements.

on the software side, I'd like to see official support for Vulkan, nut likely they will introduce an open multi-platform Metal 3 trying to ransome developers which dont want to re-code again their graphical apps.

more foreseeable improvements to Siri AI and API for 3rd party, with features like object recognition available for the apps integrating Siri shared AI (Siri pre-made AI skills as API service, no ML training required).

ahh and maybe a sneakpeek on the mMP.
As if! Love to see an update on the nMP, but I'm not holding my breathe.
 
I'm fairly certain that the line about an all new modular pro desktop was uttered to divert the attention off the subject of the lack of updates, so they could let the product line die on the vine a couple years later. Kind of sucks, but it is what it is.

The pessimist in me agrees with this notion. A 'slow death' PR 'sweep under the rug' maneuver.

Denials seek to sell current MBP inventory (now on rebate 450$ less) ... so where you bet your eggs ? on the MBP or the iPad Pro with FaceID ?

I hate FaceID.. too Orwellian for me. Opted for the Iphooey8 instead of the IphooeyX because of that. These are BS vanity 'innovations', like the touchbar. They are not designed to solve issues, but rather make 'special kids' feel more 'special' ( here comes another censure :| ). Maybe on the side, the data collected can build upon some big set they can crunch and exploit for tertiary income (faceid)

Apple has jumped the shark.
 
AMD hardware isn't the problem. It's which hardware Apple chooses to put on their Macs.

They could put Vega on the regular iMacs, which would go a long ways to solving these problems. But they choose not to.

No, AMD hardware IS the problem - Full-fat Vega 64 is the best AMD has to offer for VR applications, and it's the equivalent of a regular 1080, so frankly, below table stakes for any sort of serious VR. Over on Nvidia's side of the fence, above the best you can get from AMD, you have 1080ti, Titan XP and Titan V (if you want to go nuts).
 
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