Mac Pro's FirePro and Gaming?

[Radiating]

Way to use a qualifier to stack the truth on one side. How's'about we compare Dual to Dual?

For LESS THAN $2,000 you can get Dual GTX780s and an extra power supply for a 5,1. 2 780s trumps 2 D700s any day of the week, esp for gaming. Do you suppose those D700s will be more or less than $2K?

And please show us the game that can use slower 12 core to beat a hex running a higher clock?

Crysis3 ?

BF4?

Which one?

I'm sorry, I don't see any truth in your PR quote.

The new MacPro will be the fastest mass produced computer that money can buy.

I'm sure that you can do all kinds of amazing things with a custom build, or something from low production run manufacturer, and I'm sure that everyone shopping for the new Mac Pro who would care about that is 100% aware that they can get something better for less money by building it themselves, or going to a specialty builder.

The new Mac Pro's customers are going to be people who want a small power efficient mass produced computer with a warranty from one of the biggest companies and are not interested in slapping something together themselves. Otherwise they will have already purchased their dream computer from one of the many available options.

 

[Derpage]

The new MacPro will be the fastest mass produced computer that money can buy.

I'm sure that you can do all kinds of amazing things with a custom build, or something from low production run manufacturer, and I'm sure that everyone shopping for the new Mac Pro who would care about that is 100% aware that they can get something better for less money by building it themselves, or going to a specialty builder.

The new Mac Pro's customers are going to be people who want a small power efficient mass produced computer with a warranty from one of the biggest companies and are not interested in slapping something together themselves. Otherwise they will have already purchased their dream computer from one of the many available options.

LoL. Slapping two cards in the pcie slots hardly qualifies as custom. This thread would not exist if people were 100% aware that they can get something better for cheaper. Most parts/computers have a warranty (it's 2013).

 

[MacVidCards]

The new MacPro will be the fastest mass produced computer that money can buy.

I'm sure that you can do all kinds of amazing things with a custom build, or something from low production run manufacturer, and I'm sure that everyone shopping for the new Mac Pro who would care about that is 100% aware that they can get something better for less money by building it themselves, or going to a specialty builder.

The new Mac Pro's customers are going to be people who want a small power efficient mass produced computer with a warranty from one of the biggest companies and are not interested in slapping something together themselves. Otherwise they will have already purchased their dream computer from one of the many available options.

You need some peppy music with that. Some exciting graphics, great spot.

 

[mrhick01]

LoL. Slapping two cards in the pcie slots hardly qualifies as custom. This thread would not exist if people were 100% aware that they can get something better for cheaper. Most parts/computers have a warranty (it's 2013).

When you start arguing the better for cheaper thing, it's a loser, particularly in a Mac-partisan forum.

It's a loser because better for cheaper does not run OS X.

This is what we're talking about here. Better but cheaper isn't going to appeal to all professionals, although some will be pulled away into Windows and Linux.

Better but cheaper isn't going to appeal to most prosumers. The tinkerers have built Hackintosh boxes anyway, and I guess they like tweaking drivers and kext files.

 

[slughead]

The new Mac Pro's customers are going to be people who want a small power efficient mass produced computer with a warranty from one of the biggest companies and are not interested in slapping something together themselves. Otherwise they will have already purchased their dream computer from one of the many available options.

- Power efficient : Really? Moreso than the same components in a different box?
- Warranty : Building your own computer will get you much better warranties - longer, anyway

 

[Radiating]

LoL. Slapping two cards in the pcie slots hardly qualifies as custom. This thread would not exist if people were 100% aware that they can get something better for cheaper. Most parts/computers have a warranty (it's 2013).

Slapping video cards into an older Mac Pro makes warranties more complicated. To warranty the machine you'd have to swap back the stock video card, and then on top of that you have to deal with actually getting the video card to work, which may involve custom EFI roms and risking burning out the power supply at your expense (for example this power supply risk is an issue if you want to run a Titan in a 5,1 Mac Pro, which I would like to do).

I've built dozens of custom computers before with insane specs, my last one had a 20GB Ram Disk, and a hybrid peltier liquid cooling system, among other extreme components. I couldn't use it for 2 months due to a bad ASUS mobo and having to troubleshoot almost every component to find the source of the problem.

I didn't even bother sending the mobo to the manufacturer when I figured out that was the source of the problem, I just tossed it into the trash and got a new part by next day air.

Even a few weeks of down time in the span of several years would cost me way more than the price difference of the new Mac Pro compared to any cheaper alternative. My local Apple store guarantees 7 day repairs for me or they will give me a replacement computer, that's worth 10 times the cost of any mark up.

 

[goMac]

Because we're also talking about card upgradability, here's what I was told several months ago and feel better mentioning now:
- The Mac Pro's cards are removable (which I think we all know)
- When I asked it the Mac Pro's cards would be upgradable, I was told Apple would have more to discuss on that later (which I admit could be never.)

My best guess:
- The cards in the Mac Pro are probably intended to be upgradable, but they're likely thermal pasted directly to the thermal core, which means Apple wouldn't consider them user replaceable.
- Apple will probably offer upgrade cards at some point, but an upgrade will probably require taking the machine into an Apple Store, or having an Apple Certified Technician do the transplant.

My read is that Apple seems to be aware people want GPU upgrades, and they're not stupid, but it could be the mechanics of making that happen are more complicated. If you're a pro though, having the swap done by Apple probably wouldn't be a deal breaker though, considering the audience of the Mac Pro. It does mean your Nvidia card selection would be more limited, but because of Apple's backing of OpenCL, I think that is one place they don't care.

 

[MacVidCards]

Because we're also talking about card upgradability, here's what I was told several months ago and feel better mentioning now:
- The Mac Pro's cards are removable (which I think we all know)
- When I asked it the Mac Pro's cards would be upgradable, I was told Apple would have more to discuss on that later (which I admit could be never.)

My best guess:
- The cards in the Mac Pro are probably intended to be upgradable, but they're likely thermal pasted directly to the thermal core, which means Apple wouldn't consider them user replaceable.
- Apple will probably offer upgrade cards at some point, but an upgrade will probably require taking the machine into an Apple Store, or having an Apple Certified Technician do the transplant.

My read is that Apple seems to be aware people want GPU upgrades, and they're not stupid, but it could be the mechanics of making that happen are more complicated. If you're a pro though, having the swap done by Apple probably wouldn't be a deal breaker though, considering the audience of the Mac Pro. It does mean your Nvidia card selection would be more limited, but because of Apple's backing of OpenCL, I think that is one place they don't care.

And yet their marketing PR says "And blew away limitation after limitation. "

Actions vs words.

 

[goMac]

And yet their marketing PR says "And blew away limitation after limitation. "

Actions vs words.

My best guess is from Apple's perspective they were never big on the non-Apple GPU market anyway, so to them there is no regression.

I could see them offering more choice at some point, but I think they'll be the ones doing the actual swap in the future, if they offer that.

If you're a serious pro, installing yourself vs. having Apple do it probably is not a huge deal. And for larger institutions they either have an Applecare certified person on site already, or they could get Apple to swing by and do it for them (I've worked places that have had several thousand machine Apple house calls before.)

 

[MacVidCards]

My best guess is from Apple's perspective they were never big on the non-Apple GPU market anyway, so to them there is no regression.

I could see them offering more choice at some point, but I think they'll be the ones doing the actual swap in the future, if they offer that.

If you're a serious pro, installing yourself vs. having Apple do it probably is not a huge deal. And for larger institutions they either have an Applecare certified person on site already, or they could get Apple to swing by and do it for them (I've worked places that have had several thousand machine Apple house calls before.)

Still sounds like a fleet of limitations that got added while they were "blowing away" the other ones.

I'm trying to figure out what those are, actually.

 

[goMac]

Still sounds like a fleet of limitations that got added while they were "blowing away" the other ones.

I'm trying to figure out what those are, actually.

Having Thunderbolt with channel bonding is pretty nifty. Gives you a lot more expansion over PCI-E, just in the number of cards you could attach. You could even do things like RAID PCI-E SATA cards which the old Mac Pro wouldn't have enough physical space to do.

With channel bonding there is a chance you could run an external GPU at full performance, even.

 

[MacVidCards]

Having Thunderbolt with channel bonding is pretty nifty. Gives you a lot more expansion over PCI-E, just in the number of cards you could attach.

With channel bonding there is a chance you could run an external GPU at full performance, even.

If you use all 3 controllers and can actually bond them with no losses to overhead, you get 3/4 of the bandwidth from a 2008 Mac Pro using one of it's 2 available x16 slots.

Would require a mid range card to not be throttled, and you couldn't have anything else on TB that used bandwidth. 3 TB cords going to a pricy (and not invented yet) box. You would also have to disconnect all external drives if you wanted the full 3/4 of the 2008's bandwidth.

Do you REALLY want to go on record saying that isn't a limitation?

 

[goMac]

If you use all 3 controllers and can actually bond them with no losses to overhead, you get 3/4 of the bandwidth from a 2008 Mac Pro using one of it's 2 available x16 slots.

Would require a mid range card to not be throttled, and you couldn't have anything else on TB that used bandwidth. 3 TB cords going to a pricy (and not invented yet) box. You would also have to disconnect all external drives if you wanted the full 3/4 of the 2008's bandwidth.

Do you REALLY want to go on record saying that isn't a limitation?

Most cards are designed to run perfectly fine in a x8 configuration. You could even go down to x4 with some, but not significant loses.

Because the processing happens on the card itself, and that processing doesn't require a constant connection with the computer, the bandwidth limitation is less severe, especially if the cards have a large amount of VRAM. Certain tasks (such as video processing) could strain that bandwidth, so some of it goes back to the use case. If you're a gamer, though, 4x or 8x should be perfectly usable.

Regarding the internal cards, I have a hunch (no sources) that Apple might be inclined to over clock those. Apple hasn't posted a clock speed, and that's one heck of a cooler they're bolted to...

 

[MatthewAMEL]

If you use all 3 controllers and can actually bond them with no losses to overhead, you get 3/4 of the bandwidth from a 2008 Mac Pro using one of it's 2 available x16 slots.

Would require a mid range card to not be throttled, and you couldn't have anything else on TB that used bandwidth. 3 TB cords going to a pricy (and not invented yet) box. You would also have to disconnect all external drives if you wanted the full 3/4 of the 2008's bandwidth.

Do you REALLY want to go on record saying that isn't a limitation?

Please stop.

The difference between x4 and x16 isn't even 10% on a high-end GPU.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5458/the-radeon-hd-7970-reprise-pcie-bandwidth-overclocking-and-msaa

Can you show actual benchmarks that support your claim the nMP/TB2 is a magnitude of order slower?

Wait...no, you can't because you don't have a nMP and a external TB2 chassis to throw a Titan in and test.

 

[MacVidCards]

Most cards are designed to run perfectly fine in a x8 configuration. You could even go down to x4 with some, but not significant loses.

Because the processing happens on the card itself, and that processing doesn't require a constant connection with the computer, the bandwidth limitation is less severe, especially if the cards have a large amount of VRAM. Certain tasks (such as video processing) could strain that bandwidth, so some of it goes back to the use case. If you're a gamer, though, 4x or 8x should be perfectly usable.

Regarding the internal cards, I have a hunch (no sources) that Apple might be inclined to over clock those. Apple hasn't posted a clock speed, and that's one heck of a cooler they're bolted to...

OK, I see now.

Running things at a fraction of their designed bus speed isn't a "limitation", it's a "feature" !!!

Got it.

Curious how the listed 450 Watt TDP is going to work with over clocked GPUs. I guess you could always crank the CPU down to 300 Mhz.

 

[Radiating]

If you use all 3 controllers and can actually bond them with no losses to overhead, you get 3/4 of the bandwidth from a 2008 Mac Pro using one of it's 2 available x16 slots.

Would require a mid range card to not be throttled, and you couldn't have anything else on TB that used bandwidth. 3 TB cords going to a pricy (and not invented yet) box. You would also have to disconnect all external drives if you wanted the full 3/4 of the 2008's bandwidth.

Do you REALLY want to go on record saying that isn't a limitation?

In every single post you make you go out of your way to bash the new machine , on every single detail. If they made a special purple one you'd be complaining about the color. You continually post ridiculously hyperbolic criticisms of every conceivable aspect of the machine. If Apple released a machine that had literally infinite specs, printed money, granted wishes and was free, but it's only limitation was that it didn't accept MacVidCars video cards as upgrades, you'd be complaining 10 times per day about anything you could possibly criticize it on.

The new Mac Pro is an amazing machine and a world class move forward in computers. It's great that you're going to be critical about every possible problem you can think of, because that just makes smart people want to buy it more.

The fact is I could not possibly care less about the expandability of the new machine. It's a computer, and it computes well, and that's all I want and need

Also, for the record the new Mac Pro has 2 PCIe 3.0 x16 slots (which are twice as fast), and 3 PCIe 2.0 x4 slots and 5 PCIe mini slots for storage and wifi. The old one had 2 PCIe 2.0 x16 slots, and 1 PCIe 2.0 x4 slot shared between slots 3 & 4.

The new machine blows the old machine out the water in PCIe bandwidth.

 

[MacVidCards]

In every single post you make you go out of your way to bash the new machine , on every single detail.

Someone has to counter hyperbolic nonsense like:

"The new MacPro will be the fastest mass produced computer that money can buy. "

When there are many websites full of machines that will run rings around the single 2697v2. Like one that can hold 2 of same chip. Or do you consider Dell a boutique hand made machine? Otherwise it's mass produced and the statement is balderdash. Say what you like, my posts aren't full of hooey like that tripe.

The new machine blows the old machine out the water in PCIe bandwidth.

As it would be expected to, being 4 + years newer.

Pity that buyers have little access to any of it. Nice knowing it's walled up inside though. Should keep you warm at night knowing it's there.

----------

Please stop.

The difference between x4 and x16 isn't even 10% on a high-end GPU.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5458/the-radeon-hd-7970-reprise-pcie-bandwidth-overclocking-and-msaa

Can you show actual benchmarks that support your claim the nMP/TB2 is a magnitude of order slower?

Wait...no, you can't because you don't have a nMP and a external TB2 chassis to throw a Titan in and test.

Why yes actually. I took the time to do so.

Have you?

I demonstrated by putting cards in x4 slot. A single card takes a hit, multi cards take a bigger hit.

 

[LongSticks]

Let's try another angle

Someone has to counter hyperbolic nonsense like:

"The new MacPro will be the fastest mass produced computer that money can buy. "

When there are many websites full of machines that will run rings around the single 2697v2. Like one that can hold 2 of same chip. Or do you consider Dell a boutique hand made machine? Otherwise it's mass produced and the statement is balderdash. Say what you like, my posts aren't full of hooey like that tripe.



As it would be expected to, being 4 + years newer.

Pity that buyers have little access to any of it. Nice knowing it's walled up inside though. Should keep you warm at night knowing it's there.

----------



Why yes actually. I took the time to do so.

Have you?

I demonstrated by putting cards in x4 slot. A single card takes a hit, multi cards take a bigger hit.

Taking on Radiatings point of Mass produced. Yes I agree that there are websites were you can order far superior machines, but they are websites and I'm not aware of any that are quoting 24hrs delivery for a Xeon 2 card workstation, indicating that they are Mass Produced and sat on a shelf.

If you take a base T3600 and bring the specs (to make it comparable) up to the entry nMP the shipping date slips from 1 week to a preliminary date of 1 week. Hence BTO.

Now I assume that the quad and hex core systems currently quoted on the Apple store are there non BTO. You have always been able to walk into any Apple store or reseller and pick one up there and then.....and surely by definition this has to be Mass Produced? No? So this probably will be the fastest Mass Produced machine!

I would say, certainly in the UK this will easily be the most powerful machine that you can by on the high street first thing on a Monday morning.

I have an upgrade path to hex core nMP in the middle of next year. I'm only waiting to see what Autodesk are doing with there 2015 software and whether they finally go multi core with there software.

Lastly, I do feel the pain in your posts over the lack of internal upgradability. I know for most current MP users on the forums this has always been the main function of there machines. But you have to face the fact that it has gone! Also though, with your vast knowledge on the MP, I think you will be busy as hell in Jan when the nMP upgraders old MP's hit ebay both on the forums and professionally!

A lot of us consumers & prosumers are going to be coming to the MP via the nMP for the first time because of the form factor. I went from PC to iMac due to the form factor and it's been everything I required. I for one would really appreciate these nMP posts from people enquiring about peoples thoughts and feelings over the new machines not becoming slanging matches about what was and what should have been. It's getting really tedious and distracting.

 

[MatthewAMEL]

Why yes actually. I took the time to do so.

Have you?

I demonstrated by putting cards in x4 slot. A single card takes a hit, multi cards take a bigger hit.

That's great! Can you post your results so the rest of us can get a sense of the epic screw job Apple is trying to foist on the Pro community?

Who's TB enclosure did you use for the GPU?

Did you use the same GPU and just move it from TB chassis to internal PCIe?

 

[MacVidCards]

Posted weeks ago here

 

[iBug2]

LoL. Slapping two cards in the pcie slots hardly qualifies as custom. This thread would not exist if people were 100% aware that they can get something better for cheaper. Most parts/computers have a warranty (it's 2013).

Building and using a hackintosh is certainly not for everyone. If you think it is, you are delusional.

 

[caneman]

Building and using a hackintosh is certainly not for everyone. If you think it is, you are delusional.

Exactly. Don't want a hackintosh, don't want windows, want the fastest Mac possible for gaming. Waiting to see if nMP is it. If so ... I'm buying.

 

[Radiating]

(snip)

I would say, certainly in the UK this will easily be the most powerful machine that you can by on the high street first thing on a Monday morning.

(snip)

A lot of us consumers & prosumers are going to be coming to the MP via the nMP for the first time because of the form factor. I went from PC to iMac due to the form factor and it's been everything I required. I for one would really appreciate these nMP posts from people enquiring about peoples thoughts and feelings over the new machines not becoming slanging matches about what was and what should have been. It's getting really tedious and distracting.

Agreed. Like I said earlier I don't think that anybody who's buying the New Mac Pro will not be perfectly aware that there are alternatives which are faster, cheaper, and more expandable.

The people buying the New Mac Pro are NOT interested in low prices, they are NOT interested in maximum possible speed, and they are NOT interested in expansion.

Here are the options you basically have in this segement:

Professional Workstation:

Warranty: Average (3+ week turn around, on site support, 2+ week replacement machines)
Form Factor: Extremely Large
Maxium Speed: High Processor, Medium Graphics
Expandability: Average
Price: High
Resale Value: Low
Availability: 1+ week

Custom Self-Built Computer:

Warranty: Little to None (Warranty on parts, not on troubleshooting or service 2+ month repairs not uncommon)
Form Factor: Medium
Maximum Speed: Insane
Expandability: Perfect
Price: Low
Resale Value: Medium+
Availability: 1 week + build time (weeks-months)

Boutique Manufacturer Computer:

Warranty: Low-Medium (Companies go out of business constantly, little infrastructure)
Form Factor: Medium-Extremely Large
Maximum Speed: Insane
Expandability: Perfect
Price: High-Very High
Resale Value: Low
Availability: 2-8 weeks

New Mac Pro

Warranty: Perfect
Form Factor: Very Small
Maximum Speed: High
Expandability: Low
Price: High
Resale Value: Medium
Availability: Immediate


The New Mac Pro is the only high speed computer that has immediate availability, a perfect warranty program, or a small form factor. It will also maintain resale value better than anything except custom built, because of it's proprietary components. All the other options go to their component cost on the second hand market, but with proprietary components you'll do between slightly and significantly better.

 

[deconstruct60]

Most cards are designed to run perfectly fine in a x8 configuration. You could even go down to x4 with some, but not significant loses.
...

Small losses are still a trade off. What is flawed is the notion that there are no trade offs being made in any of the design. They all have trade offs.
"Limitations" in the context that Apple is using the word has far more do due with not letting things get in the way of the design goals. That is quite far from we didn't have to come up with a fixed list of design goals ( it is a do everything for everybody system. None of the Mac Pros have been. )

Regarding the internal cards, I have a hunch (no sources) that Apple might be inclined to over clock those. Apple hasn't posted a clock speed, and that's one heck of a cooler they're bolted to...

Given Apple gimped the system with a 450W power supply that is highly doubtful ( overclocking). The cooler has three sides. If you only look at one side it is one heck of a cooler. If take into account all three sides then for the most part it is sufficient. ( and not so sufficient on the 2.7GHz 12 core + dual D700 configuration ). If only one of the three sides is depositing maximum thermal load it will work pretty well. The systems is designed for dynamic, not static, 3 source workloads.

 

[MacVidCards]

Given Apple gimped the system with a 450W power supply that is highly doubtful ( overclocking). The cooler has three sides. If you only look at one side it is one heck of a cooler. If take into account all three sides then for the most part it is sufficient. ( and not so sufficient on the 2.7GHz 12 core + dual D700 configuration ). If only one of the three sides is depositing maximum thermal load it will work pretty well. The systems is designed for dynamic, not static, 3 source workloads.

Yes, I felt the same thought when I read something Apple wrote about "when one component isn't using all if it's thermal headroom, another one can take advantage and use more." Sounds like the 12 core with Dual 700s will be like 3 dogs leashed to each other. Only one can have free reign. The three components SHOULD add up to 670-680 watts, too much for a 450 watt PSU and cooling system.

Looking forward to benchmarks vs Dual 5690s with a couple 7970s or dual 780ti s. Will show many things.