Mac Pro's FirePro and Gaming?

[deconstruct60]

Yes, I felt the same thought when I read something Apple wrote about "when one component isn't using all if it's thermal headroom, another one can take advantage and use more." Sounds like the 12 core with Dual 700s will be like 3 dogs leashed to each other. Only one can have free reign.

If Apple did "innovation through big data analysis of real world thermal profiles" then it won't be an overall bad call. If some wonk at Apple pulled at 450W power supply out and said "this is a big as you get because we're not buying bigger and not more than one fan" then the "shared by 3" is far more so just a kludge than innovation.

All the smack talking Apple is doing " not innovative my ass" .... " and "... then kicks the living $#&% out of it. ..." ( and the one they seemed to have dropped now since it was so blatantly false " Thunderbolt is the fastest, most versatile I/O technology there is " ) seems to weight the probability slightly higher onto the second notion.

Looking forward to benchmarks vs Dual 5690s with a couple 7970s or dual 780ti s. Will show many things.

systems that throw twice the power budget at computation are probably going to turn in larger overall numbers. That won't be surprising at all. The consumers cards are likely to come in cheaper too (because they are).

Overall system performance per Watt and per dollar probably are the only unknowns.

 

[MacVidCards]

systems that throw twice the power budget at computation are probably going to turn in larger overall numbers. That won't be surprising at all. The consumers cards are likely to come in cheaper too (because they are).

Overall system performance per Watt and per dollar probably are the only unknowns.

I was doing Crossfire testing with 2 @ 7970 yesterday, they started howling like twin banshees during "valley" test. I was wondering how they are going to cool similar load AND a 12 core CPU all at once using single fan.

If older 12 core truly faster they will have some 'splainin' to do.

Innovation should improve product, primary measure of computer is speed through workload. If all the innovation doesn't make it any faster it is going to be a tough sell.

 

[bobhope]

doh.

Xeon E7 PC out now, QUAD overclocked TITAN and capable Gpu mobo. 64gb of now capable super Over Clocked RAM. Super effcient new form of cooling. Ultra SSD's with most mobo's now bypassing bios boot. UPGRADE when I WANT! HOW I WANT! (yes capitals for a reason). Dont forget to a buy a duster for the shiny new machine.

 

[LongSticks]

Xeon E7 PC out now, QUAD overclocked TITAN and capable Gpu mobo. 64gb of now capable super Over Clocked RAM. Super effcient new form of cooling. Ultra SSD's with most mobo's now bypassing bios boot. UPGRADE when I WANT! HOW I WANT! (yes capitals for a reason). Dont forget to a buy a duster for the shiny new machine.

Where and how much?

 

[Dranix]

I wouldn't consider the D300s as a gaming option.

Why not? 7870 is not bad for playing...

 

[Cubemmal]

I was doing Crossfire testing with 2 @ 7970 yesterday, they started howling like twin banshees during "valley" test. I was wondering how they are going to cool similar load AND a 12 core CPU all at once using single fan.

If older 12 core truly faster they will have some 'splainin' to do.

The cooling solution for regular video cards is hardly ideal, the air in the back of the computer is warm due to the exhaust, as is the air inside the case, and the small fan is pulling horizontally. The PC is a mess frankly and the old MP isn't better. Fans everywhere pulling and pushing air this way and that.

While we obviously haven't seen it, from a physics standpoint (my degrees are in physics) the nMP design is ideal. An enormous ~9" fan which pulls air from the bottom and exist out the top. All industrial cooling systems (for HVAC or liquid nitrogen storage tanks) have this design for good reason. So it's entirely possible that it can handle the load, and given that the Apple engineers and management aren't idiots it's a given.

 

[Gav Mack]

Mac Pro's FirePro and Gaming?

The cooling solution for regular video cards is hardly ideal, the air in the back of the computer is warm due to the exhaust, as is the air inside the case, and the small fan is pulling horizontally. The PC is a mess frankly and the old MP isn't better. Fans everywhere pulling and pushing air this way and that.

While we obviously haven't seen it, from a physics standpoint (my degrees are in physics) the nMP design is ideal. An enormous ~9" fan which pulls air from the bottom and exist out the top. All industrial cooling systems (for HVAC or liquid nitrogen storage tanks) have this design for good reason. So it's entirely possible that it can handle the load, and given that the Apple engineers and management aren't idiots it's a given.

Even though it's totally not a one box solution which I prefer but the core design itself is going to change things very soon. New standards of mobo and GPU boards around a standardised 3 bay thermal core and PSU. More bays - bigger hex core. Add an expansion box to hold your stuff and that does sound like an interesting future in computer design for desktops, servers, render farms..

Oh no, I've given MiJuConcept some fire..

 

[goMac]

Even though it's totally not a one box solution which I prefer but the core design itself is going to change things very soon. New standards of mobo and GPU boards around a standardised 3 bay thermal core and PSU. More bays - bigger hex core. Add an expansion box to hold your stuff and that does sound like an interesting future in computer design for desktops, servers, render farms..

Oh no, I've given MiJuConcept some fire..

I'm still convinced (although I've got no inside info here) that all the cards will be replaceable. Want a new CPU? Replace the entire board, which now just pops out without taking apart half the machine. No socket or revision or firmware problems. In a lot of ways, that would make the new Mac Pro much more upgradable than the old one.

(Yeah, you'd have to deal with the thermal paste, but I could see Apple doing the upgrade as a service, for a pretty penny, but less than what you'd pay for a new machine.)

 

[Cubemmal]

I'm still convinced (although I've got no inside info here) that all the cards will be replaceable. Want a new CPU? Replace the entire board, which now just pops out without taking apart half the machine. No socket or revision or firmware problems. In a lot of ways, that would make the new Mac Pro much more upgradable than the old one.

(Yeah, you'd have to deal with the thermal paste, but I could see Apple doing the upgrade as a service, for a pretty penny, but less than what you'd pay for a new machine.)

It will be replaceable for service obviously, but AFAIK Apple has never offered non BTO internal hardware upgrades. Extremely doubtful they'll start now, and surely they would have trumpeted that already.

They seem very confident of this, so either it is blazing crazy fast, cool and quiet or they know something else.

 

[goMac]

It will be replaceable for service obviously, but AFAIK Apple has never offered non BTO internal hardware upgrades. Extremely doubtful they'll start now, and surely they would have trumpeted that already.

They seem very confident of this, so either it is blazing crazy fast, cool and quiet or they know something else.

Sure they do. Both the Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro have had after-purchase upgrades in store (stuff like drives and GPUs), but you're right, a main board upgrade would be new.

 

[Cubemmal]

Sure they do. Both the Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro have had after-purchase upgrades in store (stuff like drives and GPUs), but you're right, a main board upgrade would be new.

The MBP never offered an in-store upgrade to the GPU. That would entail an entire motherboard replacement, CPU, logic board and everything. I'm quite sure you're wrong on this one unless you can provide us a link to the Apple site showing the details. Also for the drive, I did some searches and am not seeing anything that Apple offers upgrades.

They do offer service calls, in fact I had the motherboard of a 2011 MBP replaced due to a faulty TB connector. Guess what? I got the same chipset back, and they didn't offer me the option of an upgraded GPU along the way. For drives, I do know of Applecare cases where people got a higher capacity drive because the old one wasn't available anymore when it broke. Different case though.

Apple simply isn't interested or in the business of throwing different parts into an existing design, excepting RAM and drives. Oh that does remind me, what you may be thinking of is drives. If you buy an iMac or whatever and want to upgrade the hard drive, you can bring it into a store and pay them to do it for you. That's it - hard drive and memory, certainly not GPU or motherboard.

Obviously you could upgrade the old Mac Pro GPU but that's an entirely different situation, just being a standard PCIe card.

 

[Gav Mack]

I'm still convinced (although I've got no inside info here) that all the cards will be replaceable. Want a new CPU? Replace the entire board, which now just pops out without taking apart half the machine. No socket or revision or firmware problems. In a lot of ways, that would make the new Mac Pro much more upgradable than the old one.

(Yeah, you'd have to deal with the thermal paste, but I could see Apple doing the upgrade as a service, for a pretty penny, but less than what you'd pay for a new machine.)

I'm not actually looking at this through Mac Pro or even Apple eyes here, the overall superb efficiency of this thermal core design I'm more thinking about future design standardisation for PC's in general. I don't think it will be long before manufacturers are going to be proposing these new form factors which the Black Can has kicked off. Possibly not the same dimensions but definitely the same kind of principle.

 

[goMac]

The MBP never offered an in-store upgrade to the GPU. That would entail an entire motherboard replacement, CPU, logic board and everything. I'm quite sure you're wrong on this one unless you can provide us a link to the Apple site showing the details. Also for the drive, I did some searches and am not seeing anything that Apple offers upgrades.

The Mac Pro did. I said they offered in store upgrades on the MBP with Apple parts (RAM, hard disk, Airport, etc), but I never said they offered GPU upgrades on the MBP.

They do offer service calls, in fact I had the motherboard of a 2011 MBP replaced due to a faulty TB connector. Guess what? I got the same chipset back, and they didn't offer me the option of an upgraded GPU along the way. For drives, I do know of Applecare cases where people got a higher capacity drive because the old one wasn't available anymore when it broke. Different case though.

Never said they did upgrade GPUs on the MBP.

Apple simply isn't interested or in the business of throwing different parts into an existing design, excepting RAM and drives. Oh that does remind me, what you may be thinking of is drives. If you buy an iMac or whatever and want to upgrade the hard drive, you can bring it into a store and pay them to do it for you. That's it - hard drive and memory, certainly not GPU or motherboard.

They'll upgrade the GPU on an existing Mac Pro.

Obviously you could upgrade the old Mac Pro GPU

Mmmmhmmmmm.

but that's an entirely different situation, just being a standard PCIe card.

Yes and no. They've always been special PCI cards, with the special ROMs and all. The Mac Pro uses a different connector for the cards, but if you're Apple, does that really change anything? The Apple techs know how to replace thermal paste already. They can replace logic boards. I'm not sure why you think they couldn't replace a GPU cards, especially because the cards look to be meant to be removable from the case.

If Apple didn't care about GPU upgrades on the Mac Pro, then they wouldn't have made them available for existing Mac Pros in the first place.

 

[Derpage]

Yes and no. They've always been special PCI cards, with the special ROMs and all. The Mac Pro uses a different connector for the cards, but if you're Apple, does that really change anything? The Apple techs know how to replace thermal paste already. They can replace logic boards. I'm not sure why you think they couldn't replace a GPU cards, especially because the cards look to be meant to be removable from the case.

So now I pay somebody to do what I had just done for free?! SUPER STOKED BRO. CAN'T WAIT.

 

[Cubemmal]

Never said they did upgrade GPUs on the MBP

What? Check my post above, I quote you saying exactly that

Both the Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro have had after-purchase upgrades in store (stuff like drives and GPUs)

MBP=Mac Book Pro.

Regardless it sounds like you didn't mean what you said, and we agree that the Mac Pro offered GPU upgrades when it was a standard PCI card.

 

[goMac]

What? Check my post above, I quote you saying exactly that

MBP=Mac Book Pro.

Regardless it sounds like you didn't mean what you said, and we agree that the Mac Pro offered GPU upgrades when it was a standard PCI card.

I meant to give examples that applied to one or the other, not both. Sounds like I could have phrased it better.

 

[iMarvin]

Any news on this subject?

 

[slughead]

The Mac Pro when outfitted with dual W9000 cards will be the most powerful mass produced gaming computer on the face of the earth. For example the GeForce Titan does 68 FPS in Battlefield 3 @ 2560x1440 4x msaa high post ultra. The GeForce 690 does 94 FPS. Dual 7970 cards (consumer W9000) do 101 FPS.

This would be true, if crossfire is enabled -- which it probably isn't and will probably never be. The Tahiti-based cards (7970, W9000, D700) still require the Xfire bridge AFAIK and I don't believe anyone's confirmed the nMP has one yet.

If Crossfire is not enabled, you're limited to a fairly anemic underclocked 7970 --slower than the 2-year old version released in December 2011. Keep in mind this is the best video card option for the nMP, and you may never be able to upgrade it (or if you can, it'll be ridiculously expensive).

So the nMP is probably more of a mid-range gaming machine. Keep in mind what you'll be facing in 2 years: you'll have a 4 year old GPU which you likely wont be able to upgrade (or it'll be ridiculously expensive). This is akin to being stuck with a Radeon 5870 in 2013 (today).

 

[Rogier1991]

This would be true, if crossfire is enabled -- which it probably isn't and will probably never be. The Tahiti-based cards (7970, W9000, D700) still require the Xfire bridge AFAIK and I don't believe anyone's confirmed the nMP has one yet.

If Crossfire is not enabled, you're limited to a fairly anemic underclocked 7970 --slower than the 2-year old version released in December 2011. Keep in mind this is the best video card option for the nMP, and you may never be able to upgrade it (or if you can, it'll be ridiculously expensive).

So the nMP is probably more of a mid-range gaming machine. Keep in mind what you'll be facing in 2 years: you'll have a 4 year old GPU which you likely wont be able to upgrade (or it'll be ridiculously expensive). This is akin to being stuck with a Radeon 5870 in 2013 (today).

And the 27 inch iMac 780M will be better for gaming then?

 

[theSeb]

And the 27 inch iMac 780M will be better for gaming then?

No, we do not know anything for sure at this point in time. Do not take pure speculation as gospel.

 

[wildmac]

Exactly. Don't want a hackintosh, don't want windows, want the fastest Mac possible for gaming. Waiting to see if nMP is it. If so ... I'm buying.

Umm... what games? and at what performance level?

Let's be real here, most of the Mac games are not ones that the cutting edge of graphics and performance requirements.

If you really want gaming performance, build a hackintosh with a i7 and a GTX780 for ~$2k, and go on with that.

If you want a Mac that will do real work, plus gaming, then buy the hex-core with the D500s and don't worry about it.

 

[slughead]

And the 27 inch iMac 780M will be better for gaming then?

We don't know for sure yet. My guess is that the iMac may be a little better for gaming, given that the 780M is similar to a GTX 680, which is a bit better than a 7970 (the nMP with the D700 [best option] will likely be about as good as a single underclocked 7970 in terms of gaming). Let me reiterate though: We don't know for sure.

Edit:7970 is significantly faster than the 780M. We'll just have to see how underclocked the D700 is.

A 2010 Mac Pro Hexcore with a proper GTX780 (not "M") or a Radeon 290X will almost certainly blow away a nMP at most games though (again, given Xfire is not possible, which it likely isn't)

 

[Boomhowler]

We don't know for sure yet. My guess is that the iMac may be a little better for gaming, given that the 780M is similar to a GTX 680, which is a bit better than a 7970 (the nMP with the D700 [best option] will likely be about as good as a single underclocked 7970 in terms of gaming). Let me reiterate though: We don't know for sure.

A 2010 Mac Pro Hexcore with a proper GTX780 (not "M") or a Radeon 290X will almost certainly blow away a nMP at most games though (again, given Xfire is not possible, which it likely isn't)

Isn't the 780m closer to a 660? Looking at Nvidia's performance numbers from 3D Mark Vantage it seems so at least.

 

[DanielCoffey]

Given that the R9 290 AMD cards have done away with the physical Crossfire bridge and started passing the card communication through the PCI-e bus, isn't it a logical assumption to make that the nMP could have done the same thing?

 

[VoR]

Given that the R9 290 AMD cards have done away with the physical Crossfire bridge and started passing the card communication through the PCI-e bus, isn't it a logical assumption to make that the nMP could have done the same thing?

It's all proprietary stuff in the nMP, they could have easily bridged them.
The 290 cards are using amds latest hawaii chips, the d700 and equivalents are the older tahiti design.