The M2 Studio increased in price over the M1 in markets like Canada.
But keeping with US pricing, Apple almost always sticks to the same price points and have done so for 25+ years. Why would the Studio be an exception?
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Mac Studio Speculation [Merged]
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But keeping with US pricing, Apple almost always sticks to the same price points and have done so for 25+ years. Why would the Studio be an exception?
Eight reasons:
1 - Longer time between model upgrades - and new Studio in 6 months time
2 - Operating System has less duration than newer tech hardware (m1 looses support before M4, etc)
3 - Lack of upgradability means hardware devalues significantly relative to faster hardware (unlike a Mac Pro 7,1 tower which would still be valuable if Apple had promised to continue to support Intel CPUs and their architecture) but when Thunderbolt 5 arrives T3/4 machines will have inferior drive extendability than T-5 units.
4 - Value (see previous points) - M1 & M2 Studios with T4 will devalue hugely when M4 (or M5) Studios arrive which have Thunderbolt 5 expandability
5 - Utilisation of production facilities (why have production of Studios stagnant due to points 1 to 4)
6 - Profitability. The production facilities are a sunk cost for Studios, the cost of setting up production is paid for. Increasing production output due to lower prices would increase Apple's profits.
7 - Market pressures
8 - Customer Focus - dropping prices for superseded technology respects customers who don't want to be ripped off by buying something which will soon be replaced by a far superior similar form factor unit.
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Well, I did say they could and it would be great, not that they will.
The cheapest Mac Studio with similar specs to cheapest MBP 16" and the cheapast Apple Studio Display costs actually more, $3800 vs $3500 so Apple wouldn't lose money in many cases.I'm not so sure about the refurb deals though. Also the MacBook would cost more to make.Well, I did say they could and it would be great, not that they will.
Here on Apple's USA refurb page, are a few examples:
14" MacBook Pro 1TB/128 GB RAM M3 Max Chip with 16‑Core CPU and 40‑Core GPU - $3,989.00
Refurbished 14-inch MacBook Pro Apple M3 Max Chip with 16‑Core CPU and 40‑Core GPU - Silver
Originally released October 2023 14.2-inch (diagonal) Liquid Retina XDR display;¹ 3024-by-1964 native resolution at 254 pixels per inch 128GB unified memory 1TB SSD² Touch ID 1080p FaceTime HD camera Three Thunderbolt 4 (USB-C) ports
www.apple.com
Studio Apple M1 Ultra Chip 1TB/64GB RAM 20‑Core CPU and 64‑Core GPU $3,959.00
Refurbished Mac Studio Apple M1 Ultra Chip with 20‑Core CPU and 64‑Core GPU - Apple
Originally released March 2022 64GB unified memory 1TB SSD¹ Front: Two Thunderbolt 4 ports, one SDXC card slot Back: Four Thunderbolt 4 ports, two USB-A ports, one HDMI port, one 10Gb Ethernet port, one 3.5mm headphone jack
www.apple.com
While the M3 max has less cores etc, it is often faster. OK the 14" gets hotter sooner and throttles back. But its RAM would be good too, and that RAM's retail price for 64 to 128GB is an extra $800. Many say RAM lowers the work the drive does, and makes a big difference. The notebook also provides a battery, a charger, and keyboard and a screen, which you have to pay for in a Studio. It's reasonable to assume that the M3 chip will be supported longer than an M1. Perhaps two years longer OS support? That maybe worth something.
However, I have been ignoring the core speed of that higher end Studio. This one has less cores, and is much cheaper:
Mac Studio Apple M1 Ultra Chip 1TB/64GB RAM 20‑Core CPU and 48‑Core GPU $3,059.00
But if you add the $800 of RAM, it would still costs $3,859 compared to the M3 Max's extra $130.
Refurbished Mac Studio Apple M1 Ultra Chip with 20‑Core CPU and 48‑Core GPU - Apple
Originally released March 2022 64GB unified memory 1TB SSD¹ Front: Two Thunderbolt 4 ports, one SDXC card slot Back: Four Thunderbolt 4 ports, two USB-A ports, one HDMI port, one 10Gb Ethernet port, one 3.5mm headphone jack
www.apple.com
The 16" MacBooks do cost more though. They have less cooling issues and a bigger screen. I returned one to Apple which I received a 10% discount for a 1TB Max with the lesser cores. I found it very bulky (although I did have costly fancy case for it because I feared dropping it while on evaluation) but compared to my previous gen MacBook Pro 15.4" slim line with the touch panel, it felt really huge. So for many the cheaper 14" has considerable appeal. I returned it though because I felt 1 TB is too small for a notebook that I had intended to keep for many years. Drives tend to shrink over time IMO.
The annoying thing about Studios is that they should last a long time, but what will kill them may be their older gen CPUs will loose support before things like M3 processors. M2 Ultras on refurb seem much rarer and their configurations aren't impressive to me - they typically come under armed or fully equipped, and nothing in the value but effective stakes.
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I haven’t been following this thread, so apologies in general. I’m a Mini user, having bought a 16GB M1 when they first came out (switching from a 2015 Retina 5K iMac), wanting to support the move to Apple silicon.
I’m an art historian and curator. I work with images, lots of them. Color accuracy is important to me, not to mention all of the other features of the photography of art (especially paintings, but also other objects/environments), which is an art and a science in itself.
The M1 Mini has been great, especially after I got the Studio Display, but I haven’t really been working much lately, I’ve had too much going on in my life, mostly as a caregiver.
I’m going to buy a Studio next year, thus I’m posting here. M4 Max would be fine for my purposes, but I’m intrigued by the possibility that “Hidra” means something new.
My main theory is that Apple will end the Pro Mini and replace it with a Pro Studio. You’d still have the Max Studio and the Ultra Studio.
If you recall, the prognosticators all thought a redesigned Mini was coming but instead it turned out to be the Studio. So I think they could be off the mark in a similar fashion today: there will be a new, much smaller M4 Mini, but there won’t be an M4 Pro Mini using the new chassis, instead it will become the M4 Pro Studio.
I’m an art historian and curator. I work with images, lots of them. Color accuracy is important to me, not to mention all of the other features of the photography of art (especially paintings, but also other objects/environments), which is an art and a science in itself.
The M1 Mini has been great, especially after I got the Studio Display, but I haven’t really been working much lately, I’ve had too much going on in my life, mostly as a caregiver.
I’m going to buy a Studio next year, thus I’m posting here. M4 Max would be fine for my purposes, but I’m intrigued by the possibility that “Hidra” means something new.
My main theory is that Apple will end the Pro Mini and replace it with a Pro Studio. You’d still have the Max Studio and the Ultra Studio.
If you recall, the prognosticators all thought a redesigned Mini was coming but instead it turned out to be the Studio. So I think they could be off the mark in a similar fashion today: there will be a new, much smaller M4 Mini, but there won’t be an M4 Pro Mini using the new chassis, instead it will become the M4 Pro Studio.
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This is why Apple keeps bending us over.
Why would you take Apples side when you as a customer are getting affected?
You do know that hardware devaluates, plus manufacturing, parts, etc do become cheaper with time?
We the customers are getting less for our money, so we should demand more for ourselves.
I don't disagree with your points, and they make sense (I'm not privy to any inside Apple knowledge to either back-up or refute them). I just don't see how they're unique to the Studio as opposed to the entire Mac (heck, Apple) lineup. You could just swap out the word "Studios" with "Mac Pro" and it would make just as much sense.
I didn't take Apple's side in my post, I just stated that's what they've been doing as long as I've been using Macs. I'm confused as to why you would think I'm siding with Apple on the matter.
I have seen though, when looking longingly at the US market that has quite a bit of competition, that Mac prices at third party resellers often go for under MSRP. This doesn't apply to markets like Canada as the Apple Stores have all but wiped out the bigger resellers and most just sell iPhones or entry-level MacBook Airs.
Aren't new car sales similar to this model? Manufacturers seem to stick to a certain price point when a model comes out, and then dealers (resellers) offer incentives as they models get older to boost sales. That seems to happen at least in the US market, at least that's what it looks like to someone not from there looking in.
Because of this part: "Why would the Studio be an exception?"
Even though the subject is the Mac Studio, myself and the others are talking about Apple in general. And no, before they reached the current levels of smugness, they did lower prices.
For a Mac user, there is no competition. Is either an overpriced new Mac or a used one. 99.99% would not consider a PC at all.
Heck, at work, we had a whole dept moved from Mac to PC, because of the dept budget and the manager ended up crying because he couldnt get another Mac.
I have observed that and also noted that not all models are available, only some. Meaning some models with more memory or storage, etc are not even offered on those other places.
Cars is not the correct analogy to use.
Use other computer OEM's, whom do lower prices either in the form of lower msrp or coupons.
THAT's why you think I'm siding with Apple? Because I'm asking a question to how it applies to the Mac Studio, in a thread titled "Mac Studio Speculation" in the Mac Studio forum? 🤷♀️
Interesting that your department just moved from PC to Mac. We've just added a Mac lab in our department. 30-31 M2 Ultra Mac Studios. Funny thing is that the Macs came in less than the Dell workstations in the PC labs. I know it's not indicative of the overall market, it was just funny to see the two bills come in and the Apple unit cost as less. Pretty sure this was the exception to the rule...
Not as unusual as you may think:
"60% of Cisco’s employees now use Mac. And it isn’t just the employees enjoying the benefits of working on Mac. Cisco’s IT department requires 33% fewer admins to manage their Mac fleet, and the sales and software engineering teams have seen performance increases across the board. The data is clear."
"It’s not just worker productivity, happiness and satisfaction that are boosted by employee choice — there are other real benefits for the business as well.
The data reports that:
• Mac users experience almost 5 times fewer cyber threats, and 9 times fewer virus issues than PCs, based on Cisco’s Secure Endpoint detection software.
• 89% of Mac users leverage biometrics compared to 29% of PC users, a known boost to security.
• The streamlined upgrade process for macOS Ventura, which took just one month compared to the six-month timeline for Windows 11, demonstrates Mac's agility in adapting to new technology.
While Mac’s higher upfront cost is a concern for organizations when allocating employee devices, Cisco found that Mac was actually $148-$395 less expensive over three years, depending on the model."
The Long & Winding Road to Mac Adoption: Insights from a Mac Management Expert - We Got Your Mac - SHI
Successes at IBM and Cisco have given a blueprint for large-scale Mac adoption, but it doesn’t happen overnight.
Mac in the Enterprise: Cisco's Success with Employee Device Choice
Discover how the inclusion of Macs improved employee satisfaction, productivity, security, and cost savings. Fletcher Previn, SVP and CIO at Cisco, shares insights.
Mac in the enterprise means good business. Learn from Cisco's success story.
Explore Cisco’s transformative journey with Macs and Jamf. Delve into the benefits and employee feedback on their device choice program. Watch the full session.
IBM: ‘Mac users are happier and more productive’
IBM, which has embraced Apple hardware in a big way, says the employees who use Macs are more likely to stay at the company – and are more productive. The insights came at this weeks Jamf Nation User Conference.
www.computerworld.com
IBM: Our Mac-Using Employees Outperform Windows Users in Every Way
IBM is claiming some profound improvements for macOS versus Windows in business operating environments, but it's not clear the gains are coming from the OS difference itself.
Forrester Research and IBM Studies Show Macs Are Cheaper than PCs
It’s taken as gospel that Macs are more expensive than PCs. A quick look at the Dell Web site reveals laptops for as low as $300. Sure, we can s...
mbsdirect.com
Google to employees: 'Mac or Linux, but no more Windows'
We first heard rumors of this policy change a couple of months ago, but now it's made the papers: the Financial Times is reporting that Google is phasing out the use of Windows internally, as employees are migrated to either Linux or Mac OS X on machine turnovers or new hires. The policy change...
www.engadget.com
Google wants employees using Macs, not Windows or its own Chromebooks
In a presentation at the LISA ’13 conference earlier this month, Google explained that it’s managing a fleet of over 43,000 Macs its employees use, …
bgr.com
There would be studies showing the reverse as well.
And look at the biometrics - which uses finger print reading and face recognition for better security. My wife's HP notebook from 2018, has both finger print and face recognition. Yet Mac doesn't have face recognition on computers yet. One wonders about the veracity of that claim.
Cisco and the others - this thread is about Studios. Cisco did introduce a lot of Macs, with good results. But they were MacBooks. And its obvious MacBooks would be more productive - for one, their battery life is 4 times better. Due to the M processors. And until this year, Windows notebooks did not have ARM processors, and in fact, business notebooks still do not have ARM. And a benefit of ARM is that there aren't many many games - which boosts business productivity. The software model also adds security (obtaining only from the Apple store). Games are insecure full stop.
I don't view Apple notebooks as being serous for business, because despite their poor key action, they have never made a keyboard which is drink spill proof.
But this thread is about Studios. And although they are basically notebook computers (due to their notebook architecture) their form factor is space efficient, M processors use less power, and if the software is there and will not be more productive given later hardware upgradability, they can make a slot of sense due to their single design. Compared to myriad PC options, which covers almost every item inside the box, resulting in infinite variation hardware possibilities.
And as far as Google goes - they want all work done in the cloud. And IBM also has big issues with Microsoft.
If one looks at a current HP workstation, they are more expensive for dollar v performance, than if one bought a 2019 Mac Pro and had 24 cores in it. Shame that Apple has thrown that computing concept away, replacing such machines with notebook designs. I would like Apple a lot more, if they just put in a spare drive slot and a spare RAM slot, accessible to the user to upgrade.
And look at the biometrics - which uses finger print reading and face recognition for better security. My wife's HP notebook from 2018, has both finger print and face recognition. Yet Mac doesn't have face recognition on computers yet. One wonders about the veracity of that claim.
Cisco and the others - this thread is about Studios. Cisco did introduce a lot of Macs, with good results. But they were MacBooks. And its obvious MacBooks would be more productive - for one, their battery life is 4 times better. Due to the M processors. And until this year, Windows notebooks did not have ARM processors, and in fact, business notebooks still do not have ARM. And a benefit of ARM is that there aren't many many games - which boosts business productivity. The software model also adds security (obtaining only from the Apple store). Games are insecure full stop.
I don't view Apple notebooks as being serous for business, because despite their poor key action, they have never made a keyboard which is drink spill proof.
But this thread is about Studios. And although they are basically notebook computers (due to their notebook architecture) their form factor is space efficient, M processors use less power, and if the software is there and will not be more productive given later hardware upgradability, they can make a slot of sense due to their single design. Compared to myriad PC options, which covers almost every item inside the box, resulting in infinite variation hardware possibilities.
And as far as Google goes - they want all work done in the cloud. And IBM also has big issues with Microsoft.
If one looks at a current HP workstation, they are more expensive for dollar v performance, than if one bought a 2019 Mac Pro and had 24 cores in it. Shame that Apple has thrown that computing concept away, replacing such machines with notebook designs. I would like Apple a lot more, if they just put in a spare drive slot and a spare RAM slot, accessible to the user to upgrade.
Last off topic reply.
Many times they wont tell you that these PC to Mac migrations have a hidden secret:
Either a Windows PC to remote to because a Windows program simply doesnt exist on Mac or worse (and more expensive) a Citrix server pushing a virtualized copy of that program. I am one of those, since my primary system is a MacBook Pro with a M2 Pro, but I have tools/programs that dont have a Mac version.
Those options both cost money that are indeed associated with the move to a Mac.
Many times they wont tell you that these PC to Mac migrations have a hidden secret:
Either a Windows PC to remote to because a Windows program simply doesnt exist on Mac or worse (and more expensive) a Citrix server pushing a virtualized copy of that program. I am one of those, since my primary system is a MacBook Pro with a M2 Pro, but I have tools/programs that dont have a Mac version.
Those options both cost money that are indeed associated with the move to a Mac.
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Well, Macrumors says Mac Mini M4 supports thunderbolt 5!!! So all Macs soon will ... including the Studio.
Thunderbolt 5 ports are running on the Mac mini with the M4 Pro SoC, the Mac mini with the base M4 SoC is still running Thunderbolt 4 ports...
"Hidra" forked too far off the Pro/Max would likely be a dual edged sword. Probably would result in substantially slower Mac Pro ( and Studio if coupled at the upper end) updates.
M4 and M4 Pro/Max different on I/O ( Thunderbolt 5). Hidra may be more an I/O differentiation ( e.g. 2 x16 PCI-e provisioning ) than a change to CPU/GPU design philosophy.
It didn't happen and probably won't happen in the future. The farther the Mx Pro diverges from the Mx Max in design the more likely that Apple will need multiple product placements for the Mx Pro. As the unique R&D costs go they will need a larger user base to amortize the costs over. That means Mx Pro in more products; not fewer.
Even more true if Apple sticks to an annual churn on the MBP Pro/Max models with potentially no other place to put Pro/Max SoCs into.
The Studio does appear to have a better ventilation subsystem than the new Mini. 'cool' air inputs right next o 'hot' air outputs .... we'll see how that works under stress. (shades of the Mac Pro 2013 'innovative' thermal design that didn't pay attention to coupling issues. )
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Thunderbolt 5 doesn't really change the "modular" dimension much over what TB v2, v3 ,v4 did. Primarily, what Thunderbolt 5 does is:
a. keep up with DisplayPort 2.x standards and abilities. ( and associated resolution/refresh improvements)
b. keep up with baseline x4 PCI-e capacity ( as M.2 SSDs increasingly move into the x4 PCI-e v5 range and v4 models move to mainstream volumes. )
8K displays will be more common in 2026 than they were in 2016 . Same with x4 PCI-e SSDs.
The side effect on Apple SoC features is that it is dragging the base Mx SoC into supporting TBv4 and more market standard support for number of external displays. One, two , or three external displays isn't changing the 'modularity' much. Count is higher, but an external display.
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A good example is over in the no WiFi 7 for the new MPBs thread.
People arguing that you don't need WiFi 7 because Apple didn't include it.
It's amazing, really, and kind of sad.
If the Max (low) configuration will be the same in the upcoming Studio next year, the only way to get more than 36GB RAM would be to upgrade to the higher version of the Max chip:
I wanted to get 48GB (as it will be the sweet spot for me in terms of future-proofing), but now it seems that I would have to pay for the more powerful chip (which I don't need). If that actually happens to be the case, it would be a pretty scumbag move by Apple, but I guess we are all very much used to such behaviour by now.
Of course, it's only a guess on my part, as we very well might only have the higher Max chip available, or no Max option at all and have only the Ultra (highly unlikely, IMO).
I wanted to get 48GB (as it will be the sweet spot for me in terms of future-proofing), but now it seems that I would have to pay for the more powerful chip (which I don't need). If that actually happens to be the case, it would be a pretty scumbag move by Apple, but I guess we are all very much used to such behaviour by now.
Of course, it's only a guess on my part, as we very well might only have the higher Max chip available, or no Max option at all and have only the Ultra (highly unlikely, IMO).
Oh, trust me, they know they have the rabid ones by the short ones, hence why they keep doing this.
Just observe how user serviceable hostile all of their devices are.
And all memory and storage upgrades are pure profit for them.
I think it will be Max and Ultra only, no Pro.
But I could be wrong.
I would like to buy an M4 max Mac Studio right now - that would be a great machine - and even faster than the M2 Ultra.
The new Mac mini is "nice" - but Headphone on front is a no go for me, as I always use Studio Monitors with my Desktops..
The new Mac mini is "nice" - but Headphone on front is a no go for me, as I always use Studio Monitors with my Desktops..
No system will ever be perfect for everyone.
If the new Mini works for you, except for the headphone jack, I would compromise.
One possible option is getting a L shaped plug or extension cable for it.
Or maybe wait a bit until a proper dock is released and it might have a solution for this.
Hoping someone makes a quality bracket that allows attaching the al-new Mac mini to the back of a display, but provisions for the bottom-mounted power button; this way all cable connections are hidden out of sight...