Mac Studio Speculation [Merged]

[tenthousandthings]

All this speculation is so far mostly ignoring the muddy waters as to what Apple is planning to replace their stopgap M2 Ultra Studios in their AI datacenter with.
I guess they wanted to get the design right for the replacement units, and I also guess that what replaces the consumer M4 Ultra Studio will share at least some of the R & D costs, so won't be manufactured (and then announced) until they've finalise their plans?

Is that known? That they have been using Studios? If so, I missed that. I imagined they would adapt Mac Pro components.

Isn’t that the point of the Hidra rumor, that it will be Mac Pro-only, and presumably also the basis for the Private Cloud Compute datacenters?

 

[PaulD-UK]

Apple to Power AI Features With M2 Ultra Servers

Apple plans to power some of its upcoming iOS 18 features with data centers that use servers equipped with Apple silicon chips, reports Bloomberg’s...

www.macrumors.com

I was just extrapolating that whatever they’re using would not need huge PCIe logic boards and that size would matter.

It’s the shared R&D that was my main point.

 

[Boil]

I was just extrapolating that whatever they’re using would not need huge PCIe logic boards and that size would matter.

Apple does not need to be using rack-mount Mac Pro units, they could have bespoke ASi M2 Ultra blade servers for all we know...

But if they are using the rack-mount variant of the Mac Pro, those PCIs slots could be put to use with high-speed networking cards and NVMe SSD RAID cards...

It’s the shared R&D that was my main point.

100% this; if Apple is using/plans to use the same chips that are in the high-end Mac Studios & the Mac Pros, this would help spread the cost of said chips across more than what just end-user sales account for...

 

[Pressure]

Apple to Power AI Features With M2 Ultra Servers

Apple plans to power some of its upcoming iOS 18 features with data centers that use servers equipped with Apple silicon chips, reports Bloomberg’s...

www.macrumors.com

I was just extrapolating that whatever they’re using would not need huge PCIe logic boards and that size would matter.

It’s the shared R&D that was my main point.

Yeah, it would logically make sense when you can fit at least 16 times the number of SoCs in the space of a single Mac Pro in a standard server rack.

Besides, as you mention, it's about the SoC and not some PCB with PCIe slots and SATA connectors. The server bound SoCs are definitely mounted on some custom rack PCB to maximize compute per server rack and not in a Mac Pro or Mac Studio chassis. That would be outright wasteful in area and cooling efficiency.

 

[tenthousandthings]

Apple to Power AI Features With M2 Ultra Servers

Apple plans to power some of its upcoming iOS 18 features with data centers that use servers equipped with Apple silicon chips, reports Bloomberg’s...

www.macrumors.com

I was just extrapolating that whatever they’re using would not need huge PCIe logic boards and that size would matter.

It’s the shared R&D that was my main point.

Links below are to the repair manuals. You may be right that the M2 Ultra Mac Studio logic board would be a better fit in a custom chassis:

Mac Studio (2023) Logic Board - Apple Support

support.apple.com

The 2023 Mac Pro logic board is huge, but it's really the heat sink that is the limiting factor in terms of space:

Mac Pro (2023) Logic Board - Apple Support

support.apple.com

So maybe the Mac Pro heat sink on a custom board in a custom chassis, and M4 Über will bring something like that to the 2025 Mac Pro.

 

[dapa0s]

Eight reasons:
1 - Longer time between model upgrades - and new Studio in 6 months time
2 - Operating System has less duration than newer tech hardware (m1 looses support before M4, etc)
3 - Lack of upgradability means hardware devalues significantly relative to faster hardware (unlike a Mac Pro 7,1 tower which would still be valuable if Apple had promised to continue to support Intel CPUs and their architecture) but when Thunderbolt 5 arrives T3/4 machines will have inferior drive extendability than T-5 units.
4 - Value (see previous points) - M1 & M2 Studios with T4 will devalue hugely when M4 (or M5) Studios arrive which have Thunderbolt 5 expandability
5 - Utilisation of production facilities (why have production of Studios stagnant due to points 1 to 4)
6 - Profitability. The production facilities are a sunk cost for Studios, the cost of setting up production is paid for. Increasing production output due to lower prices would increase Apple's profits.
7 - Market pressures
8 - Customer Focus - dropping prices for superseded technology respects customers who don't want to be ripped off by buying something which will soon be replaced by a far superior similar form factor unit.

Sorry, but this is just a weird take, you can literally say this about any Apple product ever.

And I'm not sure that the M2 Ultra will lose support soon, it's almost as powerful as the M4 Max, only worse in synthetic benchmarks. Why would Apple drop support for it, considering that the people that bought the M2 ULTRA version are people spending $5k+ on their device.

Also, lack of T5 won't really be that problematic, yes, it's a nice thing to have, but it won't be that important for most people.

 

[Melbourne Park]

That post was because some said provide a list - and did.

As far as Apple support goes - I was providing answers to that query.

The reason for support issues would be because the M2 computers were announced two years ago.

Its not the same for Studios as other Macs because they have more frequent upgrade cycles.

IMO support should be available for 7 years. Hopefully 10. But if Apple does have a 7 year support for Studios, the question then would be whether that applies to the purchase date, or the announcement date of the computer. Typically support has referred to the introduction date. There have been some exceptions. For instance the 2010 Mac Pro was supported for as long as the 2012 Mac Pro. Although they were the same 5,1 MacPro model, and used the same CPUs, but the 2012 ones were sold with slightly faster clock speeds than the 2010 ones typically.

The reason why Thunderbolt 5 is important, is because of the charge Apple applies to internal storage. Buying any Thunderbolt 4 Mac will suffer more depreciation because its internal storage is fixed, and T-5 computers will provide around 5,500-6,100 MBs speeds using T-5 externals, compared half those speeds with T-4. When substituting external low cost drives (around one quarter the cost) for internal drives, people will not be willing to pay as much.

If one pays for 8 TB of storage inside a Studio, it costs an extra arguably $2,000 (Apple provides a 1TB standard) and the upgrade costs:
- 2 TB is $400
- 4TB is $1,200 (retail at B&H $200=>$250)
- 8 TB is $2,200.

Currently OWC offers a 4TB waterproofed ruggedised 4 TB Thunderbolt 5 drive with cable for $600.

External cases are coming .

For user upgrades in M Macs, check Dosdude's thread on upgrading Macs drives using Chinese iPhone drives and the issues involved: typically requiring accurate heat control in melting he solder and re-soldering and also picking what to do as combinations are very restricted due to missing motherboard circuitry and its very much not a job for a first timer as many people wreck the motherboard on their first try.

A retail store like B&H charges for an NVME drive faster than Thunderbolt 5, $200 to $250 for 4TB. Cheap Thunderbolt 5 externals are coming (although the cables will be costly at first). The reality is that if someone buys a Studio M5 (or M4) with a 1 TB internal drive, they could then get 4 TB for around $200 for the drives and $75 for a cable and $100 for case. That means a cost of $375 compared to Apple's $1,200. And a cost of around $600 for 8 TB compared to Apple's $2,000. Which means it will be more cost effective to buy a new Studio and that means the current ones will depreciate more than if Apple supplied T-5 as they do in many MacBook Pros and also in the Mac Mini M4 Pros at the moment.

 

[krell100]

With only 4-7 months before we see M4 Studio's who would be buying an M2 at this point?

 

[dapa0s]

With only 4-7 months before we see M4 Studio's who would be buying an M2 at this point?

Bought one a few days ago. I need it for work in music, and the M4 Max performs ok, but can get very loud, and I need something that stays cool, quiet and stable 24/7 basically. And I needed something now, I don't regret the decision at all, there is no artifical FOMO just because a new thing will come out. The M2 Ultra should be more than enough for me for years.

 

[Ray2]

I would like to buy an M4 max Mac Studio right now - that would be a great machine - and even faster than the M2 Ultra.

The new Mac mini is "nice" - but Headphone on front is a no go for me, as I always use Studio Monitors with my Desktops..

Not sure I understand this. Sounds like you’re connecting analog monitors. Assume SQ is important to you. Why be tied to Apple's DAC when a host of USB-C to mini jack dongles/adapters are available with a variety of DAC's or USB-C DAC's for serious SQ. All of which would be back side.

 

[datagov63]

I personally hope Apple debuts the M5 Max with the next Studio in 2025.

 

[Apple2GS]

Did Nvidia DIGIT at $3,000 just guarantee that the new M4 Studio Ultra will have 128GB base?

I know the Nvidia is an AI Linux box, but still some crossover in use cases for developers using AI.

 

[Canadia69]

With only 4-7 months before we see M4 Studio's who would be buying an M2 at this point?

Thats such a big range, if it comes lut before summer, i would def get a M4 Max Mac Studio, if not ill maybe forced to get a M4 Pro mac Mini…

From intuition, would u say it will come out closer to 4 month or 7month from now?

 

[tenthousandthings]

Thats such a big range, if it comes lut before summer, i would def get a M4 Max Mac Studio, if not ill maybe forced to get a M4 Pro mac Mini…

From intuition, would u say it will come out closer to 4 month or 7month from now?

I think what @krell100 meant was March (same time as the M4 MacBook Airs) or June (WWDC) is most likely. In between is less likely, but not unheard of.

June? I think if it were March, then it would only be the Max, without the Ultra, which seems unlikely.

It looks like something might be up with the Ultra, like it won’t be 2x Max. My intuition says they will want to introduce that new direction at WWDC.

 

[krell100]

Thats such a big range, if it comes lut before summer, i would def get a M4 Max Mac Studio, if not ill maybe forced to get a M4 Pro mac Mini…

From intuition, would u say it will come out closer to 4 month or 7month from now?

As @tenthousandthings said, I think March is the earliest we'd see an M4 Studio but the far more likely date is June WWDC.

 

[pshufd]

The M1 Studio was launched in March and the M2 Studio launched in June. The bulk of the speculation is in Q2 so that would align roughly with past history. I'm fine with my M1 Studio but would like to upgrade for USB4 and much better single-core performance. The M4 Pro mini would actually get the job done in terms of performance but I'd prefer something that supports four monitors and has better cooling.

 

[Pressure]

The M1 Studio was launched in March and the M2 Studio launched in June. The bulk of the speculation is in Q2 so that would align roughly with past history. I'm fine with my M1 Studio but would like to upgrade for USB4 and much better single-core performance. The M4 Pro mini would actually get the job done in terms of performance but I'd prefer something that supports four monitors and has better cooling.

M1 Max / M1 Ultra already supports USB4?

 

[pshufd]

M1 Max / M1 Ultra already supports USB4?

Thanks. I just checked and you are correct. The rear ports support USB4 on the Max. Maybe I'll just keep the M1 Max Studio.

 

[Mac_fan75]

March would be nice, June is like meh november M5 Max for their beloved MacBooks.... Also would love to see like a M4 Max with double GPU cores, don't need those CPU cores of Ultra but guess stuff like that might happen with Hidra or later.

 

[Calaveras]

Yeah, it would logically make sense when you can fit at least 16 times the number of SoCs in the space of a single Mac Pro in a standard server rack.

Besides, as you mention, it's about the SoC and not some PCB with PCIe slots and SATA connectors. The server bound SoCs are definitely mounted on some custom rack PCB to maximize compute per server rack and not in a Mac Pro or Mac Studio chassis. That would be outright wasteful in area and cooling efficiency.

I'm skeptical of Mac Studios in a datacenter at scale. I've worked in a lot of datacenters. And non rackmount gear velcro-ed to a shelf is the absolute worst. It makes cabling more complicated and is usually not great for cooling either. They also usually require the whole shelf be deracked to troubleshoot.

The Studios draw air from the bottom and expel out the back. In server racks we want air from the front going out the back. Seems a minor difference, but this difference causes air turbulence which prevents efficient air flow front to back.
However I would not be surprised to see Studio PCBs in a different form factor. You could probably fit 4-6 Studios ins a typical Supermicro 1U chassis. And just blast air front to back with a bunch of fans. Effectively moving the heat properly.
It may seem like a minor point, but when you work in a datacenter, heat islands are as much a concern as networking and power issues. We even have mobile chillers in larger or more mission critical datacenters for that reason.

 

[tenthousandthings]

I'm skeptical of Mac Studios in a datacenter at scale. I've worked in a lot of datacenters. And non rackmount gear velcro-ed to a shelf is the absolute worst. It makes cabling more complicated and is usually not great for cooling either. They also usually require the whole shelf be deracked to troubleshoot.

The Studios draw air from the bottom and expel out the back. In server racks we want air from the front going out the back. Seems a minor difference, but this difference causes air turbulence which prevents efficient air flow front to back.
However I would not be surprised to see Studio PCBs in a different form factor. You could probably fit 4-6 Studios ins a typical Supermicro 1U chassis. And just blast air front to back with a bunch of fans. Effectively moving the heat properly.
It may seem like a minor point, but when you work in a datacenter, heat islands are as much a concern as networking and power issues. We even have mobile chillers in larger or more mission critical datacenters for that reason.

Apple has stated they are using “custom-built server hardware” for Private Cloud Compute (PCC): https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

Which probably means exactly what you say, M2 Ultra(s) in a new, purpose-built chassis. M4 Ultra+ (whatever it turns out to be) will be the same. I don’t see this ever being sold, this custom hardware runs a custom OS (described in the above blog post). The product here is Apple Intelligence, not server hardware.

My prediction would be that M4 Mac Studio, like M1 and M2, will have Max and Ultra, but the M4 Ultra+ package will only be found in the Mac Pro, and Apple will make a big splash at WWDC about how you can run macOS on the same silicon (without the custom chassis) that’s used for PCC.

 

[Canadia69]

Do you guys think the Max was start at the same config it starts out now (36gb memory (since they dont do 32anymore) with 512gb)?

The m4 max mbp start with 36gb ram and 1tb storage…so wondering if theyre gonna stick with same m4 max config and have it also start at 1tb instead of 512..

also i wonder if theres any chance it will starr with 48gb mem instead of 36..but thats unlikely right?

 

[DigitriX]

Do you guys think the Max was start at the same config it starts out now (36gb memory (since they dont do 32anymore) with 512gb)?

The m4 max mbp start with 36gb ram and 1tb storage…so wondering if theyre gonna stick with same m4 max config and have it also start at 1tb instead of 512..

also i wonder if theres any chance it will starr with 48gb mem instead of 36..but thats unlikely right?

If the Max (low) configuration will be the same, the only way to get more than 36GB RAM would be to upgrade to the higher version of the Max chip:

I wanted to get 48GB (as it will be the sweet spot for me in terms of future-proofing), but now it seems that we would have to pay for the more powerful chip (which I don't need). If that actually happens to be the case, it would be a pretty scumbag move by Apple, but I guess we are all very much used to such behaviour by now.

Regarding the storage - every MacBook Pro with Max chip has started from 1TB, but for the Studio you get 1TB as a starting point only if you pick the Ultra chip...

 

[pshufd]

If the Max (low) configuration will be the same, the only way to get more than 36GB RAM would be to upgrade to the higher version of the Max chip:

View attachment 2486631

I wanted to get 48GB (as it will be the sweet spot for me in terms of future-proofing), but now it seems that we would have to pay for the more powerful chip (which I don't need). If that actually happens to be the case, it would be a pretty scumbag move by Apple, but I guess we are all very much used to such behaviour by now.

Regarding the storage - every MacBook Pro with Max chip has started from 1TB, but for the Studio you get 1TB as a starting point only if you pick the Ultra chip...

That does suck. 48 GB would be good for me (I wanted the M1 Ultra but they were out of stock at my three local stores so I bought the Max). I can get by with 32 GB by not running two particular programs at the same time.

I just moved the main programs that I ran on my Studio to an i7-10700 desktop where 128 GB of RAM costs $174. Adding storage is easy though top speed is only 3,500 MB/s compared to 5,600 MB/s on the Studio. But adding storage is just the cost of an NVMe.

I was planning to get an M4 Studio but my setup is my Windows desktop and iMac Pro and am wondering if I need the Studio at all now. It still runs my NAS and a few other small things but I could move that over to the iMac Pro.

 

[tenthousandthings]

If the Max (low) configuration will be the same, the only way to get more than 36GB RAM would be to upgrade to the higher version of the Max chip:

View attachment 2486631

I wanted to get 48GB (as it will be the sweet spot for me in terms of future-proofing), but now it seems that we would have to pay for the more powerful chip (which I don't need). If that actually happens to be the case, it would be a pretty scumbag move by Apple, but I guess we are all very much used to such behaviour by now.

Regarding the storage - every MacBook Pro with Max chip has started from 1TB, but for the Studio you get 1TB as a starting point only if you pick the Ultra chip...

The current Mac Studio allows increasing the memory on the binned chip from 32GB to 64GB (the next step up for M2 Max) so there’s precedent.

Unfortunately, the binned M2 Max in the MacBook Pro also allowed this, so the fact they took this away for the binned M4 Max MacBook Pro is not a good sign. On the other hand, it seems like limiting the binned M4 Max to 36GB in the Studio would kill the upsell from the new M4 Pro Mini, which goes up to 64GB.