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Mac Studio Speculation [Merged]
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The M2 Pro is beating the M1 Max in CPU, not graphics. It's also the case that (the higher-end) M2 Pro and M2 Max share the same exact CPU just like the M1 Pro and M1 Max do. So, what you're seeing is the boost in CPU performance by newer (and more) cores.
That all being said, if you are truly worried about buying a Mac Studio and not feeling like you bought one at the wrong time (because a new one was imminent), buy an Apple Certified Refurbished model as those don't get discontinued when the brand new ones do. Worst case scenario, you buy one Refurbished, M2 Max/Ultra versions come out, and you miss out on a slight price cut on the refurbished M1 Max/Ultra model that you were otherwise going to buy.
From the standpoint of M1 vs. M2, I wouldn't freak out about what an M2 Max Mac Studio would give you. Unless you were going to stack it with 96GB of RAM (or higher) or found that the M1 Max's GPU is insufficient (which I'd find fairly unlikely), you're not going to lose out.
Or, you can just wait 6 months to a year for the next Mac Studio to come out. But if you need the machine now, I don't see any reason to wait.
I don't get it. I would expect mini with M2 Pro to cannibalize some of the Studio's sales, but MBP are completely different devices!
In any case, Studio still gives you plenty of RAM and graphic power, is still a good value if your use case requires it.
Kinda agree I mean it’s sound logic.
The 64 gb M1MAX with 1tb is not a cheap machine still because it has ports you can use in a small package touting Apple SoC with GPU core count in the highs making it a Mac Pro competitor. Apple isn’t replacing/updating the studio that we know of as it’s gotta couple problems. One problem is the M1MAX Studio modestly upgraded is a platform that doesn’t leave ANY of it real world old world MacPro users with any need for a new design. It’s still so good that it made the ultra kinda not worth the price. If you want to wait for the new M2 ones they may not come the way you think as Apple is having trouble marketing these higher core platforms with a cpu designation name when the GPU makes the computer too and a M1 chip combined with another and 32 core gpu let’s say is going to be better than a M2 whatever if it’s got a different gpu architecture.
The other problem is us. Apple is selling to a customer based used to intels where save 2016+17 the i5’s and i7’s were always better and they upped the gpu from the earlier launches. Apple is creating powerful chips that haven't seen them want for better🤓 or maxed out my users at the higher level.
Now also, resale values are going to be different with these. You can’t add, or customize, or fix them and the hard drive can be locked without the need for recycling companies.
The 64 gb M1MAX with 1tb is not a cheap machine still because it has ports you can use in a small package touting Apple SoC with GPU core count in the highs making it a Mac Pro competitor. Apple isn’t replacing/updating the studio that we know of as it’s gotta couple problems. One problem is the M1MAX Studio modestly upgraded is a platform that doesn’t leave ANY of it real world old world MacPro users with any need for a new design. It’s still so good that it made the ultra kinda not worth the price. If you want to wait for the new M2 ones they may not come the way you think as Apple is having trouble marketing these higher core platforms with a cpu designation name when the GPU makes the computer too and a M1 chip combined with another and 32 core gpu let’s say is going to be better than a M2 whatever if it’s got a different gpu architecture.
The other problem is us. Apple is selling to a customer based used to intels where save 2016+17 the i5’s and i7’s were always better and they upped the gpu from the earlier launches. Apple is creating powerful chips that haven't seen them want for better🤓 or maxed out my users at the higher level.
Now also, resale values are going to be different with these. You can’t add, or customize, or fix them and the hard drive can be locked without the need for recycling companies.
I just hope there will be an M2 Studio. Gurman thought it could be a one n' done like the iMac Pro.
We're planning to buy a modest desktop Mac this spring where I work. It's going to run DaVinci Resolve pretty much exclusively and I'm leaning towards that the GPU advantage of the M1 Max will be of greater benefit vs the CPU advantage of the M2 Pro (in the mini).
I really would like to think that we could get an M2 Max Studio instead and just enjoy the best of both, but it's hard to know with Apple when or even IF a product is to materialize.
We're planning to buy a modest desktop Mac this spring where I work. It's going to run DaVinci Resolve pretty much exclusively and I'm leaning towards that the GPU advantage of the M1 Max will be of greater benefit vs the CPU advantage of the M2 Pro (in the mini).
I really would like to think that we could get an M2 Max Studio instead and just enjoy the best of both, but it's hard to know with Apple when or even IF a product is to materialize.
I suspect that you're well off the mark, it's not even a year old yet.
Actually, the rumor mill is predicting no upgrade to the Studio this year.
This is pretty much in line with what even Apple hobbyists are speculating.
Gurman came out with a report, I believe this morning, that had no insight on any upgrades being done to the model.
Like I said previously, I don't think there will be major upgrades to the Mac Studio the next months. I think Apple is happy to sell the Mac Mini with the Mx and Mx Pro CPUs, the Mac Studios with the Mx Max and Mx Ultra CPUs, and then the Mac Pro will be upgraded with an Mx Extreme CPU. As the M1 Max is more powerful than the M2 Pro, I don't think Apple is too afraid of loosing sales. As for laptops, I think it will shape up to be the same differentiation between MacBook Air and MacBook Pros.
So, there is a point in buying M1 Max and M1 Ultra CPUs (in desktops) right now -> it'll be a while until Apple ships M2 Max and M2 Ultra CPUs in Mac Studios, and I do not think they'll sell these CPUs in the Mac Mini...
So, there is a point in buying M1 Max and M1 Ultra CPUs (in desktops) right now -> it'll be a while until Apple ships M2 Max and M2 Ultra CPUs in Mac Studios, and I do not think they'll sell these CPUs in the Mac Mini...
Interesting points, thanks all!
- desktops: Mini=Standard/Pro | Studio=Max/Ultra | Mac Pro=Ultra Duo/Quad/Extreme (or whatever name given!).
- laptops: MBA=Standard | MBP=Pro/Max.
Still reckon it'll be:
- June/WWDC - new Mac Pro (M2 Ultimate Duo/Quad/Extreme??) to get those buyers attention first,
- Oct/Nov - then Studio M2 Max/Ultra autumn bump, after MP buyers have had 4-months to buy MPs beforehand.
Reasoning:
1. Mac Pro is well over their 2-year timeframe, so WWDC dev time makes sense for their top expensive machine.
2. the M2 Max chip already exists in their laptop line (MBP). Apple knows Studio buyers know that, and that a decent portion of said buyers will be wondering why they can't have it in the Studio desktop line now, thus delaying their purchases (those buyers don't care if an M2 Ultra is/isn't available; they're in the more affordable Max buying segment).
3. a good portion of buyers considering a Studio will either have been tempted by buying a Mac Pro release in June, or the majority who don't want/can't afford the MP will then be awaiting said Studio bump before buying.
4. by Oct/Nov it'll have been 20-months since the Studio M1 Max/Ultra was released (in Mar 2022), so enough space to justify an update without annoying current owners (and/or fits Apple's ideal ~18-month update cycle – if the press have it right on that!).
Likely I'm either partially or entirely wrong of course, as we are talking about Apple here, and we all know they do things they feel like regardless of expectations, lol! 😆
Each line of desktop machines –Mini, Studio, (and highly likely) Mac Pro– have their own separate chip names. So there is never any crossover in those...
- desktops: Mini=Standard/Pro | Studio=Max/Ultra | Mac Pro=Ultra Duo/Quad/Extreme (or whatever name given!).
- laptops: MBA=Standard | MBP=Pro/Max.
Still reckon it'll be:
- June/WWDC - new Mac Pro (M2 Ultimate Duo/Quad/Extreme??) to get those buyers attention first,
- Oct/Nov - then Studio M2 Max/Ultra autumn bump, after MP buyers have had 4-months to buy MPs beforehand.
Reasoning:
1. Mac Pro is well over their 2-year timeframe, so WWDC dev time makes sense for their top expensive machine.
2. the M2 Max chip already exists in their laptop line (MBP). Apple knows Studio buyers know that, and that a decent portion of said buyers will be wondering why they can't have it in the Studio desktop line now, thus delaying their purchases (those buyers don't care if an M2 Ultra is/isn't available; they're in the more affordable Max buying segment).
3. a good portion of buyers considering a Studio will either have been tempted by buying a Mac Pro release in June, or the majority who don't want/can't afford the MP will then be awaiting said Studio bump before buying.
4. by Oct/Nov it'll have been 20-months since the Studio M1 Max/Ultra was released (in Mar 2022), so enough space to justify an update without annoying current owners (and/or fits Apple's ideal ~18-month update cycle – if the press have it right on that!).
Likely I'm either partially or entirely wrong of course, as we are talking about Apple here, and we all know they do things they feel like regardless of expectations, lol! 😆
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We agree on most, but I do not think the user group who buys the Mac Studio and who would seriously consider a Mac Pro is actually that big. Sure they spec it out, but they rarely hit "checkout".
The most base Mac Pro is still CAD7,500 and the high-end Mac Studio is "only" CAD5,000. That's a big difference, especially when you can actually configure a decent Mac Studio at CAD3,500...
I know I am one of these crazy users with a '19 Mac Pro and a '22 Mac Studio, but I do believe I belong to a very small group. Only professionals buy Mac Pros regularly, and the Mac Studio is catering to the prosumer market...
I tend to disagree the M2 Pro mini wins (I can see both sides, but hear me out).
The M2 pro with the 12/19/16 core upgrade, 32gb RAM and 1 TB sdd is the exact same price as the base studio (10/24/16 with 32gb RAM) and 1 TB sdd.
The Studio has more ports, a card slot, and likely better heat resolution. To me, and this is definitely a YMMV thing, the extra ports and card slot win out when you factor in the slightly "better" GPU the Studio carries (which probably is offset by the gradual M2 Pro chip improvement). I think in the real world they are basically identical machines in use.
Don't think you can go wrong with either. I bought a Studio Saturday because a) I can get it sooner, b) the ports/card and c) I tend to personal trust it for heat reasons which probably is moot in the real world.
I absolutely agree. I was excited about the Pro Mini (keep reading about high pitched frequencies with the studio), so went to price it out and discovered it was $100 cheaper than a similarly priced Studio. I would definetly take the Studio with M1 Max ovr the Mini with M2 Pro if they are about the same price.
You are right. ''Mini'' is a mini, it can not handle workloads as any Mac Studio. There is a reason why they called ''Max'' and ''Ultra''. I have used M1 Mini / M1 MBP Max / Studio Max / Studio Ultra everyday for a long time. I really don't want to use any M1 or M2 MBP MAX or M1 Studio MAX now. Also 32 GB Unified Memory is not enough for serious workloads even 64. I use Ultra every day last 7 months. I really saw the difference. I think, If anyone needs to use more CPU/GPU power with a trusted machine with multiple screens in a comfort way Ultra should be only choice, does not matters any Ultra has M1 or M2 chip on it. Maybe it's not a ''Pro'' machine but could handle a lot of weight. If Apple release a new MacPro/M2 Ultra in the future I will sell my M1 Ultra and buy it. It's so clear for me. Until that time...
It is certainly interesting to speculate what Mac Studio 2 will be.
Mac Studio 2 will most assuredly get M2 Max and M2 Ultra options, up to 192GB RAM, and updated wireless. I suspect it will gain additional ports to further differentiate itself from Mac mini.
Or, as many rumors speculate, Mac Studio is a one off stop gap for Mac Pro, which is rumored to be smaller than Intel Mac Pro, with 1 or 2 PCIe expansion slots meant solely for GPU cards and upgradable SSDs. No RAM upgradability given Apple Silicon's unified memory architecture.
Mac Studio 2 will most assuredly get M2 Max and M2 Ultra options, up to 192GB RAM, and updated wireless. I suspect it will gain additional ports to further differentiate itself from Mac mini.
Or, as many rumors speculate, Mac Studio is a one off stop gap for Mac Pro, which is rumored to be smaller than Intel Mac Pro, with 1 or 2 PCIe expansion slots meant solely for GPU cards and upgradable SSDs. No RAM upgradability given Apple Silicon's unified memory architecture.
This. I can't put it into numbers, but with a 10GbE network connection and TB4 connections, if you use all ports, that generates an enourmous amount of heat (especially the 10GbE), and I just feel the heat dispersement is better in the Mac Studio...
Thunderbolt controllers produce a lot of heat indeed. If you use multiple Thunderbolt Displays/Devices, then the Mac Studio will handle a lot better. Heat-Sink and fans are 6+ times bigger on Studio than Mini.
My hot take: Apple is done with M2 macs and is now moving on to M3.
I think the Mac Studio, iMac, and Mac Pro are going to get updated every other generation (M1, M3, M5, etc - yes I know Mac Pro isn’t on M1 but you get my point). Let me explain my reasoning. Of course this is all speculation.
First, there are a lot of variables right now that make predictions hard. The pandemic, supply shortages, chip shortages, TSMC issues with 3nm, shipping delays all created a big problem for Apple. As many have pointed out, it seems like the current round of M2 MBP and mini were originally supposed to come out in the fall based on a few clues and dates tied to videos and photos. We can also pretty safely assume due to Apples original 2-year transition roadmap which hasn’t happened, that things have not gone to plan. What we don’t know is Apples internal timeline.
However, when you look back at Apples release Candace during intel days, we know they were not constrained by these issues we see today. If you look at the iMac - it was consistently on a 2 year update cycle. Not because intel didn’t have chips readily available, but because Apple didn’t find the RnD worthy for a solid return of investment to update it every year. Meanwhile it’s laptops we’re getting yearly updates (and awhile back some may remember they even got multiple updates every year). This odd release cadence was the same with the Mac Pro, but that’s also an unusual story with the trash can fiasco. iMac Pro only ever got one iteration. Mac mini was notoriously forgotten for years. Point being their desktop macs we’re often not updated every intel generation while the MacBooks were.
All of this is to say, only their laptops and high-volume macs received annual updates with the latest chips.
With Apple Silicon, we know from the iPhone series that Apple believes RnD is worth designing a new chip every year. We also know the A-series and baseline M-series are very similar, using the exact same performance and efficiency cores, NPU and GPU cores and other co processors on chip. With a high volume of MacBook sales, of course it makes sense to update the Air and Pro lines every generation. They account for a massive percentage of sales.
We also know that chip design and fabrication costs money, and works better with a high volume of chips. From this article we can see that the Mac Studio only accounts for 1% of all Mac sales: which means the ultra chip accounts for a fraction of a percentage of all Mac sales. That’s a seriously low volume of chips.
As others pointed out, when discussing the Mac Studio, you have to discuss the Max and Ultra chips in tandem because the machine truly was created for the Ultra chip. Apple could only update the max variant as the ultra is still the king, but would that be weird? Hard to say. If Apple does this, then sure I could see an update this year.
However, if Apple only wants to update the studio when it has a new Ultra chip, I think we are waiting until M3 Ultra as I don’t think M2 Ultra exists. It’s not worth the RnD it takes when it accounts for a small fraction of a percentage of Mac sales.
Now, if Apple uses the ultra chip in the Mac Pro and the Studio, now you have volume and it starts to make more business sense to create that variant. But I think Mac Pro is also coming with M3. We’re already hearing rumors about a new M3 Air coming out this year and TSMC has started production on 3nm chips. Since we can assume Apple was slow in their transition, this means eventually they need to catch-up. Either they skip (internally) a generation, or they ramp up their release cadence.
That’s why I think this year, they are done with M2. It was always going to be a stopgap generation. Nothing groundbreaking. Just marginal improvements for those who have yet to jump on the Apple Silicon train: and this is a good thing. We want continuous upgrades. M3 is going to be a bigger leap forward with 3nm tech. And this is going to propel Apple forward and help them catch up (or with intel, surpass) to the latest intel and Nvidia chips.
I think the Mac Studio, iMac, and Mac Pro are going to get updated every other generation (M1, M3, M5, etc - yes I know Mac Pro isn’t on M1 but you get my point). Let me explain my reasoning. Of course this is all speculation.
First, there are a lot of variables right now that make predictions hard. The pandemic, supply shortages, chip shortages, TSMC issues with 3nm, shipping delays all created a big problem for Apple. As many have pointed out, it seems like the current round of M2 MBP and mini were originally supposed to come out in the fall based on a few clues and dates tied to videos and photos. We can also pretty safely assume due to Apples original 2-year transition roadmap which hasn’t happened, that things have not gone to plan. What we don’t know is Apples internal timeline.
However, when you look back at Apples release Candace during intel days, we know they were not constrained by these issues we see today. If you look at the iMac - it was consistently on a 2 year update cycle. Not because intel didn’t have chips readily available, but because Apple didn’t find the RnD worthy for a solid return of investment to update it every year. Meanwhile it’s laptops we’re getting yearly updates (and awhile back some may remember they even got multiple updates every year). This odd release cadence was the same with the Mac Pro, but that’s also an unusual story with the trash can fiasco. iMac Pro only ever got one iteration. Mac mini was notoriously forgotten for years. Point being their desktop macs we’re often not updated every intel generation while the MacBooks were.
All of this is to say, only their laptops and high-volume macs received annual updates with the latest chips.
With Apple Silicon, we know from the iPhone series that Apple believes RnD is worth designing a new chip every year. We also know the A-series and baseline M-series are very similar, using the exact same performance and efficiency cores, NPU and GPU cores and other co processors on chip. With a high volume of MacBook sales, of course it makes sense to update the Air and Pro lines every generation. They account for a massive percentage of sales.
We also know that chip design and fabrication costs money, and works better with a high volume of chips. From this article we can see that the Mac Studio only accounts for 1% of all Mac sales: which means the ultra chip accounts for a fraction of a percentage of all Mac sales. That’s a seriously low volume of chips.
As others pointed out, when discussing the Mac Studio, you have to discuss the Max and Ultra chips in tandem because the machine truly was created for the Ultra chip. Apple could only update the max variant as the ultra is still the king, but would that be weird? Hard to say. If Apple does this, then sure I could see an update this year.
However, if Apple only wants to update the studio when it has a new Ultra chip, I think we are waiting until M3 Ultra as I don’t think M2 Ultra exists. It’s not worth the RnD it takes when it accounts for a small fraction of a percentage of Mac sales.
Now, if Apple uses the ultra chip in the Mac Pro and the Studio, now you have volume and it starts to make more business sense to create that variant. But I think Mac Pro is also coming with M3. We’re already hearing rumors about a new M3 Air coming out this year and TSMC has started production on 3nm chips. Since we can assume Apple was slow in their transition, this means eventually they need to catch-up. Either they skip (internally) a generation, or they ramp up their release cadence.
That’s why I think this year, they are done with M2. It was always going to be a stopgap generation. Nothing groundbreaking. Just marginal improvements for those who have yet to jump on the Apple Silicon train: and this is a good thing. We want continuous upgrades. M3 is going to be a bigger leap forward with 3nm tech. And this is going to propel Apple forward and help them catch up (or with intel, surpass) to the latest intel and Nvidia chips.
You are probably right.
M1 is based on A14 from iPhone 12 series.
M2 is based on A15 from iPhone 13 series.
It would be reasonable to assume M3 adopting A16 from iPhone 14 Pro series. But maybe not? A16 is widely nicknamed as A15+, as it represents very minor upgrade from A15, with one of its biggest benefits already on M2 (LPDDR5). A16 is still manufactured using 5nm, only slightly more enhanced variant called N4 that allows slightly faster clock speed.
I think M3 will skip A16 and share A17's true 3nm fab process. The process should allow for faster clock speed and other enhancements, likely pushing 2nd generation Mac Studio and/or Mac Pro to late 2023.
Apple would want to maximize sales of each of its model. Meaning sometimes M2 mini will cannibalize Studio sales, sometimes something else will cannibalize sales of M2 Pro..So right now because M2 pro is hot, Studio will take a back seat. Then MacPro will appear and Studio owners will move to MacPro... in order to convince Studio owners to upgrade to MacPro, the gap between MacPro and Studio must be significant. That means no upgrades to Studio until MacPro appears (summer fall 2023) which means Studio might be updated in 2024
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