macOS 13 Ventura on Unsupported Macs Thread

[chris1111]

Don't worry, I'm helping the other Moraea devs (who are more skilled than me – don't think I'm the only hope!), but both non-Metal and legacy Metal pose significant challenges this year.

Sorry for being inactive here. I find Discord more convenient, and we don't have much to announce yet. Also, the OP of this thread is a troll and longstanding nuisance to the community, which further reduces my interest. Anyways, you're welcome to check out the OCLP Discord server where devs are more active!

Glad to hear from you and especially to see hope is still there! Yes I know that this is a big challenge, I myself tried several combinations of old kexts and Frameworks without any success. I'll take a look at the discord server to follow a bit what's going on
thanks

 

[hvds]

The only one who can make old graphics cards work under Ventura is @ASentientBot
It's a shame he doesn't say anything

But there is very good news for Nvidia Kepler users of 12.5 in Github main branch of OCLP 0.4.10.

 

[MacRumors3590]

But there is very good news for Nvidia Kepler users of 12.5 in Github main branch of OCLP 0.4.10.

Hooray!

 

[ronton3]

Thank You.

 

[chris1111]

But there is very good news for Nvidia Kepler users of 12.5 in Github main branch of OCLP 0.4.10.

Metal.framework 12.5 Beta 2 its probably the only one I forgot to testing when trying to solved this issue

 

[TOM1211]

OTA Update still goes along smoothly on MacBook Pro mid 2014 to beta 5 no issues there.

 

[siddhartha]

Nope. M1 Mac mini does not run rings around the 6,1 Mac Pro. The FirePro GPUs are far better, especially the D700s. And 64GB of RAM is much better for lots of demanding apps (or even 128GB if you need that). Apple sold lots of 6,1s in the last few years of the run. One cloud company in particular purchased boatloads of them. There were some 6,1s manufactured in 2019 and even 2020.

Exactly. If Apple sold these up until 2019, and has dropped support (at least OS updates) in 2022, something is wrong here...

Mine is an upgraded D500 GPU model, with an Intel XeonCPU E5-2697 v2 @ 2.70GHz. Got more than a couple of cores...64GB RAM.

Capable? Yes, it's got its own issues (have aftermarket cooling, and have changed out thermal paste), but very capable these days for what I do. Play the odd game, run Windows for work, and it dual-boots no problems.

Now I am looking at a replacement, but I don't think I should have to. Just talking with IT for a friend's company, who said that he never thought he'd see the day his company was recommending Apple, but because IT is tasked with a lot less upkeep, that's what they do.

Hard to argue, usually, but a 3-year lifecycle for this machine?

 

[exoticSpice]

Nope. M1 Mac mini does not run rings around the 6,1 Mac Pro. The FirePro GPUs are far better, especially the D700s. And 64GB of RAM is much better for lots of demanding apps (or even 128GB if you need that). Apple sold lots of 6,1s in the last few years of the run. One cloud company in particular purchased boatloads of them. There were some 6,1s manufactured in 2019 and even 2020.

Lol who suggested that the M1 Mac mini is better than the 6,1?

The Mac Studio will destroy 6,1 but not the Mac mini M1.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Now I am looking at a replacement, but I don't think I should have to.

Hard to argue, usually, but a 3-year lifecycle for this machine?

I agree. It is ridiculous that support would be cut within the 3 year window.

 

[0xCUBE]

Exactly. If Apple sold these up until 2019, and has dropped support (at least OS updates) in 2022, something is wrong here...

Mine is an upgraded D500 GPU model, with an Intel XeonCPU E5-2697 v2 @ 2.70GHz. Got more than a couple of cores...64GB RAM.

Capable? Yes, it's got its own issues (have aftermarket cooling, and have changed out thermal paste), but very capable these days for what I do. Play the odd game, run Windows for work, and it dual-boots no problems.

Now I am looking at a replacement, but I don't think I should have to. Just talking with IT for a friend's company, who said that he never thought he'd see the day his company was recommending Apple, but because IT is tasked with a lot less upkeep, that's what they do.

Hard to argue, usually, but a 3-year lifecycle for this machine?

to be fair, buying one of those things in 2019 isn't necessarily a very smart idea, considering that it was essentially the same price as in 2013, the hardware didn't change, hence you were overpaying more and more for older hardware. This is even more true when apple announced the 2019 Mac Pro at WWDC. Unless it was for urgent enterprise reasons, there really wasn't much of a reason to buy the 2013 Mac Pro in 2019.

 

[hvds]

I should say that I find this thread quite useful.

Reason: typing this now from an MBP5,2 running 13.0b4. The first post of this thread had sufficient info to try this, and some other posts (thanks Larsvonhier) were encouraging.

So I installed 13.0b4 over a failed earlier 13.0 attempt on an external SSD. Using a full USB installer and the latest OCLP 0.4.10 (ventura alpha) nightly. The SSD was prepared earlier with a CCC data clone with all user data etc. Taking the OS.dmg replacement from MrMacintosh IPSW for b4 - avoiding AVX2 still works. Copying it to the target while running 12.5 from the internal SSD.
Ethernet working. Mouse/keyboard: using external ones via USB during installation and in running system.
Mail and Safari 16 working. Of course no graphics acceleration yet, how should it! Occasional WindowServer crashes as observed by others.

The purpose is to see that the basics are still understandable and feasible for me in Ventura. This MBP5,2 is no longer my production system because of charging circuit problems, but it is still a pleasure to experiment with it. I am more than happy with this outcome.

Great thank you to khronokernel and all developers!

Repeated the exercise with 13.0b5, to see if the non-AVX2 dyld still works: it does.
MBP5,2 mid 2009, Penryn CPU. Using OCLP ventura alpha branch 0.5.0 (edited - wrote 0.4.11 before) from 6 Aug.

Usable for writing this post, but not for much more... as was said many times in this thread.

 

[profinite]

I kept upgrading a 2006 Mac Pro until 2017. Then, I got a 2013 Mac Pro and gradually upgraded it with a new CPU, RAM, etc. As of today with Monterey, I am very satisfied with the kind of professional work that I can get done on this 2013 Mac Pro.

At present, I have no urgent need to run Ventura. Of course, I am curious about it. But, I need to be realistic about using a stable Ventura machine in order to get my work done. For the rest of this year, to myself, I see two choices.

[2013 Mac Pro with hacks running stably with Ventura]
If this scenario truly took place by the end of this year, then I would welcome it greatly. I could stretch the life of my 2013 Mac Pro a bit longer into 2023.

[2013 Mac Pro not running stably with Ventura]
If this scenario remains through the end of this year, then it will be logical to me to acquire a new Mac with an Apple chip, hence leaving the Intel era behind.

Yes, I am interested in running Ventura on an officially unsupported Mac. That is why I continue to monitor this thread. But, such a Mac must run stably with Ventura in order to get my work done. This has always been my bottom line.

 

[Payne Mononymous Bachman]

What gets me is the fact that they cut off the 2017 MacBook Air but decided to keep supporting the 2017 iMac and MacBook Pro.

 

[0xCUBE]

What gets me is the fact that they cut off the 2017 MacBook Air but decided to keep supporting the 2017 iMac and MacBook Pro.

the macbook air has weaker specs and the old design.

 

[headlessmike]

What gets me is the fact that they cut off the 2017 MacBook Air but decided to keep supporting the 2017 iMac and MacBook Pro.

The 2017 Air is essentially the same model as the early 2015 model, just with a minor speed bump. The CPU is still a 5th generation Intel chip, unlike the iMac and MacBook Pros that both received 7th generation chips in 2017.

 

[kinwin]

What gets me is the fact that they cut off the 2017 MacBook Air but decided to keep supporting the 2017 iMac and MacBook Pro.

Don't forget the 2017 12" retina Macbook which is supported by Ventura. The base model comes with the Core m3 processor which is slower than the i7 configuration of the 2017 MacBook Air. The cutoff for Ventura probably has more to do with the GPU. The MBA still use the ancient Intel HD 6000, while the rMB use the newer HD 615.

 

[osxhero]

Got my iMac (totally maxed out) in late 2016 (December), but the model reads Late 2015. It's an absolute workhorse doing 3D work and film editing along with a ton of other high-end processor intensive tasks daily. I love Apple and fought the OS wars in the 90s and even worked with the Jobs man for a couple years direct. He was always into a closed ecosystem for quality and on occasion to survive while Apple was rebounding.

However, I was forced to get a Windows machine back in 2017 against my will and found out that I had amazing performance from a ROG laptop that I bought from the now dead Fry's Electronics. PC nerds were drooling over my machine and I couldn't figure it out. I only paid $1200 for thing. Turns out the model I got was very powerful and quite a steal.

Then the power of the nVidia GPU struck home. I know these are going inside Macs now, but wow, total game changer. After installing Optix, my render times went from a Mac that cost twice as much at 45 mins, to a Windows laptop doing the same job in 5 mins or less.

Then there's Windows. Monterey is BEAUTIFUL. Ventura looks even better. Windows 10 was weird and clunky and still can't remember what folder you were in per app. Sad sad programmers. Windows 11 debuts and hmmm, it's looking way better. Easier to do easy things. Still haven't figured out folder memory which is infuriating for a professional.

Finally got a Dell G7 laptop that turned in performance scores way beyond my ROG unit.

The reason I write this is that every moment Apple orphans its customers and says something to the effect of, "well, you've got to buy our new machines or you're out of the family." It's a risky move. We have a troubling economic outlook coming. Windows machines doing real work, I HATE TO SAY IT, are getting my work done extremely quick for a fraction of the cost. It used to be PC IT folks fearing their clientele seeing a Mac. Now I'm think the tables have turned. when someone can keep half their money for better performance, they're (IMO) willing to learn a few new things.

Ironically, Microsoft with Windows 11 cut out my ROG computer due to memory and processor power. I'm pretty sure Apple and Microsoft in any legal paradigm wouldn't be able to prove their requirements exceeded the machines they are excluding.

 

[0xCUBE]

Don't forget the 2017 12" retina Macbook which is supported by Ventura. The base model comes with the Core m3 processor which is slower than the i7 configuration of the 2017 MacBook Air. The cutoff for Ventura probably has more to do with the GPU. The MBA still use the ancient Intel HD 6000, while the rMB use the newer HD 615.

it doesn't matter if it's an m3 or an i7, it matters what the generation of the hardware is (the i7 is only 5th gen so it's older) and the old design. If Apple used the logic that you're suggesting, the old cheesegrater mac pros would still be supported because they have 4-12 core xeons.

 

[Exit_74]

it doesn't matter if it's an m3 or an i7, it matters what the generation of the hardware is (the i7 is only 5th gen so it's older) and the old design. If Apple used the logic that you're suggesting, the old cheesegrater mac pros would still be supported because they have 4-12 core xeons.

Apple could still support the old cheesegraters, it runs monterey with no problems but Apple decided and choose not to support older hardware it makes no sense at all, yeah for their shareholders not from a technical point of view.

 

[Tockman]

but Apple decided and choose not to support older hardware it makes no sense at all

Look, walking in Apple's boots, what should you prefer: free support of old machines (=zero new sales) or making a profit? Just curious.

 

[headlessmike]

Another thing people often overlook is that Intel at some point stops supporting old chips. While Apple and other manufactures may still offer their own hardware and software support after that time, they will no longer receive security updates for flaws in, e.g., the CPU microcode. It therefore makes some sense for the manufacturers to drop support at the same time as Intel. Coincidently, Intel will be dropping support for the 6th Generation of Core processors (a.k.a. Skylake) in September of 2022, around the same time as Ventura is expected to be released, which only supports 7th Generation and newer Intel Core CPUs. Apple could support the older hardware if they really wanted to, but there are external factors that help them draw the line where they did other than just the transition to Apple Silicon.

 

[Exit_74]

Look, walking in Apple's boots, what should you prefer: free support of old machines (=zero new sales) or making a profit? Just curious.

It depends, Apple can look and say we support old platforms to a certain degree..and you can buy Os support for them and then Apple make some money of it and have loyal and satisfied customers and they think when in the future the hardware fails (it will in the end)..i love Apple lets buy a new system, price is not an issue because they are topnotch and last for a long time.

Or like how Apple acts now and says, hey we have our new invention (Apple Silicon) and we dont care what you think Intel is bad/the old stuff, lets drop all support and dump all old hardware in the bin..us beeing a green company and all...save the planet.

Its the Attitude for me it should be your customers first and not your shareholders...and im not against new inventions, its the way they are forcing it upon you, as they hold the power of MacOS as well.

 

[chris1111]

Theme Flavours-macOS13 is available

 

[Aston441]

Look, walking in Apple's boots, what should you prefer: free support of old machines (=zero new sales) or making a profit? Just curious.

It’s THE fundamental issue with manufacturers now. Hardware peaked a long, long time ago. For the vast majority of the billions of people on earth, modern computers, and modern phones, and modern ANY electronic things do nothing better today than they did 10 years ago.

Sure you can point to incremental little improvements here and there, like a better resolution of camera or screen, faster this, faster that, but at the end of the day these devices are doing the exact same things people were using them for a decade ago.

Electronic Manufacturers realize this. Just as light bulb makers did 120 years ago. Planned, deliberate obsolescence is the only way forward for them now.

 

[houser]

>snip Planned, deliberate obsolescence is the only way forward for them now. < snip

Well said and generally and banally true. Probably stating the bleeding obvious here , but that is my thing
The relationship between a company and its clients/users probably just needs to be balanced (at least for me) by not making the planned obsolescence too obviously based on greed rather than useful innovation. FWIW.

I would just add that this is perhaps still in some ways a question of degrees and scales and the excellent OCLP code that is discussed here is certainly testament to that some old computers can run some new code well.