macOS High Sierra (10.13) Unsupported Macs Thread

[shaocaholica]

Just something strange with the native HS installer/Disk Utility. I just dropped in a new 850 EVO SSD and it wasn't showing up at all in the HS installer Disk Utility. I had to init the SSD using a spare ElCap USB and then it would show up in the HS installer. Also in the HS installer I nuked the APFS partition and reverted the SSD back to HFS and the operation was successful but then the whole drive disappeared in the HS installer Disk Utility and I had to do the whole thing again with another installer. Strange.

 

[roziek]

I'll try a clean install of High Sierra on an APFS partition using my USB external drive to see how that works out. It is unclear at the moment how many hurdles Apple will place in front of HDD users who want to install on APFS. Hopefully they won't go to the extreme of checking if the destination drive is non-SSD but APFS and refusing to install in that case.

Why would they? APFS was set to support plain old spinning HDDs from the beginning, both internal and external. It’s designed and optimized for SSDs, but supports HDDs nonetheless.

From Apple’s mouth:

Can I use Apple File System with my existing hard disk drive?

Yes. Apple File System is optimized for Flash/SSD storage, but can also be used with traditional hard disk drives (HDD) and external, direct-attached storage.

 

[jhowarth]

Just something strange with the native HS installer/Disk Utility. I just dropped in a new 850 EVO SSD and it wasn't showing up at all in the HS installer Disk Utility. I had to init the SSD using a spare ElCap USB and then it would show up in the HS installer. Also in the HS installer I nuked the APFS partition and reverted the SSD back to HFS and the operation was successful but then the whole drive disappeared in the HS installer Disk Utility and I had to do the whole thing again with another installer. Strange.

What partitioning does Samsung use for the raw SSD? If they are shipping with MBR, no? If so, Apple may just be getting sloppy about things that aren't GPT.
[doublepost=1504115558][/doublepost]

Why would they? APFS was set to support plain old spinning HDDs from the beginning, both internal and external. It’s designed and optimized for SSDs, but supports HDDs nonetheless.

From Apple’s mouth:

Because they know what a maelstrom of bug reports will be unleashed when APFS is widely deployed amd are trying not to 'drink from the fire hose'? Especially since they appear to have decided to make the use of APFS non-optional for upgrade installs on SSDs.

 

[roziek]

What partitioning does Samsung use for the raw SSD? If they are shipping with MBR, no? If so, Apple may just be getting sloppy about things that aren't GPT.
[doublepost=1504115558][/doublepost]

Because they know what a maelstrom of bug reports will be unleashed when APFS is widely deployed amd are trying not to 'drink from the fire hose'? Especially since they appear to have decided to make the use of APFS non-optional for upgrade installs on SSDs.

That simply doesn't make any sense.

They set out to support APFS on HDDs from the get go, officially and publicly. If they wanted APFS to be SSD-only, they would simply make it that way and state that fact. They've done quite the opposite.

Also, please remember how young APFS is. Assume any current problems are related to that. Introducing a whole new filesystem, at scale, is not easy and no one has ever done it without a glitch. It will work itself out over time.
[doublepost=1504117101][/doublepost]With that in mind, one would think they have to set their priorities and focus on SSDs now, to make APFS work on them reliably. HDDs are lower on that list, but they are definitely there.

 

[jhowarth]

Is the delay time on the EFI booting adjustable from an installed text file or is that hard coded into the apfs.efi boot file? Also, is there a way to suppress the appearance of the EFI boot progress? I assume we are defaulting to the equivalent of 'no splash' in Linux so perhaps we can go back to 'splash'.

 

[nekton1]

Does the latest 2.1.9 patcher attempt to support APFS booting with multiple physical SSDs? If so, I will trial it with three newly APFS formatted and patched SSDs in a MP3,1.

 

[nekton1]

That's interesting because it is the first report I have seen of a non-Apple GPU booting on a MP 3,1.
Is it a flashed PC card with efi.rom patch, or a purchase from MacVidcards in LA?
Does it display the efi.boot screen during booting? Without that efi screen, you may have problems setting up APFS booting. If you stay on HFS+, you may be OK.

Hey, I'm running a Mac Pro 3,1 with a GTX 680 and an SSD as my boot volume connected to an Apricorn Velocity Solo X1 pointing to my home directory on an HDD. Wondering if this High Sierra patcher would work with this setup at this time or if I should wait a bit more for some of the issues to be worked out.

 

[jhowarth]

I can reproduce the problem installing with High Sierra Patcher 2.1.9 on a freshly formatted APFS partition on an external USB drive in the presence of a pre-existing SATA based High Sierra installation. The installation and post patching doesn't produce a removable media EFI boot entry in the option boot selector. Also, when attempting to boot the EFI boot entry still present from the SATA drive, the boot now fails with the EFI shell error...

if: Check file existence fail - Invalid Parameters(line 8)

Also earlier in this failed boot I see the follow EFI shell warning...

which I don't recall seeing before. This makes me wonder if I am seeing the 'wrong' apfs.efi being loaded from the external usb drive's EFI partition before the one from the internal SATA drive. Allowing this randomness in which exact EFI partition is used for booting drives seems like a really really bad idea to me.
[doublepost=1504136935][/doublepost]I am seeing one thing that is disconcerting. If I look with 'sudo diskutil info' at the EFI partition on the internal SATA drive and the external USB drive to see their UUID's I get for the internal SATA drive...

Mac-Pro:~ howarth$ sudo diskutil info disk0s1 | grep UUID
Volume UUID: 0E239BC6-F960-3107-89CF-1C97F78BB46B
Disk / Partition UUID: 3B46F49B-BC50-4B9B-97FF-2A20E6472AF1

and for the external USB drive...

Mac-Pro:~ howarth$ sudo diskutil info disk5s1 | grep UUID
Volume UUID: 0E239BC6-F960-3107-89CF-1C97F78BB46B
Disk / Partition UUID: 5086BC18-96F1-45BC-AE29-F51A440EC5E6

I can't understand why both devices have identical volume ids. Perhaps this is why the boot selector doesn't display the external drive with its own EFI boot icon (if it is looking at the Volume UUID).
[doublepost=1504137365][/doublepost]Stranger still, inserting the High Sierra Patcher installer usb memory stick shows that it also has the same identical Volume ID...

Mac-Pro:~ howarth$ sudo diskutil info disk0s1 | grep UUID
Volume UUID: 0E239BC6-F960-3107-89CF-1C97F78BB46B
Disk / Partition UUID: 3B46F49B-BC50-4B9B-97FF-2A20E6472AF1
[doublepost=1504138498][/doublepost]I think I may see the issue here. Mounting the EFI partition of the USB memory key with the patched High Sierra installer, I find that it is completely empty. So unmounting that EFI partition and then mounting the one from the non-functional external USB drive with patched HS installed on the APFS partition shows...

Mac-Pro:/ howarth$ cd /Volumes/EFI
Mac-Pro:EFI howarth$ ls -l
total 1099
-rwxrwxrwx 1 howarth staff 560952 Aug 30 2017 EFI
-rwxrwxrwx@ 1 howarth staff 1506 Aug 30 19:42 startup.nsh

Compared to the mounted EFI partition from the working patched HS installation on a SATA drive with a APFS partition...

Mac-Pro:EFI howarth$ ls -l
total 4
drwxrwxrwx 1 howarth staff 512 Aug 29 01:42 EFI
-rwxrwxrwx@ 1 howarth staff 1504 Aug 30 12:01 startup.nsh

So the first layer to our problem is that removable media doesn't have the EFI directory by default and the APFS post patch ends up accidentally copying over apfs.efi as EFI rather than placing it into the EFI subdirectory.
[doublepost=1504139328][/doublepost]Okay, mounting the EFI partition from the removable media with the non-functional patched HS installation on the APFS partition, moving aside the misnamed EFI file as apfs.efi, creating the missing EFI directory and then moving the renamed apfs.efi into it eliminates the problems booting my install SATA APFS HS installation.

Now to try reapplying the post patches onto the USB external drive now that it has a EFI directory on the EFI partition.

 

[jhowarth]

Okay, Slowly progressing towards a fix here. I find that after creating the missing EFI directory on the EFI partition of the USB drive with the patched HS installation on a APFS partition, when I reapply the APBS post patch under the 2.1.9 High Sierra Patcher and reboot, there now is the expected 'EFI boot' removable drive icon in the boot selector that was previously missing. Unfortunately, when I boot that one, it actually ends up booting me into the APFS volume on my SATA drive. Perhaps related to the wrong apfs.efi getting launched (ie the one on the SATA drive rather than the one on the removable USB drive).

 

[nekton1]

Now we know why Apple went with the updated firmware option for APFS booting. Everything else is complex.
Keep up the good work and thanks.

 

[jhowarth]

Okay, yanking the internal SATA drive (disk0) allows the freshly installed patched HS installation on the external USB drive (disk5) to boot from its / partition instead of the one from the APFS SATA drive installation. The setup of the freshly installed High Sierra completed without issues and I'm posting from under it. So I take this as proof positive that there is in fact a subtle tethering of the apfs.efi to the disk it is booted from and that we in fact have to be careful to use the copy off of the disk that we are trying to boot. IMHO, there is simply no other possible explanation for this behavior of the APFS installed SATA drive (with an lower disk#) blocking the proper booting of the external removable one with the higher disk#. So we need two changes to the APFS patch for this to work...

1) The APFS patch needs to check if the EFI directory exists on the EFI partition and create it if missing before attempting to install files there. We also may want to delete any EFI (aka apfs.efi) files erroneously copied into the EFI partition's root directory by earlier APFS patches. Otherwise this will likely block the creation of the directory.

2) Implement my original design of placing a UUID placekeeper file in the EFI partition so we can look for it to determine the 'right' fs# to load the apfs.efi from. I am utterly convinced that this is essential to fixing the removable drive issues in the presence of any other APFS patched drives.

ps I suspect if anyone bothers to install patched High Sierra on APFS partitions residing on multiple SATA drives, that they will see this same bug. The boot selector for the higher number drives will accidentally boot the / partition of the first lowest number disk that the apfs.efi was launched from.

 

[dosdude1]

I just finished a new part of the APFS boot implementation, that should allow users with multiple APFS installs of macOS to switch the startup volume! It is implemented as a PreferencePane for System Preferences. Just double-click on the PrefPane file, and it will be installed to System Preferences. Download available here. Keep in mind this is used to switch between APFS boot volumes on the SAME disk. Booting from APFS volumes on different disks can be done in the boot menu (albeit, with a bit of guess work). It may also have a few bugs that need to be worked out.

 

[roziek]

@jhowarth I feel your pain. Here's how my afternoon and a good portion of the evening went (I already wrote to @dosdude1, but sharing here also in hope someone else has this problem too, or better yet, a solution):

Before I unplugged the disks I first checked if there's anything High Sierra related in the Startup Disk pref pane while booted into Sierra - but no, nothing.

Then I unplugged all disks except the one with High Sierra, rebooted and waited - but nothing. I either get the folder with the question mark blinking or it boots into the USB installer after a while (if I have it plugged in).

So, I rebooted again, holding option this time - no Sierra disk on the boot selection screen, or EFI Boot.

Booted into the installer, re-applied the patches and did the dance again - nothing still.

Then I made a new USB installer, this time using v2.1.9 that I saw appeared on @dosdude1's website. Rebooted, applied the patches, rebooted, did the dance - nothing.

Then came time for a fresh install. Did that, rebooted, applied the patches, rebooted - nothing (and also still nothing shows up on the boot selection screen).

I did another fresh install, this time formatting as APFS case-sensitive, and did the dance again - and again nothing.

After that, I did all of the above, but switched the disk to a different bay, out of desperation, I guess. Didn't expect anything, and yeah... no luck.

No matter what I do, I simply cannot make it work. The main problem is that the startup.nsh doesn't even get run, at all, not that it can't find the right disk to boot from.

I'm baffled.
[doublepost=1504142917][/doublepost]

I just finished a new part of the APFS boot implementation, that should allow users with multiple APFS installs of macOS to switch the startup volume! It is implemented as a PreferencePane for System Preferences. Just double-click on the PrefPane file, and it will be installed to System Preferences. Download available here. Keep in mind this is used to switch between APFS boot volumes on the SAME disk. Booting from APFS volumes on different disks can be done in the boot menu (albeit, with a bit of guess work). It may also have a few bugs that need to be worked out.

View attachment 715221

Neat! Would be nice if it showed real volume names, though .

 

[dosdude1]

@jhowarth I feel your pain. Here's how my afternoon and a good portion of the evening went (I already wrote to @dosdude1, but sharing here also in hope someone else has this problem too, or better yet, a solution):

Before I unplugged the disks I first checked if there's anything High Sierra related in the Startup Disk pref pane while booted into Sierra - but no, nothing.

Then I unplugged all disks except the one with High Sierra, rebooted and waited - but nothing. I either get the folder with the question mark blinking or it boots into the USB installer after a while (if I have it plugged in).

So, I rebooted again, holding option this time - no Sierra disk on the boot selection screen, or EFI Boot.

Booted into the installer, re-applied the patches and did the dance again - nothing still.

Then I made a new USB installer, this time using v2.1.9 that I saw appeared on @dosdude1's website. Rebooted, applied the patches, rebooted, did the dance - nothing.

Then came time for a fresh install. Did that, rebooted, applied the patches, rebooted - nothing (and also still nothing shows up on the boot selection screen).

I did another fresh install, this time formatting as APFS case-sensitive, and did the dance again - and again nothing.

After that, I did all of the above, but switched the disk to a different bay, out of desperation, I guess. Didn't expect anything, and yeah... no luck.

No matter what I do, I simply cannot make it work. The main problem is that the startup.nsh doesn't even get run, at all, not that it can't find the right disk to boot from.

I'm baffled.
[doublepost=1504142917][/doublepost]

Neat! Would be nice if it showed real volume names, though .

That is what I named the volumes... It does show the actual volume names.

 

[jhowarth]

The testing here suggests that for removable media the startup.nsh that resides on those drives isn't used and that one from the internal drives is used instead. Since all removable media lacks the EFI directory present on non-removable media, I suspect that the Apple EFI firmware doesn't expect to see a startup.nsh there either. What would be great is if someone with two spare internal SATA drives can install APFS patched HS on both. Then verify that using the boot selector for each actually boots the correct APFS volume. This would provide a confirmation of the hypothesis that the issue only impacts removable media and that internal drives will always boot their correct startup.nsh.

 

[markjulie]

I recently upgraded to 10.12.6 on a 2008 MacPro3,1 that has been running Sierra for a year. Since last weekend, MAS freezes when I try to update apps or buy new ones. I have run through the steps on https://rick.cogley.info/post/resolve-osx-appstore-hang-and-crash-problem/ with no change. What else might work?

 

[nekton1]

I'll try now with two internals SSDs
Wait a little while as I set up.

The testing here suggests that for removable media the startup.nsh that resides on those drives isn't used and that one from the internal drives is used instead. Since all removable media lacks the EFI directory present on non-removable media, I suspect that the Apple EFI firmware doesn't expect to see a startup.nsh there either. What would be great is if someone with two spare internal SATA drives can install APFS patched HS on both. Then verify that using the boot selector for each actually boots the correct APFS volume. This would provide a confirmation of the hypothesis that the issue only impacts removable media and that internal drives will always boot their correct startup.nsh.

[doublepost=1504151535][/doublepost]How do we use/install the prefpane.zip after setting up the multiple patched SSDs?

I just finished a new part of the APFS boot implementation, that should allow users with multiple APFS installs of macOS to switch the startup volume! It is implemented as a PreferencePane for System Preferences. Just double-click on the PrefPane file, and it will be installed to System Preferences. Download available here. Keep in mind this is used to switch between APFS boot volumes on the SAME disk. Booting from APFS volumes on different disks can be done in the boot menu (albeit, with a bit of guess work). It may also have a few bugs that need to be worked out.

View attachment 715221

 

[dosdude1]

I'll try now with two internals SSDs
Wait a little while as I set up.


[doublepost=1504151535][/doublepost]How do we use/install the prefpane.zip after setting up the multiple patched SSDs?

It's only designed to be used to switch the boot volume if multiple APFS volumes on one a single disk. For multiple disks, you should be able to just select the desired one in the system's boot menu. Of course, based on @jhowarth's tests, this may not be the case, in which case I'll have to make some changes. Just test with multiple APFS installs on different SSDs, and see if it works as intended. To get back to your question, though, all you have to do to install it is double-click on it, and it will install itself. It's just only designed to switch the boot volume when there are multiple APFS macOS installs on a single drive, as I said, so it won't be useful in your application.

 

[nekton1]

I'll try now with two internals SSDs
Wait a little while as I set up.


[doublepost=1504151535][/doublepost]How do we use/install the prefpane.zip after setting up the multiple patched SSDs?

Making two SSDs (Disk A and Disk B) with fresh APFS partitions using DU on HS beta 8 with 2.1.9 patcher. Each disk is getting the OS install and post-install patch separately with only one SSD at a time in one SATA slot-there are no other SSDs internal or external in the MP3,1 when setting up each SSD. I'll check that the MP 3,1 will boot correctly with only one SSD in it. After confirming that, I'll install both SSDs in SATA slots 2 and 3 and retry the boot.
Just saw your note about prefpane so I won't install. I'll use efi.boot menu to select Disk A or Disk B.
[doublepost=1504154617][/doublepost]

Making two SSDs (Disk A and Disk B) with fresh APFS partitions using DU on HS beta 8 with 2.1.9 patcher. Each disk is getting the OS install and post-install patch separately with only one SSD at a time in one SATA slot-there are no other SSDs internal or external in the MP3,1 when setting up each SSD. I'll check that the MP 3,1 will boot correctly with only one SSD in it. After confirming that, I'll install both SSDs in SATA slots 2 and 3 and retry the boot.
Just saw your note about prefpane so I won't install. I'll use efi.boot menu to select Disk A or Disk B.

One SSD built and confirmed booting—now building second SSD
Second SSD built and confirmed booting as single disk.
Now placing both SSDs on slot 2 and 3 to boot again.
I'll post some shots of the RefiND.shell screens when get it going. Have to rig up some sort of tray for second SSD in SATA slot (I normally have SSDs in PCIe card).
Hold on a minute.

Two disks show on boot screen.
Selected one and it booted through efi shell to desktop.
Pictures in a minute after trying to boot second SSD

 

[nekton1]

There is a glitch that the Mac always boots to Disk A no matter which disk is selected at the efi.boot screen or at the Startup Disk in Sys Preferences
[doublepost=1504158668][/doublepost]Just looking at efi shell to see if can select and boot Disk B there
[doublepost=1504158789][/doublepost]So there is some progress in that the MP 3,1 can now boot when there are two APFS SSDs in it but it seems that it is still confused about which SSD is should be booting from.
[doublepost=1504159212][/doublepost]I paused the efi.shell lines and here is a screenshot.

Do you want me to run some terminal command to see what is going on?

[doublepost=1504159480][/doublepost]So in summary, the two disks do appear at the efi.boot screen but no matter which is selected, only Disk A boots.
Disk B does show in the Finder and is accessible.
The efi.shell loads exceedingly fast and I don't see a way of pausing it to select either disk A or disk B.
It is progress of some sort because previously it was impossible to boot with two APFS formatted SSDs in the same Mac.
If you want me to run some terminal commands, please post a list here and I will run them with the results.
[doublepost=1504159701][/doublepost]

There is a glitch that the Mac always boots to Disk A no matter which disk is selected at the efi.boot screen or at the Startup Disk in Sys Preferences
[doublepost=1504158668][/doublepost]Just looking at efi shell to see if can select and boot Disk B there
[doublepost=1504158789][/doublepost]So there is some progress in that the MP 3,1 can now boot when there are two APFS SSDs in it but it seems that it is still confused about which SSD is should be booting from.
[doublepost=1504159212][/doublepost]I paused the efi.shell lines and here is a screenshot.

Do you want me to run some terminal command to see what is going on?

[doublepost=1504159480][/doublepost]So in summary, the two disks do appear at the efi.boot screen but no matter which is selected, only Disk A boots.
Disk B does show in the Finder and is accessible.
The efi.shell loads exceedingly fast and I don't see a way of pausing it to select either disk A or disk B.
It is progress of some sort because previously it was impossible to boot with two APFS formatted SSDs in the same Mac.
If you want me to run some terminal commands, please post a list here and I will run them with the results.

Here is a screenshot of the contents of Disk A and Disk B.

[doublepost=1504159786][/doublepost]If anyone else is awake and watching this, post some terminal commands for me to run.

This is my main machine so I can't leave it like this forever!
[doublepost=1504159908][/doublepost]Startup Disk screenshot. Disk B selected but always boots from Disk A.
[doublepost=1504160012][/doublepost]Or contact me by private conversation.
[doublepost=1504160317][/doublepost]Also note Disk A and Disk B both show as Efi_Boot at efi.boot screen
[doublepost=1504160732][/doublepost]Also notice the Volume UUID is the same for both disks but the Partition UUID is different.

[doublepost=1504160766][/doublepost]Do you guys need anything else?

 

[shaocaholica]

Just got HS beta 7 working on a 2008 MBP (non unibody, old old old). Using DD 2.1.9 patcher. SSD+APFS.

 

[nekton1]

The testing here suggests that for removable media the startup.nsh that resides on those drives isn't used and that one from the internal drives is used instead. Since all removable media lacks the EFI directory present on non-removable media, I suspect that the Apple EFI firmware doesn't expect to see a startup.nsh there either. What would be great is if someone with two spare internal SATA drives can install APFS patched HS on both. Then verify that using the boot selector for each actually boots the correct APFS volume. This would provide a confirmation of the hypothesis that the issue only impacts removable media and that internal drives will always boot their correct startup.nsh.

Tested and it always boots to one of the SSDs but not the other no matter which SSD is selected at efi.boot screen or at Startup disk. See posts on page 40 of this thread.

 

[olad]

An aside. Why, in God's name, did Apple stop making 17-inch MBPs? I am hoping I can lay my hands on the late 2011 MBPs, "the Last of the Mohicans - er - 17MBPs". This one IS slow, but it runs well. APFS can wait. In my 70s, so I got time. Thanks to all who have made this possible.

 

[nekton1]

Then verify that using the boot selector for each actually boots the correct APFS volume.

Tested and it does NOT boot the correct volume. One (Disk A) always boots and the other (Disk B) never does. See posts on page 40.

 

[roziek]

That is what I named the volumes... It does show the actual volume names.

Oh, sorry . Thought they were just generic names the pref pane gave to disks it found.

The testing here suggests that for removable media the startup.nsh that resides on those drives isn't used and that one from the internal drives is used instead. Since all removable media lacks the EFI directory present on non-removable media, I suspect that the Apple EFI firmware doesn't expect to see a startup.nsh there either. What would be great is if someone with two spare internal SATA drives can install APFS patched HS on both. Then verify that using the boot selector for each actually boots the correct APFS volume. This would provide a confirmation of the hypothesis that the issue only impacts removable media and that internal drives will always boot their correct startup.nsh.

I’ll try that as soon as I get the new method to work at all for me. But seems like @nekton1 confirms what you’re saying.

An aside. Why, in God's name, did Apple stop making 17-inch MBPs? I am hoping I can lay my hands on the late 2011 MBPs, "the Last of the Mohicans - er - 17MBPs". This one IS slow, but it runs well. APFS can wait. In my 70s, so I got time. Thanks to all who have made this possible.
View attachment 715259

There was no longer a place for an aircraft carrier in the lineup . With the introduction of 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro, you got 2880x1800 pixel display, compared to your 17-inch’s 1920x1200, and in a slimmer, lighter (more than 2 pounds) body. If that’s not enough for someone, they probably want them to go desktop, get an iMac for example (or an external display to attach to the MacBook Pro).

But I feel your pain. I wish they were still making a Mac Pro. I mean, a true Mac Pro, not that terrible trash can. Anyway, it’s good they finally realized that canning it was a mistake (better late than never, I guess) and they’re cooking something up as we speak. Hopefully, it will be more like our beloved tower Mac Pro, not the trash can, although I doubt that. It will probably be something in between. This new iMac Pro doesn’t cut it, sorry .