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macOS High Sierra (10.13) Unsupported Macs Thread
- Thread starter foxlet
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I will be waiting for final High Sierra release, im not tester, but as i see, there should be no problem to install High Sierra regarding your work.
Compliments gentlemans for your work !
Just a small reactions. How is possible that AFPS is so much slower on unsupported macs ? Is this because of "external AFPS" support (not directly in EFI) or it is just because "beta" ?
Thank you, greetings
Compliments gentlemans for your work !
Just a small reactions. How is possible that AFPS is so much slower on unsupported macs ? Is this because of "external AFPS" support (not directly in EFI) or it is just because "beta" ?
Thank you, greetings
Well that's something I wasn't expecting at all
Is it just because it's the first developer beta? And the they still need to tune the crap of the system for it to perform a hole lot better on APFS ? I mean at least for me it was like the main reason to even try High Sierra in the first place and now we find out it's slower than HFS ? Has anyone seen a video on YouTube or something similar to @foxlet 's test on a supported machine? Or does it preform like that because of the necessary " adjustments " to boot on a unsupported machine?
Apple even made a comparison in the Keynote highlighting how APFS was a lot faster
thanks for that video and work @foxlet
Is that on a SSD or an HDD? APFS is not optimized at all for hdd yet.
Even so, it's the first developer beta. It's going to get better.
Even so, it's the first developer beta. It's going to get better.
As @dosdude1 mentioned previously it's clearly an SSD, as a HDD takes around 4 min to boot according with his tests.
Well that's something I wasn't expecting at all
Is it just because it's the first developer beta? And the they still need to tune the crap of the system for it to perform a hole lot better on APFS ? I mean at least for me it was like the main reason to even try High Sierra in the first place and now we find out it's slower than HFS ? Has anyone seen a video on YouTube or something similar to @foxlet 's test on a supported machine? Or does it preform like that because of the necessary " adjustments " to boot on a unsupported machine?
Apple even made a comparison in the Keynote highlighting how APFS was a lot faster
thanks for that video and work @foxlet
I wouldn't be to worried about preliminary test. Its only the first developer beta
Well that's something I wasn't expecting at all
Is it just because it's the first developer beta? And the they still need to tune the crap of the system for it to perform a hole lot better on APFS ? I mean at least for me it was like the main reason to even try High Sierra in the first place and now we find out it's slower than HFS ? Has anyone seen a video on YouTube or something similar to @foxlet 's test on a supported machine? Or does it preform like that because of the necessary " adjustments " to boot on a unsupported machine?
Apple even made a comparison in the Keynote highlighting how APFS was a lot faster
thanks for that video and work @foxlet
There's two factors involved for boot, how long it takes for EFI to find the APFS disk, and how long it takes for the kernel (once loaded) to mount it inside the macOS system.
The first part (on an unsupported Mac) is done by newCore which is slower than the native Apple method that exists on the firmware of all updated Macs (and it's slower because it essentially does all the firmware modifications on every boot, rather than baking it into firmware). The EFI extensions, however, are from Apple, (and fully compatible with unsupported Macs) so kernel loading is similar speed once the disk is found.
Since there's no technical contest between both newCore and Apple, the second part of the video only concerns the difference after the kernel has started.
The second factor is up to macOS itself, modifications aren't involved. APFS itself involves extra containers and additional metadata that the kernel has to churn through before mounting the OS partition (as well as potential bugs), so compared to HFS that adds additional seconds before any of the relevant services have time to start.
Obviously it is a Developer Beta, so there's still some work left to go through before they are on par or faster. Also note that this only involves boot, once you get into the userland macOS, things are very snappy, more so than HFS!
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It's on a PNY CS1311 SSD, running at SATA II speed.
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Oh ok, once again thanks for the explanation @foxlet. That explains a lot, and why you say we can only ( for now ) test APFS with dual system setup once you release your NewCore 0.2 tool.
So it's doesn't look too good that, if even you or another found a way for example to modify your paticular mac firmware model to boot APFS like a supported machine, this would not necessarily mean that it would work on other models right?
I do see a very positive thing here, like you said once the system is fully loaded on APFS, that the system usage is indeed faster
that's very good to know!
Oh ok, once again thanks for the explanation @foxlet. That explains a lot, and why you say we can only ( for now ) test APFS with dual system setup once you release your NewCore 0.2 tool.
So it's doesn't look too good that, if even you or another found a way for example to modify your paticular mac firmware model to boot APFS like a supported machine, this would not necessarily mean that it would work on other models right?
I do see a very positive thing here, like you said once the system is fully loaded on APFS, that the system usage is indeed faster
You don't need a dual system to boot APFS, Sierra is only required for installation (you can boot it externally and have a whole APFS disk that way). The APFS boot system itself runs off the ESP partition (hidden by default under macOS). Baking the needed extensions to firmware means that it has to be ported to every unsupported Mac, and that assumes every firmware ROM has enough space to fit the extra software.
For those of us still having issues with the backlight not working, I put together a small app which will set the backlight whenever the screen is unlocked.
This works for my specific use-case whereby the screensaver comes on and locks before the screen turns off.
I've tested this on my iMac 2009 (iMac 9,1), and it seems to work fine. The screen immediately brightens when you unlock.
This should also do the same thing when the screensaver is disabled (although I've not tested this).
I have a test version that should do the same thing on 'Wake', but it doesn't seem to always work, which is annoying.
When you first launch, it will set the screen brightness to 50%.
Please bear in mind that I'm not a Mac or iOS developer, so Objective-C is not my forte.
Edit 1:
* Updated to change brightness when the slider is slid, not just when you release the mouse.
* Updated to not allow a brightness of 0 (minimum is 10%, maximum is 95% as above or below that turn my backlight off).
* Attached source code, in case you want to modify. It's a very simple app, and it should be noted that prior to last night, my previous experience with Xcode was over 6 years ago. (And I wasn't and still am not a Mac or iOS developer)
This works for my specific use-case whereby the screensaver comes on and locks before the screen turns off.
I've tested this on my iMac 2009 (iMac 9,1), and it seems to work fine. The screen immediately brightens when you unlock.
This should also do the same thing when the screensaver is disabled (although I've not tested this).
I have a test version that should do the same thing on 'Wake', but it doesn't seem to always work, which is annoying.
When you first launch, it will set the screen brightness to 50%.
Please bear in mind that I'm not a Mac or iOS developer, so Objective-C is not my forte.
Edit 1:
* Updated to change brightness when the slider is slid, not just when you release the mouse.
* Updated to not allow a brightness of 0 (minimum is 10%, maximum is 95% as above or below that turn my backlight off).
* Attached source code, in case you want to modify. It's a very simple app, and it should be noted that prior to last night, my previous experience with Xcode was over 6 years ago. (And I wasn't and still am not a Mac or iOS developer)
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cool!
1) can you post the code?
2) can you make 0% on slider not be 0 because then you can't see anything to change it
3) can you make it change when you MOVE the slider not just let go of the mouse?
So best case scenario we better get used too a little longer boots
but a snappier system usage Does that mean after we install high sierra on a APFS partition and have it up and running, we can delete the sierra partion? And unify the whole hardrive? Or Is that going to mess it up ?
Thanks for everything!
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Anyone with MacBook5,2! What is mean trackpad detected as a mouse? No trackpad configuration in System Preferences? Or just the multitouch gestures not working? So what's working on MB5,2's trackpad?
Heh...just for 5#it's and giggles, loading HS on my MB5,2. We'll see what else breaks (beyond the trackpad and brightness controls on Sierra).
Edit: Hmm. Hit an interesting race condition. Think they may have made some changes to 2FA. I was prompted on the Mac Mini (still running Sierra) to enter my iCloud password, on top of 2FA, to allow an iCloud login from the 5,2 MacBook. Then it told me my iCloud account was locked out and forced me to change my iCloud password.
....and the iCloud login is still having issues on the 5,2 - still have in iCloud Settings under preferences - Update Apple ID Settings - Some account services require you to sign in again - even though I have..... buggy.
Also, no battery indicator here on the 5,2, as with my 4,1 (but, for some reason Czo does have it on his 4,1.....weird).
So everyone's aware - have HS on my MBP 4,1 as well as (now) this MB 5,2 with Sierra still on my Mac Mini. Heh. Now I'll boot up the MBP 4,1 to see what the status of its iCloud connection is...
Edit: Hmm. Hit an interesting race condition. Think they may have made some changes to 2FA. I was prompted on the Mac Mini (still running Sierra) to enter my iCloud password, on top of 2FA, to allow an iCloud login from the 5,2 MacBook. Then it told me my iCloud account was locked out and forced me to change my iCloud password.
....and the iCloud login is still having issues on the 5,2 - still have in iCloud Settings under preferences - Update Apple ID Settings - Some account services require you to sign in again - even though I have..... buggy.
Also, no battery indicator here on the 5,2, as with my 4,1 (but, for some reason Czo does have it on his 4,1.....weird).
So everyone's aware - have HS on my MBP 4,1 as well as (now) this MB 5,2 with Sierra still on my Mac Mini. Heh. Now I'll boot up the MBP 4,1 to see what the status of its iCloud connection is...
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Okay, swapped the OWC 240Gig Electra 3 SSD for a 480 Gig Electra 6 SSD last night & restored to 10.12.5 via Time machine overnight. So, I've got plenty of room on "Macintosh HD" now!
Have not seen an option for downloading the HS beta in the App Store yet - will keep looking for it.
I'll keep reading - and, thanks for all you do here!
Cheers!
Have not seen an option for downloading the HS beta in the App Store yet - will keep looking for it.
I'll keep reading - and, thanks for all you do here!
Cheers!
The links are on page 4. It doesn’t look like 0.2 is ready yet
Right click doesnt work. You have to use Option + Click on trackpad.
Well, I think the race condition was caused by the low RAM situation with the 5,2 - took the 4GB out (gave it to a friend for his mini) and dropped it down to the original 2GB a bit ago. The iCloud setup just has too much churn for this little machine. It did eventually sort itself out.
No change to the brightness control / trackpad issues on the 5,2 with HS - they persist (as expected). The system is very noticeably slower on DP1 than on Sierra. Apps take longer to load. (and it's running on an SSD, not the original 5400RPM spinner).
No change to the brightness control / trackpad issues on the 5,2 with HS - they persist (as expected). The system is very noticeably slower on DP1 than on Sierra. Apps take longer to load. (and it's running on an SSD, not the original 5400RPM spinner).
Essentially, the trackpad on the MacBook 5,2 is not detected as a trackpad by the system, it is only detected as a regular USB mouse. Because of this, you cannot change settings for the trackpad, such as enabling 2-finger right click.
1) Yes. Note: I'm not a Mac or iOS developer and before last night, I haven't used Xcode for 5+ years
2) Sure. On my iMac '0' just turns off the backlight, but not the actual display. Regardless, minimum is now 10%
3) Yes. Done.
Edit: I updated the original post with an updated version and the source code. You can see the bit for capturing sleep notifications which is currently commented out.
It is definitely not free space, I have 300GB of it, and I get this annoying 5MB installer shell.
I thought ok, maybe file vault encryption, so it can load it directly, disabled it, but no, still get the stupid 5MB installer shell.
I'm right now in Spain without a high bandwidth internet connection. I could download it in 5h or so, but the 5MB shell installer thing has no pause or resume function. I tried 20 times, if it would be a regular download I would long downloaded it 5 times over, ... !!!
One thought: maybe Apple is giving people who ever logged in with a VMWare macos or mackintosh this installer shell thing to make it more annoying / difficult to create an install image?
Installed it late yesterday afternoon. Checked back an hour later and found it was caught in a loop where it kept restarting. (Kernel panic?) After 5 restarts, I forced a restart from a Sierra USB drive and restored the system from a 5PM TimeMachine backup.
Working fine as 10.12.5 again - I'll try again another time.
Working fine as 10.12.5 again - I'll try again another time.
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You're right, it isn't just determined by free space. The download got stuck on the MacBook Pro and I had to cancel, trying again resulted in only the 7.8 MB installer app.
When I tried yet again AFTER I had successfully installed Sierra, then I was finally able to download the full one.
As someone who keeps offline backups of every Mac App Store major OS X version (easy to install whichever one I need), I definitely find this change to be a bit of an annoyance. Would be nice to be guaranteed the full installer instead of the bare one.
Also wonder if anyone has tried createinstallmedia with the 7.8 MB installer app. Does it download the OS portion or simply fail to work?