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tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,544
612
San Diego, CA
I can’t believe 7-eleven is better organized in a third world country than in it is the US. Here in Mexico all 7-eleven stores have ipp320’s and they all have contactless enabled. They all accept apple pay just fine despite it still not being officially supported in the country (official support is just coming later this year).

I wouldn't really characterize US 7-Elevens as a "mess". They seem to consistently not support anything other than swipe outside (at those with gas pumps) and consistently support contactless inside, at least around here. There's only one (that I know of) here with MX915s instead of iPP350s, too--which coincidentally is also the only one I know of here that does EMV at the pump.

The only ones that I'd consider "different" are the ones in the Oklahoma-ish area that used to be owned by a different company, but I imagine those will end up switching over to what the others are doing if they haven't done so already.
 

zorinlynx

macrumors G3
May 31, 2007
8,347
18,564
Florida, USA
What's wild is, a gas station near me was completely torn up and rebuilt! But they reinstalled the same gas pumps at before, still with no NFC payment options.

You'd think a teardown and rebuild would be the time to upgrade the gas pumps, but apparently not.
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,544
612
San Diego, CA
What's wild is, a gas station near me was completely torn up and rebuilt! But they reinstalled the same gas pumps at before, still with no NFC payment options.

You'd think a teardown and rebuild would be the time to upgrade the gas pumps, but apparently not.

There's a Mobil down the street from me that converted to that brand last year. In the process, they ripped out their pumps and completely replaced them but only installed chip readers, no NFC ones. It's one of the reasons why I think ExxonMobil doesn't really care about NFC much (however, I don't think they outright prohibit it as many do support it inside and there are a few that have the readers outside too).
 

Steve.P.JobsFan

macrumors 65816
Jan 27, 2010
1,010
613
Columbus
With 7-Eleven buying Speedway, I’m curious to see what happens as a significant number of Speedway stations (at least here in Ohio, their home turf) have NFC at the pump.
 

svanstrom

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2002
787
1,745
🇸🇪
Not sure how 🇺🇸 somehow has made it some sort of legitimate business strategy to block getting paid by certain means. 😂

I remember when Apple first launched Apple Pay and people talked about businesses in 🇺🇸 where it just worked, and then some chains specifically went out of their way to block Apple Pay.
 

ecschwarz

macrumors 65816
Jun 28, 2010
1,435
356
Not sure how 🇺🇸 somehow has made it some sort of legitimate business strategy to block getting paid by certain means. 😂

I remember when Apple first launched Apple Pay and people talked about businesses in 🇺🇸 where it just worked, and then some chains specifically went out of their way to block Apple Pay.

I think it's laziness/avoiding costs in many cases—businesses that have custom systems that already have contact EMV (chip) enabled don't want to make the effort get contactless EMV enabled (many gas stations). There's also flaky custom terminal software (way more of the mx915/925/similar Ingenico units with some sort of merchant-specific software compared with other countries that have simple PIN pads). It worked at Home Depot early on, except with some Mastercards, and rather than fix the issue, Home Depot just turned off contactless.

Many small businesses work just fine with it because they're using a POS solution that has all the interfaces fired up and ready to go.

The other side of things are the large businesses that are pushing something else, like Walmart and Kroger. "Hey, people like paying with their phones, but what if we made them use our system and we can eventually wean them off credit cards?"

@tmiw can always weigh in on the bigger picture things, too.
 

svanstrom

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2002
787
1,745
🇸🇪
I think it's laziness/avoiding costs in many cases—businesses that have custom systems that already have contact EMV (chip) enabled don't want to make the effort get contactless EMV enabled (many gas stations). There's also flaky custom terminal software (way more of the mx915/925/similar Ingenico units with some sort of merchant-specific software compared with other countries that have simple PIN pads). It worked at Home Depot early on, except with some Mastercards, and rather than fix the issue, Home Depot just turned off contactless.

Many small businesses work just fine with it because they're using a POS solution that has all the interfaces fired up and ready to go.

The other side of things are the large businesses that are pushing something else, like Walmart and Kroger. "Hey, people like paying with their phones, but what if we made them use our system and we can eventually wean them off credit cards?"

@tmiw can always weigh in on the bigger picture things, too.
This just reminded me about when I in the late 90s went to 🇺🇸 and was seriously confused how the duck they could allow me to pay by card without requiring a PIN code. That insecure crap seemed dangerous, and ridiculously expensive for businesses as I imagined all the possible fraud/theft.
 

lartola

macrumors 68020
Feb 10, 2017
2,161
1,081
This just reminded me about when I in the late 90s went to 🇺🇸 and was seriously confused how the duck they could allow me to pay by card without requiring a PIN code. That insecure crap seemed dangerous, and ridiculously expensive for businesses as I imagined all the possible fraud/theft.
And 🇺🇸 still refuses to require pin for credit cards. They eliminated signatures in 2018 but did not replace them with PIN or anything else.
 

lartola

macrumors 68020
Feb 10, 2017
2,161
1,081
I think it's laziness/avoiding costs in many cases—businesses that have custom systems that already have contact EMV (chip) enabled don't want to make the effort get contactless EMV enabled (many gas stations). There's also flaky custom terminal software (way more of the mx915/925/similar Ingenico units with some sort of merchant-specific software compared with other countries that have simple PIN pads). It worked at Home Depot early on, except with some Mastercards, and rather than fix the issue, Home Depot just turned off contactless.

Many small businesses work just fine with it because they're using a POS solution that has all the interfaces fired up and ready to go.

The other side of things are the large businesses that are pushing something else, like Walmart and Kroger. "Hey, people like paying with their phones, but what if we made them use our system and we can eventually wean them off credit cards?"

@tmiw can always weigh in on the bigger picture things, too.
They do it because they want to get all the information they can about their paying customers for marketing purposes, and Apple Pay and the like prevent them from doing so. Proof of this is the fact that many of those holdout retailers such as Walmart, CVS or Home Depot already accepted NFC contactless payments back in 2014 and purposefully shut off their nfc readers when Apple Pay came out later that year because they didn’t want to accept it. It’s not like they were lazy or avoiding costs: they had already done the work and invested the money but took a step back just to block apple pay. Walmart has gone even further: they recently also blocked Samsung Pay via MST (magnetic stripe) too at all their US stores.
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,544
612
San Diego, CA
With 7-Eleven buying Speedway, I’m curious to see what happens as a significant number of Speedway stations (at least here in Ohio, their home turf) have NFC at the pump.

Regardless of any deal, they'll need to install something in the next few months to avoid the upcoming liability shift in April. So far, I haven't seen any movement at any of the 7-Elevens here with gas pumps (other than the one that I know of here that doesn't support contactless inside but does support EMV outside). Considering that I've heard noises about some sort of pay within an app type deal similar to what ExxonMobil and Shell have, that may be what they're going with at least as a stopgap.

I think it's laziness/avoiding costs in many cases—businesses that have custom systems that already have contact EMV (chip) enabled don't want to make the effort get contactless EMV enabled (many gas stations). There's also flaky custom terminal software (way more of the mx915/925/similar Ingenico units with some sort of merchant-specific software compared with other countries that have simple PIN pads). It worked at Home Depot early on, except with some Mastercards, and rather than fix the issue, Home Depot just turned off contactless.

Many small businesses work just fine with it because they're using a POS solution that has all the interfaces fired up and ready to go.

The other side of things are the large businesses that are pushing something else, like Walmart and Kroger. "Hey, people like paying with their phones, but what if we made them use our system and we can eventually wean them off credit cards?"

@tmiw can always weigh in on the bigger picture things, too.

That's basically the gist of it. There's also the issue of many simply not liking the card networks enough to do more than the bare minimum (which considering the US market is still pretty much just insert and swipe), though there's not exactly a viable alternative for them at the moment either (other than debit, but many businesses--especially smaller ones--dislike even that).

And honestly, when many have painted themselves into such a corner that they have no choice but to be certified for up to six EMV contactless kernels (vs. just 1-3* contact kernels depending on if debit and/or UnionPay is also supported), I kinda get why they'd hold out as long as possible. It's why more than a few only bothered when the pandemic made waiting less viable.

* Debit isn't its own kernel per se but there are enough variations over credit EMV in the US that it can require significant effort on its own. UnionPay uses the PBOC standard too, not EMV.

This just reminded me about when I in the late 90s went to 🇺🇸 and was seriously confused how the duck they could allow me to pay by card without requiring a PIN code. That insecure crap seemed dangerous, and ridiculously expensive for businesses as I imagined all the possible fraud/theft.

And 🇺🇸 still refuses to require pin for credit cards. They eliminated signatures in 2018 but did not replace them with PIN or anything else.

Eh, I recently lost one of my physical cards and noticed before someone could use it. It was literally just a ~5min phone call to get it canceled and a new one sent. Best of all, that card updated on my phone while I was still on the call and was usable for NFC until the new one arrived.

That combined with the fact that contactless is now close to being the standard outside the US (if not there already) that I can see why we wouldn't bother with PIN. There's a chance it'd be a much different story had it been a decade earlier and there was no alternative; for instance, I could see PIN being supported far more often on cards, even if only as an "if all else fails" measure for international compatibility rather than something expected to be used domestically.

They do it because they want to get all the information they can about their paying customers for marketing purposes, and Apple Pay and the like prevent them from doing so. Proof of this is the fact that many of those holdout retailers such as Walmart, CVS or Home Depot already accepted NFC contactless payments back in 2014 and purposefully shut off their nfc readers when Apple Pay came out later that year because they didn’t want to accept it. It’s not like they were lazy or avoiding costs: they had already done the work and invested the money but took a step back just to block apple pay. Walmart has gone even further: they recently also blocked Samsung Pay via MST (magnetic stripe) too at all their US stores.

As mentioned before, this likely isn't the biggest reason considering that many of the remaining holdouts have other ways of collecting data (for instance, their own preexisting loyalty programs). Support of NFC also doesn't preclude continuing use of those programs, even if only via barcode/QR or phone number entry.
 
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svanstrom

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2002
787
1,745
🇸🇪
I recently lost one of my physical cards and noticed before someone could use it. It was literally just a ~5min phone call to get it canceled
Good for you; if it had been professional pickpockets your account would have been emptied in less than 5 minutes (and here I'm actually completely ignoring that you don't instantly notice when the cards go missing).

So I'd rather have PIN code protection instead of nothing.
 

lartola

macrumors 68020
Feb 10, 2017
2,161
1,081
Regardless of any deal, they'll need to install something in the next few months to avoid the upcoming liability shift in April. So far, I haven't seen any movement at any of the 7-Elevens here with gas pumps (other than the one that I know of here that doesn't support contactless inside but does support EMV outside). Considering that I've heard noises about some sort of pay within an app type deal similar to what ExxonMobil and Shell have, that may be what they're going with at least as a stopgap.



That's basically the gist of it. There's also the issue of many simply not liking the card networks enough to do more than the bare minimum (which considering the US market is still pretty much just insert and swipe), though there's not exactly a viable alternative for them at the moment either (other than debit, but many businesses--especially smaller ones--dislike even that).

And honestly, when many have painted themselves into such a corner that they have no choice but to be certified for up to six EMV contactless kernels (vs. just 1-3* contact kernels depending on if debit and/or UnionPay is also supported), I kinda get why they'd hold out as long as possible. It's why more than a few only bothered when the pandemic made waiting less viable.

* Debit isn't its own kernel per se but there are enough variations over credit EMV in the US that it can require significant effort on its own. UnionPay uses the PBOC standard too, not EMV.





Eh, I recently lost one of my physical cards and noticed before someone could use it. It was literally just a ~5min phone call to get it canceled and a new one sent. Best of all, that card updated on my phone while I was still on the call and was usable for NFC until the new one arrived.

That combined with the fact that contactless is now close to being the standard outside the US (if not there already) that I can see why we wouldn't bother with PIN. There's a chance it'd be a much different story had it been a decade earlier and there was no alternative; for instance, I could see PIN being supported far more often on cards, even if only as an "if all else fails" measure for international compatibility rather than something expected to be used domestically.



As mentioned before, this likely isn't the biggest reason considering that many of the remaining holdouts have other ways of collecting data (for instance, their own preexisting loyalty programs). Support of NFC also doesn't preclude continuing use of those programs, even if only via barcode/QR or phone number entry.
But those stores already had contactless in place back in 2014 and shut it off intentionally when Apple Pay came out just to avoid accepting. It’s not like they never had it and don’t want to invest in enabling it. Support for NFC is already there at those stores, but it’s turned off.

In any case I think those stores will continue to hold out for the years to come unless the networks corner them by requiring that either they turn on nfc or give up accepting credit and debit cards altogether, which is extremely unlikely to happen in the near future. And consumers are partly to blame on that: in the US, Mexico and other countries where contactless cards never really took off (as opposed to what happened in Europe) and contactless payment has expanded mostly after the arrival of mobile wallets, consumers see NFC as an added bonus offered by some stores and don’t mind shopping at places that lack it if those places have lower prices and/or good discounts. That behavior leads these holdout merchants to be able to survive without accepting contactless payments unless they had no other choice but to accept them.
 
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tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,544
612
San Diego, CA
But those stores already had contactless in place back in 2014 and shut it off intentionally when Apple Pay came out just to avoid accepting. It’s not like they never had it and don’t want to invest in enabling it. Support for NFC already there at those stores, but it’s turned off.

It's also possible that many didn't even realize they still had it on given the lack of use prior to Apple Pay being released. Then, once they realized it was, moved quickly to ensure they still satisfied the agreements they entered into with MCX, etc. Keep in mind that some MCX members (like Walmart) never had it enabled in the first place.

Also, disabling it entirely might have even be a better option than keeping it semi-working. For instance, would it really be a good experience to have MC contactless be broken (in the case of Home Depot) while having other cards work fine? Especially if a fix wasn't going to immediately be forthcoming (or possibly desired in the first place if contactless wasn't supposed to be enabled).

Good for you; if it had been professional pickpockets your account would have been emptied in less than 5 minutes (and here I'm actually completely ignoring that you don't instantly notice when the cards go missing).

So I'd rather have PIN code protection instead of nothing.

I mean, ideally we would have gone all the way and just required PIN when we got chip, but without a government mandate there was no way most banks here would have willingly done it--especially with the environment that existed back in 2014-15, let alone now. Hell, I'm not sure certain subsets of merchants would have been okay with it, either.

Plus, I can easily imagine a scenario where US cards would effectively still be a generation behind (as banks do chip and PIN as required by law but still don't bother with contactless given that it "failed" the first time, either hoping that we just use Apple Pay and similar or simply accepting that NFC will never be a thing). I'm not sure that's much better from an interoperability standpoint, IMO, especially as there are actually contactless-only readers out there now.

Not to mention that PIN generally isn't needed for contactless in other markets, dramatically reducing its effectiveness if the contactless limit is set high enough to allow the majority of everyday transactions to use it.

(BTW, even if someone had used my card before I could call in, federal law/regulations do guarantee that I wouldn't have been liable. Debit fraud is a bit more complicated vs. CC fraud and might have taken longer to resolve but many of the same protections would still have applied. That's probably one of the few good things about the US banking system, IMO, and likely one of the reasons why we're not still mainly a cash-based society now.)
 

AZhappyjack

Suspended
Jul 3, 2011
10,184
23,659
Happy Jack, AZ
They do it because they want to get all the information they can about their paying customers for marketing purposes, and Apple Pay and the like prevent them from doing so. Proof of this is the fact that many of those holdout retailers such as Walmart, CVS or Home Depot already accepted NFC contactless payments back in 2014 and purposefully shut off their nfc readers when Apple Pay came out later that year because they didn’t want to accept it. It’s not like they were lazy or avoiding costs: they had already done the work and invested the money but took a step back just to block apple pay. Walmart has gone even further: they recently also blocked Samsung Pay via MST (magnetic stripe) too at all their US stores.

I totally agree... but CVS takes ApplePay, at least in the Phoenix area... I just used it yesterday.
 

svanstrom

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2002
787
1,745
🇸🇪
Not to mention that PIN generally isn't needed for contactless in other markets
There's usually a very low limit for PINless transactions, so you might do an order at Starbucks without using your PIN; but every now and then it asks for a PIN anyways, just to make sure no one's trying to get away with lots of under-the-limit transactions.
 

lartola

macrumors 68020
Feb 10, 2017
2,161
1,081
I totally agree... but CVS takes ApplePay, at least in the Phoenix area... I just used it yesterday.
yeah, now they do because in 2018 they relented and turned back on their nfc readers, but they used to be members of the MCX group and for at least four years they did hold out of nfc and didn’t take apple pay at any of their stores.
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,544
612
San Diego, CA
There's usually a very low limit for PINless transactions, so you might do an order at Starbucks without using your PIN; but every now and then it asks for a PIN anyways, just to make sure no one's trying to get away with lots of under-the-limit transactions.

In Australia, for instance, the limit was AU$100 prior to the pandemic. Many other countries increased their limits over the last year to at least the equivalent of US$100 if not up to $200, and there's a good chance much of that increase will remain permanent even after the pandemic's over. That could easily cover most people's purchases to the point where PIN use becomes uncommon.

Not to mention that Apple Pay and similar bypass those limits entirely and allow purchases for unlimited amounts (well, as long as you don't exceed your bank account balance/credit limit, anyway).
 

cub850G2

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2014
290
30
NE
Well Dollar General seems to be gradually rolling out contactless support on the iSC480's: It has the same UI as the Lane/7000 self checkout locations. So when they need to retire the iSC480s they can easily install the Lane/7000s. I checked my local DG locations and neither have the new software yet. DG has like 17000 locations so its going to take some time to rollout.
 
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lartola

macrumors 68020
Feb 10, 2017
2,161
1,081
Well Dollar General seems to be gradually rolling out contactless support on the iSC480's: It has the same UI as the Lane/7000 self checkout locations. So when they need to retire the iSC480s they can easily install the Lane/7000s. I checked my local DG locations and neither have the new software yet. DG has like 17000 locations so its going to take some time to rollout.
Oh, I didn’t know the isc touch 480s had a built in nfc reader on the bottom to the left of the keypad like that one shown above (or maybe it’s under the screen?). A chain of pharmacies has those pinpads here in Mexico, but they have the nfc reader on the top, look:
01D37FB4-0181-43E7-87B3-4A3EE917B693.jpeg
 

ecschwarz

macrumors 65816
Jun 28, 2010
1,435
356
Oh, I didn’t know the isc touch 480s had a built in nfc reader on the bottom to the left of the keypad like that one shown above (or maybe it’s under the screen?). A chain of pharmacies has those pinpads here in Mexico, but they have the nfc reader on the top, look:
I think all the recent Ingenico and Verifone units have built-in readers (iSC Touch 250, iSC Touch 480, mx915, mx925, m400, Lane series), but you can add an optional external unit. I don't know if it really helps for signal, but it does make it way more obvious to *tap in this area*.

There are some pictures of the iSC Touch 480 with both the sticker to the left of the keypad and an external antenna, so I'm guessing it's up to the merchant how they want to configure it.
 

tmiw

macrumors 68030
Jun 26, 2007
2,544
612
San Diego, CA
I think all the recent Ingenico and Verifone units have built-in readers (iSC Touch 250, iSC Touch 480, mx915, mx925, m400, Lane series), but you can add an optional external unit. I don't know if it really helps for signal, but it does make it way more obvious to *tap in this area*.

There are some pictures of the iSC Touch 480 with both the sticker to the left of the keypad and an external antenna, so I'm guessing it's up to the merchant how they want to configure it.

I'm not even sure the latest gen models from both companies even have external attachments available for purchase anymore; I've yet to see one of those with such, anyway. Then again, they also seem to handle contactless in general better than the last-gen models.
 
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lostom

macrumors regular
Nov 11, 2010
227
157
There's usually a very low limit for PINless transactions, so you might do an order at Starbucks without using your PIN; but every now and then it asks for a PIN anyways, just to make sure no one's trying to get away with lots of under-the-limit transactions.
In Australia, in general it's $100, some traders increased that too $200 during covid.
 

cub850G2

macrumors 6502
Nov 15, 2014
290
30
NE
I just added Shake Shack and Raising Cane's both which use FreedomPay Lane/3000 pinpads with everything enabled.
 
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