Major Retailers that Support NFC Payments

[lartola]

Never heard of any of those besides Ruth Chris, and I've only eaten there once in my life. And none of the ones in my list are fast food, except for maybe Cici's but that's more buffet than fast food.

Johnny Rockets is fast food too (burgers), and Panera is a cafeteria like starbucks where you order and pay at the front before you go sit at a table. All the others you mentioned are all casual dining, not fine dining. The ones I mentioned are all fine dining restaurant chains, a couple of which belong to a huge nationwide group of restaurants called Landry’s.

 

[Böhme417]

Johnny Rockets is fast food too (burgers), and Panera is a cafeteria like starbucks where you order and pay at the front before you go sit at a table. All the others you mentioned are all casual dining, not fine dining. The ones I mentioned are all fine dining restaurant chains, a couple of which belong to a huge nationwide group of restaurants called Landry’s.

Did you just call Carrabba’s fine dining? 😂

 

[echopulse]

Johnny Rockets is fast food too (burgers), and Panera is a cafeteria like starbucks where you order and pay at the front before you go sit at a table. All the others you mentioned are all casual dining, not fine dining. The ones I mentioned are all fine dining restaurant chains, a couple of which belong to a huge nationwide group of restaurants called Landry’s.

Johhny Rockets is more cafe than fast food, as you order from the bar area. And Panera Bread is fast causal, not fast food. But your right they don't use waiters to bring your check, so I'll take them off the list.

 

[tmiw]

Not exactly a retailer but Wells Fargo ATMs now allow you to tap for cards from other banks if you're willing to pay the $3 ATM fee (or if your bank reimburses those). As far as I can tell, the other major banks with NFC readers still only enable them for their own cards.

 

[echopulse]

Johnny Rockets is fast food too (burgers), and Panera is a cafeteria like starbucks where you order and pay at the front before you go sit at a table. All the others you mentioned are all casual dining, not fine dining. The ones I mentioned are all fine dining restaurant chains, a couple of which belong to a huge nationwide group of restaurants called Landry’s.

I only recognized 3 of those resturants. Bubba Gump Shrimp, Joe's Crab Shack, and Rainforest Cafe. None of those places are anywhere near where I live.

 

[erihp]

So Apple Pay on the phone and watch, which I read is so popular with consumers in the US, cannot be used in the vast majority of restaurants?

Typically in the USA the nicer and more upscale the establishment is the less likely someone is shoving you a handheld order taker at the end of your meal.

Despite the security and convenience Apple Pay offers, I prefer this. I shouldnt have to play cashier and handle some dirty and cumbersome device at the end of an expensive meal at a classy place. Whats next, having me bus my own table?

I also dont use self check outs at the grocery store. I dont work there, why am I being employed to do a job they are actively paying other people in the aisle over to do? Incentivize a discount for doing so, and I might consider it.

 

[tmiw]

Typically in the USA the nicer and more upscale the establishment is the less likely someone is shoving you a handheld order taker at the end of your meal.

Despite the security and convenience Apple Pay offers, I prefer this. I shouldnt have to play cashier and handle some dirty and cumbersome device at the end of an expensive meal at a classy place. Whats next, having me bus my own table?

In my experience it's pretty uncommon regardless of how upscale a restaurant is. If anything, it might be slightly more common at more upscale places (but that's not saying much).

 

[erihp]

In my experience it's pretty uncommon regardless of how upscale a restaurant is. If anything, it might be slightly more common at more upscale places (but that's not saying much).

I mean actually upscale, one off restaurants, not corporate chains.

The kinds of places that require reservation, walk your drinks from the bar to your table for you and pull your chair out for you. The kind of places that wipe the crumbs off your table mid meal and fold/replace your cloth napkin when you get up to goto the washroom arent doing business with Toast order takers and shoving a screen in your face during your intimate dessert course.

At Outback Steakhouse, yeah, sure.

 

[tmiw]

I mean actually upscale, one off restaurants, not corporate chains.

The kinds of places that require reservation, walk your drinks from the bar to your table for you and pull your chair out for you. The kind of places that wipe the crumbs off your table mid meal and fold/replace your cloth napkin when you get up to goto the washroom arent doing business with Toast order takers and shoving a screen in your face during your intimate dessert course.

At Outback Steakhouse, yeah, sure.

While rare, I've eaten at some pretty expensive places before. And at least one or two of those brought the terminal to the table at the end of the meal, so it's hardly something that only supposed "lower end" places do.

That said, I still maintain that pay at the table is pretty uncommon in the US no matter what kind of restaurant it is. If a restaurant offers some kind of pay at the table at all, more often than not it's some QR code you have to scan on the receipt (and hope the web interface works well enough to let you use Apple Pay inside Safari on your phone). Which is better than nothing, don't get me wrong, but it's still not ideal.

 

[lartola]

Typically in the USA the nicer and more upscale the establishment is the less likely someone is shoving you a handheld order taker at the end of your meal.

Despite the security and convenience Apple Pay offers, I prefer this. I shouldnt have to play cashier and handle some dirty and cumbersome device at the end of an expensive meal at a classy place. Whats next, having me bus my own table?

I also dont use self check outs at the grocery store. I dont work there, why am I being employed to do a job they are actively paying other people in the aisle over to do? Incentivize a discount for doing so, and I might consider it.

And you don’t mind having your card out of your sight for several minutes? I’m entirely uncomfortable with that by now, besides it’s an outdated procedure that’s been abandoned everywhere but the USA.

 

[lartola]

I mean actually upscale, one off restaurants, not corporate chains.

The kinds of places that require reservation, walk your drinks from the bar to your table for you and pull your chair out for you. The kind of places that wipe the crumbs off your table mid meal and fold/replace your cloth napkin when you get up to goto the washroom arent doing business with Toast order takers and shoving a screen in your face during your intimate dessert course.

At Outback Steakhouse, yeah, sure.

The problem is that american restaurants refuse to do it the right way: in the rest of the world you don’t see those tablets, but rather you order and eat the usual way and at the end instead of taking the card the waiter/waitress just brings over a small card reader such as this one:

which they also operate for you and all you do is insert your card (or tap your card/phone/watch) and maybe enter your pin if necessary. However, not a single restaurant in the US does this; they simply refuse to evolve past 1999 except for the few that have the bulky tablets on the tables.

 

[waw74]

However, not a single restaurant in the US does this; they simply refuse to evolve past 1999 except for the few that have the bulky tablets on the tables.

I live in New York City. Most of the bars and restaurants now have these. and have for a year or 2.
Last I checked we were in the US.

 

[lartola]

I live in New York City. Most of the bars and restaurants now have these. and have for a year or 2.
Last I checked we were in the US.

Yeah, but new york is more european-style. That isn’t happening in the rest of the US.

 

[ecschwarz]

Yeah, but new york is more european-style. That isn’t happening in the rest of the US.

I'd argue that it's slowly happening, but maybe not with the handheld Ingenico or Verifone units popular in Canada, Europe, etc. In the past couple of years, I've seen more and more of the Toast Go units in places around me (in the middle of Indiana of all places). It seems that the sit-down chains and more "formal" locations still opt for taking the card, but that might also be the cost of shifting to new hardware. A one-off or local chain can deploy a fleet of new units with their planned POS upgrades.

I'd also guess that the chains that are using the tablets see them as an advertising/upsell mechanism, much like how US retailers seem to prefer the large-screen terminals with custom software.

 

[lartola]

I'd argue that it's slowly happening, but maybe not with the handheld Ingenico or Verifone units popular in Canada, Europe, etc. In the past couple of years, I've seen more and more of the Toast Go units in places around me (in the middle of Indiana of all places). It seems that the sit-down chains and more "formal" locations still opt for taking the card, but that might also be the cost of shifting to new hardware. A one-off or local chain can deploy a fleet of new units with their planned POS upgrades.

I'd also guess that the chains that are using the tablets see them as an advertising/upsell mechanism, much like how US retailers seem to prefer the large-screen terminals with custom software.

The problem with the toast go units is that they’re tablets where you not only pay but also place your order. The sit down chains and more formal restaurants will NEVER adopt those because they make the tables look cluttered, not to mention that the service is part of what they sell to the public. Therefore, unless those chains and formal places start adopting the small verifone and ingenico wireless card readers popular in Europe, Canada, Mexico, etc they’ll never move on past taking cards away as if it were still 1999.

As for the cost, that’s not the cost of shifting to new hardware it’s the cost of their idiocy. They could (and should) have shifted to wireless POS when they upgraded to chip, but they were stupid enough to buy the same wired pinpads used by stores instead. And they got away with it because in the US restaurants aren’t being held liable for fraudulent charges due to taking cards away, unlike restaurants in the rest of the world.

 

[tmiw]

I'd argue that it's slowly happening, but maybe not with the handheld Ingenico or Verifone units popular in Canada, Europe, etc. In the past couple of years, I've seen more and more of the Toast Go units in places around me (in the middle of Indiana of all places). It seems that the sit-down chains and more "formal" locations still opt for taking the card, but that might also be the cost of shifting to new hardware. A one-off or local chain can deploy a fleet of new units with their planned POS upgrades.

I think there are a few factors involved:

1. Wireless terminals (at least from traditional players) still being way more expensive than they should be--especially since chip and signature makes them not strictly required.
2. Online shopping being way more of a thing by the time the US finally transitioned (vs. a lot of other places). That effectively made stuff like paying online in advance (e.g. for pizza delivery) and QR codes on restaurant receipts more viable than they would have been elsewhere.

Those seem to explain the following that I've experienced, anyway:

1. Pizza delivery generally NOT having wireless terminals at all. You either pay with card online at the time you order, or cash when they arrive.
2. Restaurants generally not having pay at the table (or if they do, it's either a QR code thing or something like Toast or Square geared towards smaller restaurants).
3. Various tradespeople (plumbers, etc.) accepting cards, but through some sort of tablet or phone without a card reader at all. i.e. they basically put your card number in like it was a payment on a website, even if it's a custom app they're running.

Additionally, speaking of (1) above, even the savings of running card present instead of card not present might not justify the extra expense. Especially if customers complain about it and expect things to happen "like they always have".

Note: as with a lot of US stuff, YMMV.

 

[ecschwarz]

The problem with the toast go units is that they’re tablets where you not only pay but also place your order. The sit down chains and more formal restaurants will NEVER adopt those because they make the tables look cluttered, not to mention that the service is part of what they sell to the public. Therefore, unless those chains and formal places start adopting the small verifone and ingenico wireless card readers popular in Europe, Canada, Mexico, etc they’ll never move on past taking cards away as if it were still 1999.

As for the cost, that’s not the cost of shifting to new hardware it’s the cost of their idiocy. They could (and should) have shifted to wireless POS when they upgraded to chip, but they were stupid enough to buy the same wired pinpads used by stores instead. And they got away with it because in the US restaurants aren’t being held liable for fraudulent charges due to taking cards away, unlike restaurants in the rest of the world.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and your passion on the subject. I don't disagree that many restaurants took the lazy way out by either sticking with magstripe well past the liability shift or using the stationary pinpads.

However, I must respectfully say that your comment about the Toast Go units is incorrect. If you'd see from the link, they are handheld, portrait-orientation units about the size of most small wireless pinpads. Basically, replace the small screen and keypad with a larger touchscreen. There are two modes: one where waitstaff enter orders and one where customers pay. The waitstaff portion is not customer-facing and some servers do it back in the kitchen or on the larger Toast POSes, keeping the the tradition of them remembering orders and relaying them to the kitchen.

These are not at the table during the meal. The only time customers interact with them is if you're paying by a non-cash method (card, phone, etc.) Other than no receipt printing, they work exactly like the small Verifone and Ingenico units that you speak of. One place that recently switched to this setup didn't even bring things out until it was time to pay. Clover makes a similar one that is white and I've seen that get a lot of use in the Toronto area.

In an ideal world, there will be some regulation or requirements by the card networks, I think solutions like this are at least getting people in the US more used the idea of paying at the table.

 

[ecschwarz]

Additionally, speaking of (1) above, even the savings of running card present instead of card not present might not justify the extra expense. Especially if customers complain about it and expect things to happen "like they always have".

I think that more than anything is why we haven't seen a bigger push in some areas. To most of the population, magstripe is fine, EMV chip is inconvenient because it takes longer to read, and as most credit cards (and many debit cards) have zero liability, the worst thing that can happy is an inconvenience of the bank refunding the amount and issuing you a new card. (I know that doesn't always work and debit is riskier, but I just don't think most people care.)

 

[tmiw]

I think that more than anything is why we haven't seen a bigger push in some areas. To most of the population, magstripe is fine, EMV chip is inconvenient because it takes longer to read, and as most credit cards (and many debit cards) have zero liability, the worst thing that can happy is an inconvenience of the bank refunding the amount and issuing you a new card. (I know that doesn't always work and debit is riskier, but I just don't think most people care.)

I actually run into restaurants pretty regularly that tap my physical card for me instead of inserting. (You can tell as the name on the receipt is something like "Visa Cardholder" instead of your actual name.) That does in theory make Apple Pay possible, but of course as the contactless at the restaurant is more for the servers' benefit than the customer's, it's a pain for the customer to use. And possibly enough of one where most probably wouldn't bother.

IMO, from the perspective of the networks, they seem to be happy as long as contactless gets used at all. And since Apple Pay and the like are used a lot less often than physical cards even in more mature markets, they may not be wrong to not focus on having non-card form factors (like phones and watches) work 100% the same.

In an ideal world, there will be some regulation or requirements by the card networks, I think solutions like this are at least getting people in the US more used the idea of paying at the table.

I don't really see anything ever happening in the way of regulation, especially since only Mastercard has "mandated" the end of magstripe thus far (and the mandate is pretty weak, too, since it's only at the issuer level and not until close to the end of this decade). I've been wrong before, though.

 

[lartola]

I appreciate where you're coming from, and your passion on the subject. I don't disagree that many restaurants took the lazy way out by either sticking with magstripe well past the liability shift or using the stationary pinpads.

However, I must respectfully say that your comment about the Toast Go units is incorrect. If you'd see from the link, they are handheld, portrait-orientation units about the size of most small wireless pinpads. Basically, replace the small screen and keypad with a larger touchscreen. There are two modes: one where waitstaff enter orders and one where customers pay. The waitstaff portion is not customer-facing and some servers do it back in the kitchen or on the larger Toast POSes, keeping the the tradition of them remembering orders and relaying them to the kitchen.

These are not at the table during the meal. The only time customers interact with them is if you're paying by a non-cash method (card, phone, etc.) Other than no receipt printing, they work exactly like the small Verifone and Ingenico units that you speak of. One place that recently switched to this setup didn't even bring things out until it was time to pay. Clover makes a similar one that is white and I've seen that get a lot of use in the Toronto area.

In an ideal world, there will be some regulation or requirements by the card networks, I think solutions like this are at least getting people in the US more used the idea of paying at the table.

Oh sorry about that. I must have confused the toast go with the tablet-like devices found at casual places such as chilis or olive garden. Then toast go is a great solution for the fancy restaurants, here’s to hoping they adopt those or the verifone or ingenico ones soon.

 

[lartola]

I don't really see anything ever happening in the way of regulation, especially since only Mastercard has "mandated" the end of magstripe thus far (and the mandate is pretty weak, too, since it's only at the issuer level and not until close to the end of this decade). I've been wrong before, though.

But there is also the liability shift for merchants not using chip to process payments, which is what already led most of them to upgrade. The problem is that it was incomplete: for restaurants it should have also included the requirement to stop taking away any cards. Because it didn’t, every restaurant in the US took the lazy and idiotic approach of purchasing a wired pinpad instead of wireless card readers and now they have to spend even more if they want to switch to pay at the table. Since most of them aren’t willing to make that expense, US restaurants will remain stuck in 1999 for at least another decade.

 

[lartola]

I think there are a few factors involved:

1. Wireless terminals (at least from traditional players) still being way more expensive than they should be--especially since chip and signature makes them not strictly required.
2. Online shopping being way more of a thing by the time the US finally transitioned (vs. a lot of other places). That effectively made stuff like paying online in advance (e.g. for pizza delivery) and QR codes on restaurant receipts more viable than they would have been elsewhere.

Those seem to explain the following that I've experienced, anyway:

1. Pizza delivery generally NOT having wireless terminals at all. You either pay with card online at the time you order, or cash when they arrive.
2. Restaurants generally not having pay at the table (or if they do, it's either a QR code thing or something like Toast or Square geared towards smaller restaurants).
3. Various tradespeople (plumbers, etc.) accepting cards, but through some sort of tablet or phone without a card reader at all. i.e. they basically put your card number in like it was a payment on a website, even if it's a custom app they're running.

Additionally, speaking of (1) above, even the savings of running card present instead of card not present might not justify the extra expense. Especially if customers complain about it and expect things to happen "like they always have".

Note: as with a lot of US stuff, YMMV.

On (1), do note that it isn’t always chip and pin that makes the wireless terminals necessary. Mexico, for example, was chip and signature until 2018, but the wireless terminals were required at restaurants because taking cards away at restaurants was included as part of the liability shift for them. US regulators seemingly ignored that security risk and only required restaurants to use chip like all other merchants, so they took the lazy approach to upgrade to chip.

Also, I’ve noticed that many merchants do use portable standalone card readers, but they never use them with wifi or cellular connectivity; instead, they hook them with an ethernet cable. So I guess what’s too expensive in the US isn’t the device itself, but rather the use of wifi or cellular connectivity.

 

[tmiw]

But there is also the liability shift for merchants not using chip to process payments, which is what already led most of them to upgrade. The problem is that it was incomplete: for restaurants it should have also included the requirement to stop taking away any cards. Because it didn’t, every restaurant in the US took the lazy and idiotic approach of purchasing a wired pinpad instead of wireless card readers and now they have to spend even more if they want to switch to pay at the table. Since most of them aren’t willing to make that expense, US restaurants will remain stuck in 1999 for at least another decade.

Considering that contactless usage in the US was in the single digit percentages prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, I actually don't fault the restaurants for not bothering to prioritize that. As long as they got to avoid the EMV liability shift, wired terminals were basically good enough.

Additionally, considering that the priority of the networks is to get contactless used at all, the fact that the wired terminals restaurants did install still had the needed hardware built in helped with that. Restaurants could very well have convinced the various POS and terminal manufacturers to produce US-only chip hardware without NFC support en masse instead (similar to the magstripe readers on the sides of POS displays pre-EMV), making even servers tapping cards for customers impossible.

On (1), do note that it isn’t always chip and pin that makes the wireless terminals necessary. Mexico, for example, was chip and signature until 2018, but the wireless terminals were required at restaurants because taking cards away at restaurants was included as part of the liability shift for them. US regulators seemingly ignored that security risk and only required restaurants to use chip like all other merchants, so they took the lazy approach to upgrade to chip.

On that note, IIRC the networks tried to get rid of tip adjust (which would have forced restaurants into pay at the table/counter minus a PIN requirement or other government legislation) but there was enough of an uproar that they still allow it for the US. I suspect an actual PIN requirement (as extremely unlikely as that would be) or government legislation requiring cards to be run in front of customers (also unlikely) might run into the same resistance. And considering how much most merchants in the US hate cards in the first place, I don't think anything that could make surcharging for card use (or going back to being cash only) even more likely to happen is good business practice.

Also, I’ve noticed that many merchants do use portable standalone card readers, but they never use them with wifi or cellular connectivity; instead, they hook them with an ethernet cable. So I guess what’s too expensive in the US isn’t the device itself, but rather the use of wifi or cellular connectivity.

I could see cellular connectivity being kind of a hassle (after all, cell plans are more expensive here than a lot of other places), but Wi-Fi to a DSL, fiber or cable connection shouldn't be a huge deal if you live in anything approaching a metropolitan area. It might even be less of a hassle than running wires everywhere if your storefront is small enough.

 

[MisterSavage]

And you don’t mind having your card out of your sight for several minutes? I’m entirely uncomfortable with that by now, besides it’s an outdated procedure that’s been abandoned everywhere but the USA.

Honestly no. It's so commonplace here in the USA and the very few times I've had fraudulent c charges on my CC bill I never had to pay for them. Not saying it's good practice that places do that. I'd much rather prefer to pay with Apple Pay.

 

[echopulse]

While rare, I've eaten at some pretty expensive places before. And at least one or two of those brought the terminal to the table at the end of the meal, so it's hardly something that only supposed "lower end" places do.

That said, I still maintain that pay at the table is pretty uncommon in the US no matter what kind of restaurant it is. If a restaurant offers some kind of pay at the table at all, more often than not it's some QR code you have to scan on the receipt (and hope the web interface works well enough to let you use Apple Pay inside Safari on your phone). Which is better than nothing, don't get me wrong, but it's still not ideal.

Rare? I just listed 16 sit down resturant chaines, each with hundreds of locations that take contactless payments at the table. There are probably more I don't know about.

As far as the liability shift, many restrants did not upgrade equipment, and ignored the mandate. I know of a few chains that still only take magstripe cards. I know a few more that only recently upgraded to chip readers in the last few months. It's probably because card fraud is probably rare at resturants. It's more common at gas stations and convenience stores.