Microsoft has no vision regarding Windows

[317342]

I absolutely understand people who need to run Windows but not the ones who want to.

Linux, ChromeOS, even the luddites still running their Amigas make far and away more sense to me than anyone who evangelizes Windows.

 

[skaertus]

I absolutely understand people who need to run Windows but not the ones who want to.

Linux, ChromeOS, even the luddites still running their Amigas make far and away more sense to me than anyone who evangelizes Windows.

I do not know why.

I think Windows is a great platform, very useful and practical. Windows interface is great and window management is best in class. The way I see it, the only desktop operating system that is a worthy rival to Windows is macOS; Linux does not come close. Yes, people need Windows, but that should not make it less likable. I do not get all these bad feelings towards Windows. Perhaps people associate Windows with work or with Microsoft in the 1990s. Or perhaps people just love the underdogs. Go figure.

 

[diamond.g]

I get the software compatibility issue, but they should still start fresh sooner than later. Add some back compact layer or whatever for people who need it, or keep Windows 11 alive in some way.

Windows runs legacy software via compatibility shims already. Drivers for older hardware is going to be the sticking point going forward. We all saw how much flack Vista got for changing the driver model.

 

[Ethosik]

Loads of recent computers may have TPM. But by default it is turned off in the BIOS.

Technically I believe every Ryzen CPU and Intel 6th or 7th generation CPU and later supports TPM 2.0. Unfortunately motherboard manufacturers or OEMs either didn't add support in the BIOS or left it disabled by default in many models. Also MS only officially supports Intel 8th gen and Ryzen 2000 series or later with Windows 11.

Although I suspect if the computer came with the Pro or Enterprise copy of Windows 10. It probably had TPM enabled for Bitlocker. That's just an assumption.

For any computer that came with the home version of Windows 10. There was no reason to add TPM support. Let alone enable it. So, it's hit or miss.

Even techie users are having a hard time figuring out if their motherboard supports TPM or how to turn it on. As it's not listed in the specs. Even the manual just has vague information on enabling TPM. I've looked through my manual on my month old build. There's two vague entries about. One is to enable TPM one is about a TPM header location. There's no mention that I can use Intel TPM with a CPU only. If I didn't know this was possible. I'd be searching for a TPM module.

Some are screwing up their Windows install because they installed in Legacy mode.

I had to update my BIOS to see the option. Even still, there are three options. Its quite confusing what I need to change to get it to work. You can't expect the general user to even go into BIOS to change their settings. I am a tech geek and its a bit confusing to me. WHY three options in my BIOS? Its not a simple check/setting flip.

 

[Ethosik]

many PCs now a days don't have any bloatware and the simple solution is just to format and reinstall - which is something that has been recommend for years for bot the PC and the MAC.

Windows 10 itself comes with a lot of bloatware. My start menu is filled with app recommendations that I am NOT interested in. There are a lot of Debloat Windows 10 scripts out there.

 

[Ethosik]

Microsoft is stuck in a hard place, in that backwards compatibility is their main selling point. They can't leave the past behind like Apple does, because people depend on Windows being able to run old software.

They are two different paradigms, and there is room for both. I have both an iMac and a Windows PC on my desk, and I use each for different tasks. I like them both. If Microsoft were to do a massive update to Windows that breaks backwards compatibility and modernizes it to look and work like MacOS, I'd have no reason to run Windows anymore. Their customers depend on the legacy support.

This would have been the perfect opportunity to start fresh though. Windows 10 for the longest time was supposed to be the "last version of windows". Windows 11 would have been the perfect place to start fresh - Windows 10 would be around for legacy and business use for several years.

 

[maflynn]

Its quite confusing

This is one complaint that seems to resonate amongst many hobbyists. There's little to no standard way of how to configure the bios. Also some makers have implemented the Bios better, with clear cut definitions of what each setting does. My motherboard maker's bios (gigabit) is horrible. Basically the description next to enabling/disabling fTPM is that it enables or disable fTPM and doesn't really provide any details. While you can surmise what the setting does, there's other configuration items in the BIOS that you need to google on your phone since the description just says the basic.

Windows 10 itself comes with a lot of bloatware. My start menu is filled with app recommendations that I am NOT interested in. There are a lot of Debloat Windows 10 scripts out there.

My Razer, ThinkPad and home built machine had little, and while there were some "recommendations" those were not installed. That is, its one thing to have candy crush sitting on your SSD and quite another just to see it recommended, imo. Now Dell has a reputation for installing a lot of bloatware that has a significant impact on battery life and cou performance. That's not the case with a recommendation.

 

[Ethosik]

This is one complaint that seems to resonate amongst many hobbyists. There's little to no standard way of how to configure the bios. Also some makers have implemented the Bios better, with clear cut definitions of what each setting does. My motherboard maker's bios (gigabit) is horrible. Basically the description next to enabling/disabling fTPM is that it enables or disable fTPM and doesn't really provide any details. While you can surmise what the setting does, there's other configuration items in the BIOS that you need to google on your phone since the description just says the basic.


My Razer, ThinkPad and home built machine had little, and while there were some "recommendations" those were not installed. That is, its one thing to have candy crush sitting on your SSD and quite another just to see it recommended, imo. Now Dell has a reputation for installing a lot of bloatware that has a significant impact on battery life and cou performance. That's not the case with a recommendation.

Bloat does not always mean installed. If I need to move my mouse farther to avoid "recommendations" that still slows me down and is considered a bloated experience.

 

[Falhófnir]

This would have been the perfect opportunity to start fresh though. Windows 10 for the longest time was supposed to be the "last version of windows". Windows 11 would have been the perfect place to start fresh - Windows 10 would be around for legacy and business use for several years.

They've tried this repeatedly and failed though. (Windows RT, Windows 10S, Windows 10X)

 

[Ethosik]

They've tried this repeatedly and failed though. (Windows RT, Windows 10S, Windows 10X)

And Windows 11 is subsequently going to be a very very VERY slow rollout (hopefully not considered a failure) due to these insane requirements - TPM and 8th gen CPU.

 

[Falhófnir]

And Windows 11 is subsequently going to be a very very VERY slow rollout (hopefully not considered a failure) due to these insane requirements - TPM and 8th gen CPU.

When there's even the suggestion you can't run all Windows software on whatever device Microsoft is trying their luck with it seems to really spook people off of said product, and that combined with Microsoft's attitude that if it's not an automatic roaring success within 2 years it's not worth their while has really boxed in options for Windows at this point.

I think the best Microsoft can do at present is to successfully fold Arm support into W11, so they are able to keep pace with new hardware trends that are now open to Apple and Google with the Chromebook. That should at least help to keep Windows relevant for general consumer computing, which is where I think they're going to really come under pressure from Apple Silicon Macs and Chromebooks.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I have no idea why so many people are still so anti-Windows

It does what it does very well.
It's flexible, fast, and since Windows 10 it's been incredibly reliable for me.

I personally prefer a few things about macOS, but I use both daily and truly don't understand the hate for Windows anymore.

It was different a few versions and many years ago.
In the last 5-7 years I've had almost nothing to gripe about with Windows honestly.

 

[raqball]

I have no idea why so many people are still so anti-Windows

It does what it does very well.
It's flexible, fast, and since Windows 10 it's been incredibly reliable for me.

I personally prefer a few things about macOS, but I use both daily and truly don't understand the hate for Windows anymore.

It was different a few versions and many years ago.
In the last 5-7 years I've had almost nothing to gripe about with Windows honestly.

100% agree...

I think part of the problem is that people buy cheap Windows machines that are loaded with bloat, have low performance and low build quality... The combo will make for a very bad user experience..

Buying a quality Windows machine will alleviate most of the problems..

I also think people are stuck in the past where Windows was not so great.. I'm looking at you Vista, ME and Win 8. Lastly, this is a Mac / Apple centric forum.

Windows 10 is solid and IMO on par with macOS and in some cases, better...

 

[grmlin]

Windows runs legacy software via compatibility shims already. Drivers for older hardware is going to be the sticking point going forward. We all saw how much flack Vista got for changing the driver model.

It’s not like they are not already axing a huge part of their customer base by making TPM mandatory. You just have to do it at some point and people will have to replace their 2 yo printer then. That’s how it goes

 

[317342]

I do not get all these bad feelings towards Windows.

Oh, my goodness. I'll give you three (3) that were driving me nuts throughout the pandemic...

(a) Compatibility. Here's an easy one: try using multiple screens/monitors with different resolutions in Windows 10 (e.g., 1080p screen, 720p TV or projector, etc.). --Let me know how that goes, that alone could convince anyone.

(b) Speed. For my workflow, I have a Dell laptop from my work, running i7, 16GB RAM, etc., it works but just barely--throttles constantly (high fans, hot chassis, etc.) under load, a tantrum with multiple screens, anti-virus constantly needs to be updated, defragmenting is still a thing, updates sometimes need multiple reboots, etc. --Seriously, who the F has time for any of this?

Now, that fancy Dell with Windows 10 quite a bit newer yet has nearly the same specs as my 15" MacBook Pro (mid-'17) that just turned four, and the differences are night-and-day on everything from booting it, waking it, typing on it, etc. -- From days-to-weeks-and-sometimes-months I leave the MacBook Pro running on the original boot, sleeping and waking as needed, and have no issues; however, the Dell will have nothing short of a full blown conniption of I plug in a banal 1080p external monitor or a 720p television set.

(c) Death-by-updates. My favorite thing to do with Windows is leave the machine off for several months (e.g., Summer break, vacation, etc.) then boot it for a project in the fall, and have it go through a gazillion software updates, not to mention the "Your computer will restart in 10 minutes" messages. The machine has only been off for a few weeks, sometimes over the summer, and it's like I had just bought it all over again--updates, updates, updates. Christ, one would I have nothing better to do than watch Windows go through another restart after it just completed one on the previous update.

Honorable Mention: I love being asked to "authenticate" my Enterprise edition of Windows every six months or so, and have to call my IT dept to get it re-re-re-authenticated because it's not seeing the main enterprise server (because I'm working remotely). I love having to setup a VPN so they can remote access/control to update the authentication key and I can work. --Again, who the F has time for any of this? Plus, I just love those endless pop-ups about "Windows Authentication...your license will expire in two days...you will lose access...etc.etc."

Whether it's a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro or even a cheap Chromebook, I have never had to deal with this nonsense. Frankly, who on earth has time to deal with any of it?

 

[Jack Neill]

I miss my Lumia's. Another MSFT product with no vision..

 

[Bubble99]

I absolutely understand people who need to run Windows but not the ones who want to.

Linux, ChromeOS, even the luddites still running their Amigas make far and away more sense to me than anyone who evangelizes Windows.

Well there millions and millions of companies running software not to say people at home for there job working at home or set up that has to run type of software.

So if you do not use photoshop at your work place or school you could use some thing like GIMP or other similar photoshop clones. The same with Microsoft office.

Many people are locked into windows because of there work place or school. And these apps cannot be installed on other OS.

 

[raqball]

Oh, my goodness. I'll give you three (3) that were driving me nuts throughout the pandemic...

(a) Compatibility. Here's an easy one: try using multiple screens/monitors with different resolutions in Windows 10 (e.g., 1080p screen, 720p TV or projector, etc.). --Let me know how that goes, that alone could convince anyone.

(b) Speed. For my workflow, I have a Dell laptop from my work, running i7, 16GB RAM, etc., it works but just barely--throttles constantly (high fans, hot chassis, etc.) under load, a tantrum with multiple screens, anti-virus constantly needs to be updated, defragmenting is still a thing, updates sometimes need multiple reboots, etc. --Seriously, who the F has time for any of this?

Now, that fancy Dell with Windows 10 quite a bit newer yet has nearly the same specs as my 15" MacBook Pro (mid-'17) that just turned four, and the differences are night-and-day on everything from booting it, waking it, typing on it, etc. -- From days-to-weeks-and-sometimes-months I leave the MacBook Pro running on the original boot, sleeping and waking as needed, and have no issues; however, the Dell will have nothing short of a full blown conniption of I plug in a banal 1080p external monitor or a 720p television set.

(c) Death-by-updates. My favorite thing to do with Windows is leave the machine off for several months (e.g., Summer break, vacation, etc.) then boot it for a project in the fall, and have it go through a gazillion software updates, not to mention the "Your computer will restart in 10 minutes" messages. The machine has only been off for a few weeks, sometimes over the summer, and it's like I had just bought it all over again--updates, updates, updates. Christ, one would I have nothing better to do than watch Windows go through another restart after it just completed one on the previous update.

Honorable Mention: I love being asked to "authenticate" my Enterprise edition of Windows every six months or so, and have to call my IT dept to get it re-re-re-authenticated because it's not seeing the main enterprise server (because I'm working remotely). I love having to setup a VPN so they can remote access/control to update the authentication key and I can work. --Again, who the F has time for any of this? Plus, I just love those endless pop-ups about "Windows Authentication...your license will expire in two days...you will lose access...etc.etc."

Whether it's a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro or even a cheap Chromebook, I have never had to deal with this nonsense. Frankly, who on earth has time to deal with any of it?

a) Now try using multiple monitors (without trickery) with an M1 MacBook and let me know how that goes..
b) Pre M1 chip MacBooks suffered simular fates.. Does the i9 ring any bells?
c) So you expect to leave a machine off for several months and there be no updates? C'mon man... Something tells me that if there were no updates after several months then there'd be complaints about the lack of bug fixes and security patches..

The grass is not always less greener on the other side. Unless of course you want it to be for whatever reason..

 

[diamond.g]

Oh, my goodness. I'll give you three (3) that were driving me nuts throughout the pandemic...

(a) Compatibility. Here's an easy one: try using multiple screens/monitors with different resolutions in Windows 10 (e.g., 1080p screen, 720p TV or projector, etc.). --Let me know how that goes, that alone could convince anyone.

(b) Speed. For my workflow, I have a Dell laptop from my work, running i7, 16GB RAM, etc., it works but just barely--throttles constantly (high fans, hot chassis, etc.) under load, a tantrum with multiple screens, anti-virus constantly needs to be updated, defragmenting is still a thing, updates sometimes need multiple reboots, etc. --Seriously, who the F has time for any of this?

Now, that fancy Dell with Windows 10 quite a bit newer yet has nearly the same specs as my 15" MacBook Pro (mid-'17) that just turned four, and the differences are night-and-day on everything from booting it, waking it, typing on it, etc. -- From days-to-weeks-and-sometimes-months I leave the MacBook Pro running on the original boot, sleeping and waking as needed, and have no issues; however, the Dell will have nothing short of a full blown conniption of I plug in a banal 1080p external monitor or a 720p television set.

(c) Death-by-updates. My favorite thing to do with Windows is leave the machine off for several months (e.g., Summer break, vacation, etc.) then boot it for a project in the fall, and have it go through a gazillion software updates, not to mention the "Your computer will restart in 10 minutes" messages. The machine has only been off for a few weeks, sometimes over the summer, and it's like I had just bought it all over again--updates, updates, updates. Christ, one would I have nothing better to do than watch Windows go through another restart after it just completed one on the previous update.

Honorable Mention: I love being asked to "authenticate" my Enterprise edition of Windows every six months or so, and have to call my IT dept to get it re-re-re-authenticated because it's not seeing the main enterprise server (because I'm working remotely). I love having to setup a VPN so they can remote access/control to update the authentication key and I can work. --Again, who the F has time for any of this? Plus, I just love those endless pop-ups about "Windows Authentication...your license will expire in two days...you will lose access...etc.etc."

Whether it's a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro or even a cheap Chromebook, I have never had to deal with this nonsense. Frankly, who on earth has time to deal with any of it?

Sounds like you have issues with your IT shop and what they load on their corporate systems more than you have issues with Microsoft directly.

 

[One2Grift]

Windows runs a lot of businesses in the world. One cannot dismiss the staggering impact Windows has had for 25 years or more (Windows 3.1 onward). It’s impact on the home PC is a VBFD too.

Today Windows is seeing decaying market share of the home/consumer market. Phones, tablets, ChromeOS(big time), others and a MacOS increase (small it has been)are pushing the once ubiquitous Windows into being simply one possible buying option(that’s like their work pc that maybe gives them tro7ble).
Imho Microsoft’s utter dominance was also part of the ultimate problem. They were the only game yet they turned out some bad! Versions.
windows also was the bane of many average users who just wanted it to work. Windows became synonymous with the blue screen of death, the staggeringly slow pc bogged down by bloated registries and Willy nilly app installing (and a host of niceties installed via the web, knowingly or unknowingly). An average user knows not much except this is what they see happens with their Windows.
ultimately Microsoft never was an average user favorite. Some of the techies liked it, but for average users it was what you had to use. Microsoft never got that Google or Apple cachet (rightly or wrongly). And if things keep up you’ll see them at businesses and gov. But they’ll be the also ran outside work except gaming (Microsoft sees that decay fix as cloud based pc and apps).

 

[Ethosik]

Now try using multiple monitors (without trickery) with an M1 MacBook and let me know how that goes..

Uhh I use a M1 Mac mini with two monitors and it works just fine? If you are mentioning the M1 MacBook because the Thunderbolt controller only supports one external display, this is just a problem with M1. And Apple has been getting bad press about it too. And yes, there are some laptops that you must run a second display through USB - like the M1 MacBook currently.

 

[raqball]

Uhh I use a M1 Mac mini with two monitors and it works just fine? If you are mentioning the M1 MacBook because the Thunderbolt controller only supports one external display, this is just a problem with M1. And Apple has been getting bad press about it too. And yes, there are some laptops that you must run a second display through USB - like the M1 MacBook currently.

The post I was responding to said this:

(a) Compatibility. Here's an easy one: try using multiple screens/monitors with different resolutions in Windows 10 (e.g.1080p screen, 720p TV or projector, etc.).

So yeah, do that on an M1 MacBook without any trickery..

 

[raqball]

Sounds like you have issues with your IT shop and what they load on their corporate systems more than you have issues with Microsoft directly.

I think he/she just wants Windows to be bad.. Everything listed happens on MacBooks as well.

• Throttling and heat? Check! The Intel MacBooks suffered from heat, fan noise and throttling.
• Multiple monitor issues? Check! Even the previous non M1's had issues with this.
• The update complaint is just an odd one. If there were no updates then that would be the complaint.

It's a Mac / Apple centric forum so I expect those types of comments but take them with a grain of salt as they are non-realistic and are generally based on blinded fallacies..

 

[thejadedmonkey]

I was really looking forward Windows 11, but its just a reskin of windows 10 with new sounds, wallpapers and new start menu that they ripped of 10X. I installed the leaked Win 11 build on my spare PC
and yeah it was just that Windows 10 but with a new theme.

Windows 11 looks good on the surface but as you dig deeper into OS. You find design styles dating back 30 years.

I know this is a leaked build of Windows 11 and not final but so far it looks like MS has no vision with Windows.

Windows on ARM is still horrible compared to ARM macOS and Windows 10X is dead.

Windows still relies on win32, UWP apps. Overall MS is all over the place with Windows. No consistency at all.

That said I am waiting for June 24. Still like MS software and Apple software unlike Google they both invest long-term.

I mean isn't that all macOS Big Sur is? And Monterey? They're all iterative, and have a fresh coat of paint along with some tweaks under the hood to improve performance or support new hardware. In Windows 11's case, it looks like it results in a faster computer due to the execution management taking advantage of newer CPU features, as well as providing a secure boot validation similar to the T2 chip in macOS.

Windows on ARM officially doesn't offer a consumer SKU, but by all reports it's vastly improved on the Surface Pro X.

Windows 10X was never announced, but all reports point to a lot of the research done for it having made its way into Windows 11.

The Win32 API is good. There's no need to replace it, just like there's no need to replace the Objective C underpinnings of macOS.

They've tried this repeatedly and failed though. (Windows RT, Windows 10S, Windows 10X)

Huh? Windows RT and Windows 10S are just a locked down version of Windows 10 compiled for ARM and x86, respectfully. At the time, I used RT on a Surface RT and it was just like normal Windows 8. Likewise, Windows 10S is Windows 10 Home, but locked down. The tradeoff is I can eek out 24 hours of battery life with S mode enabled, so I keep it... 24 hours man, it's insane for an x86 CPU.

Uhh I use a M1 Mac mini with two monitors and it works just fine? If you are mentioning the M1 MacBook because the Thunderbolt controller only supports one external display, this is just a problem with M1. And Apple has been getting bad press about it too. And yes, there are some laptops that you must run a second display through USB - like the M1 MacBook currently.

I have a maxed out 15" Macbook Pro and I can't connect multiple displays without using multiple cables. That's a limitation of macOS. Any semi-recent Windows PC (including, ironically, my Macbook Pro running Windows via boot camp) can handle two 4k displays via a single cable.

 

[Ethosik]

I have a maxed out 15" Macbook Pro and I can't connect multiple displays without using multiple cables. That's a limitation of macOS. Any semi-recent Windows PC (including, ironically, my Macbook Pro running Windows via boot camp) can handle two 4k displays via a single cable.

That is completely false. I had a 15" MacBook Pro and was able to connect two displays to it. I used it all the time in Clamshell mode with two monitors.

macOS is NOT the issue here. As the 16" MacBook Pro has this support:

• Up to four displays with 4096‑by‑2304 resolution at 60Hz at over a billion colors